Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Owning an Alembic => Fun Stories => Topic started by: andrewknight on January 10, 2005, 11:13:54 AM
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I have been comparing tube amps using my Tribute as the test instrument. I have tried the Mesa Mark IV, Rectifier Single and Triple, and a used DC-10. Of Fender, I have tried the Reverb Pro, King, Blues Jr, and Vibro King custom. With Marshal, I don't remember what I tried, but it was higher end and I didn't jive with it too much.
To my surprise, based on what I've read here, I simply liked the sound of the Fenders better than the Mesa equipment. The sounds I was looking for were basically summed up by three sounds: 1) Clean jazzy tone 2) Garcia Althea tone 3) Reggae tone akin to say Black Uhuru Chill Out era.
Perhaps it's the style of music that I like to play, or the sound that I am used to as we have a Fender amp in the house already, but I found the Fenders to have a better punch, better clean and less processed tone to my ear.
My ears may be no good, and I guess all this is very subjective, but I'm wondering if other Alembic guitar players have a clear preference (I know Bill likes Mesa Mark III's). Perhaps I just didn't know enough about how to shape the tones on the Mesa. What I did really like about the Mesa is the ability to set up 5 separate tones activated by footswitch. That was really handy.
I'm going to go back and try the Mesa vs. Fender stuff again and will spend more time at this comparison before I make the purchase. I spent about 45 minutes with the Mark IV so far and I think I will go with a combo.
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
What a wonderful dilemma to have?
I have an old Fender Twin that I keep in my bedroom as a practice amp. I liked it when I bought it in 1970, and I still like it. It?s kind of like an old friend?. It requires very little thought on my part.
My main amp is a Mesa DC-5 basically the same as that DC-10 with 50 watts instead of 100, 1X12 instead of 2X12. I?ve been supplementing its sound with an SF-2 lately. I also use a ? Mesa cab with Celestions. If I need more, I?ll slave into the Twin. If I need more than that, I?ll go see my therapist??
Sound is such a subjective thing, I think it?s more like; whatever you like is the right gear for you.
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Andrew:
I also have a blackface Pro Reverb (late '60s) that I bought from a friend many years ago. I played it for a number of years until I got my Mark III. (Other Fender amps I own: Princeton Reverb; '50s Champ; a Frontman 25 (solid state practice amp), and even a mini tone master (9v battery, size of a couple a cigarete packs). So, obviously, I like Fenders too. In any of these amps the speakers make a difference. I have JBLs in the Pro - extremely clean, present tone, but forget about any dirt or grit.
I find the Boogie far more flexible. I can make it sound a lot like a Fender, but there is no way to make the Fender do what the Boogie can do. In many ways the Boogie is similar to an Alembic - the controls take a litle time to really master, but once you do there are almost no limits. Also, you might want to check out a Mark III or even a Mark II. The controls on the Mark IV can really be overwhelming. Don't get me wrong - any of the amps you mention are great. I just have found that the Boogie is incredibly versatile. The other advantage of the Boogie is size. It fits in sports cars where Fenders and Marshalls fear to go.
(Of course there is not a similar weight advantage. Boogies are heavy mothers. Especially the hardwood ones, like mine. But the hardwood is SOOOOO beautiful - matches my Electrum. Problem? get a collapsing handtruck!) Either way, I think you'll be happier than running through the P.A.
Bill, tgo
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I've been playing with this guitar player recently who has a Vox Valvetronix. He's getting a very nice tone. It's the first time I've played with someone using this amp.
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I play through a Vox Valvetronix at home. The variety of tone is pretty impressive and makes use of actual valve in the power amp section. The amps that it models are:
Fender (Blackface 2x12, Tweed 1x12, Tweed 4x10)
Marshall (JTM 45, Plexy 100, JCM800, JCM900, JCM2000 (DSL) )
Mesa (Dual rectifier)
Soldano (SLO 100)
Dumble Overdrive special (Clean chan & Lead chan)
Vox AC15, AC15TB, AC30, AC30TB (The power amp switch in class A)
I especially like the Dumble models, but the Fender models sound great too and I'm able to dial in appropriate settings for my acoustic guitar as well as my Skylark.
I tried one out at the suggestions of Valentino and Susan and I was very impressed. Like my Alembic, the more I tinker with it the more tone I discover.
Tom
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Tom; the built-in effects seem to be real nice too. I bet it sounds great with your Skylark.
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Tom; I thought you might enjoy hearing this. It's a clip from a CD the guitar player I'm playing with made before I met him. The Vox was used on it and the other songs on the CD (samples of which are at the site). I think the tone on this clip is really nice.
http://www.alienmusicclub.com/upload/songs/trashmanSample.mp3 (http://www.alienmusicclub.com/upload/songs/trashmanSample.mp3)
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Andrew~
Like you said, it's very subjective. But, what I find funny is that everyone who swears by a Mesa, also owns or has owned several Fenders (myself included)..... When they came out w/ the Dual & Triple Rectifier's they won over some Marshall devotee's as well. Let your ears make the final desicion.... With your guitar (with it's filters and effect-loop cababilities) I would look for a very clean & true amp, and put together a nice effects rack to take care of the tone shaping...
-Mike
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I agree with Mike. A good quality tube amp with an effects loop(combo if you're more comfortable with it). Rack up whatever effects you like and just let your Tribute sing! I've found that there's a great deal of value in the discovery process....
Enjoy
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Also, being as it is a Tribute, it's a fair thought to utilize its loop (as Mike said). I've never owned a guitar with an on board effects loop, so it's a little hard for me to wrap my brain around it. Maybe one day I'll have that pleasure.....
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Thanks Dave - the guitar tone in the mp3 is, indeed, really nice. I've found that I can get very familiar classic tones from the Valvetronix (which would be great for guitarists in bands that cover a variety of music) as well as dialing in interesting combinations of amp models and effects that are pretty unique sounding (to me, anyway). I spend most of my time playing through the very clean models with few if any effects, and let my Skylark's voice ring through. I do love to push the boundaries though, and see how far away I can get from the ordinary.
Tom
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Mike:
The perceived Fender/Mesa connection is really not surprising when you consider that Boogie started out by hot-rodding Fender Princetons. In fact, the name was bestowed by Carlos Santana who played an early hot-rodded Princeton and said Man, this little amp really boogies. The rest is history. I certainly relate to my Mark III as a Fender on steroids. Hey, a new song inspiration: The Balco Blues! LOL
Bill, tgo
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This is probably a dumb question but I can't remember ever hearing a guitar player mention using a pre-amp and power amp. Does this exsist in the guitar world?
Sam
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Sam;
Our fellow club member Mike, whose nic is Pace and who posted previously to this very thread, uses a Mesa Studio preamp and Mesa 90/90 power amp.
(Message edited by davehouck on January 13, 2005)
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Yeah Sam, we do exist, believe it or not A modular setup seemed ideal & it was the next logical step for me. Lately I've been doing showcase gigs where we're playing one 45-90 minute set and its more practical to bring a combo. My cabinets are small (1x12s) but its kind of a hassle to keep an eye on 4 pieces of equipment vs. 2 when your loading in and out of a club, ya know?!?
Bill~ As far as Mesa's birth and evloution, it's also interesting to look at how long it has taken for Fender to play catch up. Aside from master volume combos in the 70's, I think the first Fenders to have features like pull bright or vol/gain/master gain stages that were the Twin II & Deluxe II's in the early 80's (still no funky 5-band eq!!).
-Mike (my last name is) Pace .... lol....
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Dave/Mike
Thanks, I was just curious. Seperate amp/preamp seems pretty common in bass racks but I've not heard of it mentioned in guitar racks and was wondering if component systems were available.
Sam
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Actually, Jerry Garcia used essentially a pre-amp/power amp set up for years. He used the pre-amp section of a Fender Twin Reverb and put it into a MacIntosh 2300 power amp I believe.
Bill, tgo
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So did Bobby Weir. I believe that was during the days of Alembics direct invovlement with the Deads live sound.
Mike
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Was it the earlier, or later years that Jerry used the Fender preamp?
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Andrew:
I copied the following from the dozin.com web site (a GREAT site for info about the Dead and their equipment)
72- ... By this point, his silverface Fender Twin amp was already a central part of his sound. He continued to use the preamp from the Fender amp through 1993. From the late '70's to about 1993 he didn't use the power amp & speakers of the Fender, instead using three JBL D120/E120 speakers in a vertical box powered by a McIntosh solid state amp (note that this probably made the power amp Class A, which is not the Class AB power amp that the Fender normally has). It was miked with a Sennheiser 421 mic.
The site also has the rig that Jerry went to in the 90's.
Bill, tgo
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Interesting to note~ there's a part in the GD movie where there's what appears to be a F2-B sitting on top of his cab.... A lot of the late 70's - early 80's JGB shows he used a Mesa combo. Eventually the guts of the silverface got paired with the guts of a blackface & you'd see those together in a custom cabinet fliped on it's side next to his cab..
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On top of his cab? That would be 35 feet in the air! :-) In the GD movie, each instrument is running through its own PA with no intervening amps, mics or mixing boards.
The blackface and silverface were setup as a primary amp and a backup. The silverface got the most use.
What I always wondered was, why 3 JBLs? How was it run off the channels of the 2300? Why not 4? or 2? Weird.
Edwin
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I run my guitar through 3 12's. Why? I have no idea..... It just worked out that way... Weird?
Sure, why not? It sounds good to me... Oh yeah, the sound must have something to do with it. Or mayhaps; The three bears fit in somewhere; 2 12's? Not enough umph.... 4 12's? Too heavy... 3 12's?.... Just right!...... Who's that blonde girl? Yeah.... Weird..... LOL!
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Andrew: Just my two cents, but have you tried some of the boutique amps? For the price of some of the mass-market stuff (or sometimes for less), you can get hand-made hard-wired stuff that'll blow the more common stuff away quality and tone-wise. For instance if you're into the vintage Fender vibe, Victoria, Dumble, Koch, Straub, etc. make a super nice amps. For a Marshall sound, Germino, TopHat, Straub, Splawn, etc. are hard to beat.
My point here is that it is ultimately your money and your choice. Play the hell out of EVERYTHING before you spend.
I've spent over 25 years trying to find the right tone myself, and I think I'm finally there. I've settled on a modded silverface '79 Fender Twin Reverb 2x12 combo (in a Sultone custom mahogany/maple oversize cab with Weber VST JBL D-120 clones) for clean stuff and a Custom Straub Cantus 50W Marshall plexi-style head and custom 2X12 cab for the dirty stuff. See my thread in the Misc. section of the club for pix and info if interested.
Whatever you go with, good luck and enjoy!
(Message edited by kmh364 on February 11, 2005)
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I still haven't made the purchase. I have decided to simply play through a Fender Blues Jr. that provides an adequate sound until I can convert my garage into a sound studio. Then I'll get serious about sound system and amp selections. I figure I might as well listen to what I am going to purchase in the place I'll play the most before I buy the stuff. Thanks for all the input everyone! I do have to say that I really like the sound through the little Fender...it is a tube amp combo and the Tribute really makes it sound good!
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Andrew - you might look into Two Rock amplifiers http://www.two-rock.com/ (http://www.two-rock.com/)
Check out some of the sound clips on their site.
Tom
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Have you considered a relatively cheap, mass-market Fender-style combo amp that is available everywhere and has great tone?
Peavey's Classic 30! Tweed cab, mostly tube, spring reverb and awesome sound!
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Bill Boekhoff over at Sultone.com did an awesome wood cab for a Classic 30 that needs to be seen to be believed. Either way, that little amp has vintage tone for days, and is about as portable as it gets for an amp that can gig out.
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Being a guitarist of many years I have gone through so many amps it's unreal. Many of these were Boogies and the only one's I would recommend are the Mk 1, Mk3 Simul Class and the Blue Angel. I have two amps now, a Badcat Cub II for small gigs and a Victoria Low Powered Twin for bigger venues and these just blow away the mass market manufacturers for clear clean tone with depth, and break up ever so nicely. They also take to pedals extremely well. I would agree with kmh 364, try some of the Boutique makers before plunging for a Boogie as they are not that much more expensive.
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Mark III Simul Class YEAH!!! I use it at the studio (reheasal) set at 15 watts (I suspect it would be hard to find a louder 15 watts anywhere) and at 75 watts for gigs. Two amps in one! Or more like six amps in one - 3 channels, 15/75 watts. The main complaint with the Mark III is the shared gain control for the clean rhythm (Fender) and crunch rhytm (Marshall) channels. Solution? I had Boogie take out the direct out pot in the back (I never used it) and replaced it with a gain control for the crunch rhythm channel. Problem solved. Great amp. But I don't think you'd go wrong with the others mentioned above either.
Bill, tgo
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Oh yeah, the only thing about the MkIII Simul Class is that it is not feasible how something so small weigh's so much (especially with the EV speaker as I had). But they are probably the most versatile amp with that 'special' tone. One thing though, I found the the Class A setting almost as loud as the A/B setting despite the reputed difference in wattage; and sounded sweeter. You can also use either 6L6's or EL34's for more tone variation and, if you get the switcheable graphic eq, you can get three channels and set a great lead boost tone for all these by switching in the eq.
If you are seriously looking at a Mk4 I would think again and track one of these down.
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Alan:
Did you have the Hardwood cabinet? Talk about HEAVY! Can you say handtruck required? As heavy as it is, though, I have NO COMPLAINTS. It is well worth it for the sound I get (and the fact that it fits in my Nissan 300ZX). And the beautiful cabinet loves to hang out next to my Alembic. They are truly a lovely looking couple. I use mine with the Theile bottom - great low end projection! The EQ can be set three differnt ways: OFF at all times; ON when the amp is in lead channel mode only; or ON at all times. Very versatile indeed. I also find the simul class settings to have more tonal than volume differences, at least at lower volumes. The A 15 watt setting has a sweeter tone at lower volume, but the AB 75 watt setting sounds great at higher volume when used for the back line at a gig. Even then, though, I rarely set the master volume past 3!
Bill, tgo
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Yep, mine was a really nice flamed Koa with the wicker front. This was the only amp I wish I hadn't sold as the Simul Class/Graphic/Reverb/EV/Hardwood versions are as rare as hens teeth and it had a special sound. I got a real good offer which I took but.....
Still, of all the amps I have ever played/owned the Bad Cat Cub II is the best sounding, but it's only a 15 watter (but incredibly loud like the Simul Class low setting). However, it's a single channel amp so the sacrifice for that 'little extra' sound quality over the MkIII is a whole lot less versatility. Forgot to mention that the graphic and reverb, as well as the three channels are all foot switchable with the three diiferent boxes so you can lay them out however you like and mix into a pedal board layout. How cool was that.
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Alan:
I never heard of Bad Cat so I googled 'em. Wow, $2500 for a 15 watt combo! It better sound good.
Bill, tgo
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Bill
Hunt one out and try it, but beware; you just might start to want one.
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Just my $0.02:
You don't have to find a wood cab Boogie to have one...buy a tolex covered one, save the dosh and have Sultone make you a new wood cab. You pick the size, wood, grille cloth, hardware, and driver(s). You may even get one that looks and sounds better than the original wood cabbed Boogie.
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My 2 1/2 cents......
A Roland Jazz-Chorus amp with a few good analog pedals will get all the good Jerry tones.... and you dont need a forklift to get it to the gig. ;~]
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I haven't checked in in this thread for awhile. I guess the answer to my original question is simply: buy what you like the sound of after trying a whole bunch of things.
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Andrew:
Let us know how you made out. I for one am interested in what you ultimately settle on. Good luck in your quest. There is no right answer, only what you prefer and what makes you happy. Enjoy!
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And my .02 cents worth: I have a MKIII simul class blue stripe and a MKIV combo and have played Fenders for decades. I love the MKIV combo most of all. It's open back design give you a good stage referance and the footswitch gets you 3 great sounding channels. I also put in 4 6V6 tubes. It sounds great for rock and blues. They also sound good when turned down, unlike my friends Marshall. They are back killers, though. I'd get a normal one just to save weight.
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I second the Two-Rock motion. Give em a look. I have a Custom Reverb and it is just awesome. Kimock has been using one for a few years, and he can really nail that Garcia tone. Also, the guitarist is Weir's band is using one. Don't be intimidated by the price, you can usually piuck one up used for around $2000. It's a lot of dough, but well worth it. Try one, and you'll know what I mean. Aftr all, your playing an alembic guitar, don't let the flaws of an inferior amplifier prevent you from getting the tone you want.
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Just to follow up the above post.....
The Boogie stuff is great, and so are most of the boutique amps out there. When I say inferior, I'm talking about some of the newer, cheaply made amps.
Just wanted to clarify so I don't get flamed.
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Andrew:
Just a crazy thought...have you looked into any of those clean-only jazz amps out there? Taking the Jerry Garcia and/or David Gilmour approach of using a clean amp and then adding color via efffects (stompboxes) could likely yield great, great tone! Here's a couple of very different choices from what's been discussed here just for sh*ts and giggles:
Kendrick makes a real, real nice real-wood cabbed all-tube, hand-wired (by designer Gerald Weber) combo designed for huge clean headroom and pure tone (althought it is VERY pricy):
http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/kendrick.html (http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/kendrick.html)
The favored jazz combo these days appears to be an Acoustic Image head combined with a Raezor's Edge cab (much more reasonable than the above):
http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/acousticImage.html (http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/acousticImage.html)
http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/raezersEdge.html
Heritage (nee Gibson's old Kalamazoo MI factory run by ex-Gibson employees) just came out with a line of all-tube, hand-wired amps as well...the Kenny Burrell model looks particularly interesting:
http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/heritageAmps.html (http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/heritageAmps.html)
Just some food for thought...variety is the spice of life, right? LOL!
Good Amp Hunting!
Cheers,
Kevin
(Message edited by kmh364 on September 25, 2005)
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Oh, and one other thing:
Reeves Amplification is selling all-tube, hand-wired, all discrete made in Britain Dave Reeves-designed Sound City-era Hiwatt-clone amps that are just like the originals. They sell direct (S&H included, exc. speaker cabs!), and the prices are better than the Fernandes's Corp. Hiwatt oferings...cosmetics (exc. the nameplate) are identical:
http://www.reevesamps.com/reeves_amplification-6-6_001.htm (http://www.reevesamps.com/reeves_amplification-6-6_001.htm)
Particularly interesting is the signature 100W head that encorporates David Gilmour's personal preferred mods...even though they can't use DG's name due to Hiwatt's licensing agreement with DG:
http://images.andale.com/f2/121/111/10123725/1050174480362_Reeves100wtop.jpg (http://images.andale.com/f2/121/111/10123725/1050174480362_Reeves100wtop.jpg)
Thanks go to Dr. Jonathan Levine (jalevinemd) for turning me on to these!
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I've hard great things about the Raezer's edge cabs too, but you might have some trouble getting one. Apparently, a couple of weeks ago, the guy who makes them was murdered. A very sad story.
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The Acoustic Image / Raezer's Edge combination is very nice. Customers with that set up tend to be jazzers. The RE cabinets come in some interesting configurations like 1 x 8, 2 x 6, 2 x 8, etc.
Also makes for a very portable rig - the AI heads weigh between 3 and 7 lbs. The REs are between 20 and 30 lbs.
I haven't heard it in a rock setting with stacks of effects.
And, yes, Rich Raezer did pass away a few months ago - but there is still some stock available in the dealer channel.
David B.
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Sorry, duplicate post.
(Message edited by kmh364 on September 25, 2005)
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According to the above link (i.e., J. Hale Music), Raezer's Edge has resumed production.
Apparently, Rich Raezer was allegedly murdered by his own son, ghastly as that may sound.
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From the RE site:
Arrangements have been made to resume production of Raezer's Edge Cabinets. All models will be manufactured using the same materials, specifications and workmanship standards used by Rich Raezer.
Production will resume shortly, so keep watching for updates!
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Ah David,
I didn't realize you were an Acoustic Image and Raezor's Edge dealer. What do you think of them personally?
For now, I'm using my old silverface Fender Twin as my jazz amp for my Heritage Golden Eagle archtop jazzbox, but I'm always looking to spend some more hard-earned disposable income on my toys, LOL!
I have to admit I'm a bit sceptical about a S/S guitar amp as I am a tube (valve) guy, but the prospect of not having to haul that heavy-*ss Twin around with my bad back and knee(s) has peaked my interest.
Cheers,
Kevin
(Message edited by kmh364 on September 28, 2005)