Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: xarkon on December 31, 2015, 07:35:27 AM
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In preparation for becoming an Alembic owner - I have a used Darling guitar on the way - I've been reading lots of posts in the forums.
I skimmed through the ones on oiling the fretboard (referenced here: http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=210), and thought I would make another suggestion.
Fret Doctor/Bore Doctor. See here for the Fret Doctor page: http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm) and here for the chemist who originally developed this for woodwind instruments: http://doctorsprod.com/cbuy/supplies/wood-care (http://doctorsprod.com/cbuy/supplies/wood-care)
Disclaimer: I have no financial interest/relationship with either party; I have met and talked to Dr. Henderson at a conference.
I came across this product because I play clarinet. Clarinets and oboes are usually made of a wood called grenadilla or African Blackwood; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_melanoxylon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_melanoxylon). It's related to rosewood. To help prevent cracking and other issues, I regularly swab the bore of my instruments with bore oil. The problem is that many of the bore oils sold are actually mineral oil and probably do far more harm than good.
I started using Bore Doctor on my guitar and bass fretboards out of simple association. Hey, it's good for grenadilla; and grenadilla is like rosewood, so why not? And have had excellent results.
Some other woodwind repairmen use pharmaceutical grade almond oil or other similar combinations. See http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com (http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com) (and some of the articles on the site) for more information.
YMMV and all that; but just thought this information might be useful to forum members.
Dave
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Dave:
Welcome to the club and congrats on your new Alembic! If you poke around here some more you will find other threads on this topic. I, like many others here, use pure food grade lemon oil, as recommended by Alembic.
Bill, the guitar one
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Go to a Natural Food Store and purchase Citrus Limonum which is Pure Lemon Oil. Or take a look in the Natural Foods aisle in the regular market where you shop & it might be there. Another alternative is to google where to buy Citrus Limonum Congratulations on the purchase of your Darling & don't forget that we here love photos!
Chalie
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Hi Dave; welcome to the club, and congrats on the Darling!
And Happy New Year!
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I order mine online from Boyajian. Their website is boyajianinc.com.
Bill, tgo
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I buy mine in the aroma therapy section of Whole Foods. Just look for the pure essential lemon oil.
All of this reminds my that my basses are due for an oiling. With all of the rain and grey we've had for the past week the smell of lemon oil should be a good pick me up.
Keith
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Whole Foods is where I get mine as well .
Aura Cacia brand 100% pure essential lemon oil .
Wolf
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Dave, thanks for the heads up on the Fret Doctor! (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm) I think I learned more off that one page than I ever had from any other source (including what hand rubbed actually means). I ordered the small bottle of the Fret Doctor.
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Fret Doctor is all I use. Heard about it many, many years ago over on the Les Paul Forum. The guys swear by it, so I gave it a shot and haven't looked back. Does a wonderful job conditioning the wood and darkens it up a bit. FWIW, it's quite a bit cheaper ordering it direct from the Doctor's site and not going through www.beafifer.com (http://www.beafifer.com).
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Thanks, I'll keep that in mind for when I need more, in 2045 or so. I did have the momentary thought that it might not be such a good thing, supporting people who obviously go bonkers over fifes and piccolos. Can you imagine what it must be like for their families? Mommy, can you make daddy stop making those noises? It sends the dog into convulsions and makes my ears bleed, especially when he plays along with my Justin Bieber CDs!
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I bought a bottle of Old English lemon oil for the shop like 20 years ago... I've had it for so long the label finally disintegrated. I have no idea what the shelf life is on that stuff, probably should replace it. Heck, it still soaks in and smells lemon-y... more like coconut really. Just used some last night on a dried up old mandolin fingerboard.
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I Remember back in the day when I saw luthiers use NAPHTHA for cleaning fingerboards to clean off a very dirty specimen in particular.
Lemon oil was applied after the naphtha cleaning. I often saw the naphtha used to get gunk off around the frets .Zippo lighter fluid also was manly naphtha.
Does anyone else remember that ? It seems that Naphtha is not available in California anymore.
Wolf
(Message edited by sonicus on January 04, 2016)
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I got a good sized tin of naphtha at a paint store, but that was a few years back. It's the best for finger gunk removal, also good for some varieties of sticker adhesive residue.
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Olde English lemon oil isn't lemon oil, it's a petroleum product and its use is discouraged for fingerboards. It puts too much gunk into the grain of the wood.
I was an oboist for about 10 years. I used bore oil on my Lor?e regularly and it was one of the few I knew of back then that didn't have any cracks in it. Good stuff.
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Naphtha (a 4,000 year old name, from Ancient Persian by way of the Greeks) is a loose term adapted by chemical companies in the 20th century to refer specifically to benzene, the most carcinogenic substance known to man.
From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects)
quote:Benzene increases the risk of cancer and other illnesses. Benzene is a notorious cause of bone marrow failure. Substantial quantities of epidemiologic, clinical, and laboratory data link benzene to aplastic anemia, acute leukemia, and bone marrow abnormalities. The specific hematologic malignancies that benzene is associated with include: acute myeloid leukemia (AML), aplastic anemia, myelodysplastic syndrome (MDS), acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL), and chronic myeloid leukemia (CML).
The American Petroleum Institute (API) stated in 1948 that it is generally considered that the only absolutely safe concentration for benzene is zero.
The US Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) classifies benzene as a human carcinogen. Long-term exposure to excessive levels of benzene in the air causes leukemia, a potentially fatal cancer of the blood-forming organs. In particular, acute myeloid leukemia or acute nonlymphocytic leukemia (AML & ANLL) is not disputed to be caused by benzene. IARC rated benzene as known to be carcinogenic to humans
It bears repeating: acute myeloid leukemia or acute nonlymphocytic leukemia (AML & ANLL) is not disputed to be caused by benzene.
Naphtha/benzene is better known as lighter fluid (check that Ronsonol label, Zippo users. See benzene listed anywhere?)
OSHA and NIOSH (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha) set the legal limit of exposure to naphtha/benzene at 100 parts per million over an 8-hour period. That's an insanely miniscule amount.
Slightly higher levels of exposure (1000 ppm) are categorized as Immediate Danger to Life or Health. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDLH)
Having said all that, I worked in shipyards for many years, where exposure to benzene and other toxic compounds was rampant.
We used fire blankets made from asbestos when cutting or welding near anything that could be damaged by heat or sparks. Benzene is a primary component of cutting oil and machining lubricants, and we used tri-chlor (another ghastly poison) to clean it off parts.
Plus, I smoked. Luckily I never used a Zippo, but only because a stray spark could land in your chest pocket and cause it to explode, not something you want to happen inches from your heart.
Everybody knows my love for lemon pledge, and god only knows what's in that stuff.
My point is that I'm not merely being pedantic about this. I'm genuinely concerned about the dangers, especially because I've been exposed to such huge amounts myself.
Read the Doctor Frets link in the OP, which discusses the different types of oils and waxes used on fretboards, and their limitations (Greg, your Old English lemon oil might be just lemon-scented mineral oil, according to that article.)
Be careful. As Dr. Gonzo put it (ironically, as it turned out):
quote:Kill the body, and the head will die.
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Forest ,
Thanks for your informational post. The irony with the Naphtha ban in California is that Acetone and various other solvents were left on the self.
Take a look @ The MSDS on Acetone;
https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/00140.htm (https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/00140.htm)
I also worked in industries where I was exposed to various substances and chemicals that are now considered toxic and undesirable . it is interesting that the elimination of such various chemicals are being forbidden in some states and are still readily available at the corner hardware store in other states .
Here is an interesting article; http://www.dipyourcar.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12294.html (http://www.dipyourcar.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12294.html)
Wolf
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How often should one lemon up a fretboard?
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That's brings up a good question, what is the shelf life of pure lemon oil? I mean a very small amount goes a long way so much so that the tiny bottle I had after 3 years started to smell like what Gregory stated. More coconut than lemon. For the ~$5 I just replaced it figuring it will last a few years.
Not sure if I had to, just liked the fresh lemon.
Pete
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Old English has a small amount of lemon oil in it, but it's 90% petroleum distillates according to its MSDS.
Once a year is usually adequate. If you live in a really dry place (like a place where either the AC or the heater is on all the time (I'm looking at you, Chicago)), then it should be twice a year.
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I frequently used shellite naphtha based lighter fluid to refurbish rubber printer platens back in the day. It would strip off the oxidised rubber and refresh the grippiness. Last I checked I'm still alive.
When I was a kid of around 12yo my mate and I found a gallon paint tin full of mercury. We played with that stuff for weeks.
Back in the early 80's I would carry around radioactive isotopes on aircraft, in my car, at home and in my tool box.
Nothing like a refreshing dose of Carbon14 or caesium186 to get the old eyes to light up!
I really should go and check if I'm still alive!
Slawie
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I still can't find in all this whether Bore Doctor is for smooth-bores or rifled bores . . . sheesh !
Joey
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Thank You Mica,
Twice a Year then it is.
I guess I should update my frequency, (looking back from Chicago Home of The Blues or should I say a really dry place).
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I keep my lemon oil in the fridge. I recently finished my first bottle after around 6 or 7 years. It still was clear and smelled like lemon oil should. I have frequently picked up guitars that have probably not been oiled in 40 or 50 years. It's amazing how much oil these old ones can suck up!
Bill, tgo
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Slawie,
I used to use blanket restorer for the rubber backing on offset presses. It was mostly naphtha with some other stuff mixed in. It worked so well on the press blankets that I decided to try it to restore windshield wiper blades. I found I could get an extra 3 to 6 months out of them by using it.
Keith
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My bottle of Fret Doctor arrived! I discovered a bit of a conundrum (the Foghorn taught me that word. I think it's Latin for wtf?): while the Mighty Xarcon provided two links for Fret Doctor in the OP, you can only order it through be-a-fifer (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm), and I don't want to be a fifer.
I don't even want to support people who feel inclined to fife (fifists?) as it was outlawed in the Constitution (or should have been). Who wants to play an instrument that produces sounds that makes it feel like someone is forcing sewing needles into your eardrums?
We're bassists. We prefer sounds that feel like sumo wrestlers jumping up and down on your chest.
My point - as nearly as I can figure out - is that be-a-fifer (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm) page is the single most informative resource I've ever seen for information about fretboard care:
(http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/223740.jpg)
... Whereas it's impossible to even find Fret Doctor on the Doctor's own site! (http://doctorsprod.com/cbuy/supplies)
Nowhere does it say whether Bore Doctor is the same as Fret Doctor (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm), either. (I assume it is, but that's mostly because I'm a married man, so I assume a lot, like when I vowed; I do, how quickly that would be countered with oh no you don't!)
I discovered from that page that because I had treated my fretboards (37, at last count) with lemon oil that turned out to be lemon-scented mineral oil, and/or Pledge (the silicone-based polish discussed on that page), I have to get some Homer Formby's Buildup Remover (http://www.formbys.com/products/buildup_remover.cfm) to clean that crap off the wood before applying Fret Doctor, otherwise it won't penetrate!
If a lack of penetration is concern for you (you know who you are), you need Homer Formby (http://www.formbys.com/products/buildup_remover.cfm) and Fret Doctor! (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm)
It's also interesting that Fret Doctor (http://www.beafifer.com/boredoctor.htm) doesn't necessarily darken the fingerboard, it actually restores it to its original condition, which is darker (usually )
Grenade Oil (http://doctorsprod.com/cbuy/doctorsprod-grenad-oil) sounds interesting (use it on fifers).
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In the late 1970's I got a job through a guitar player in the band that I was playing in at the time working in a huge print shop that did Flexographic Printing . It was just supposed to be short term in between audio gigs and the such anyway I was hoping . I was given the job that no one wanted working in the Tank Room . My job was to clean press parts in huge vats containing wonderful chemicals such as MEK and Isopropyl Acetate and Sodium Hydroxide. I couldn't stand it and one day I felt so lame that I went to the Doctors office within the plant . He took a look at my throat and larynx and wrote out a statement declaring that the reaction the chemicals were having on me warranted legitimate reasons for an immediate medical dismissal from that job . That was just after 3 months or so . That guy did me a big favor getting me out of there.
Wolf
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I called the Doctor's Products customer service line prior to ordering my Bore Doctor. Previously I had used Fret Doctor but found that it is more expensive on the Be a Fifer website. According to customer service Bore Doctor and Fret Doctor are exactly the same.
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OK, so I'll get Bore Doctor, and I REALLY want some of that Grenade Oil ! ! !
Joey
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quote:I frequently used shellite naphtha based lighter fluid to refurbish rubber printer platens back in the day. It would strip off the oxidised rubber and refresh the grippiness. Last I checked I'm still alive.
I'm glad. But how's your grippiness?
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Naphtha and benzene are actually different compounds. In fact, naphtha is a mix of a bunch of crudely refined hydrocarbons based on their boiling points. Benzene is one unique ring structure. The permissible exposure limit for benzene is actually 1 ppm rather than 100. I wouldn't want to breathe naphtha all day, but it is definitely not nearly as carcinogenic.
(Message edited by hydrargyrum on January 06, 2016)
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quote:The permissible exposure limit for benzene is actually 1 ppm rather than 100. I wouldn't want to breathe naphtha all day, but it is definitely not nearly as carcinogenic.
I'm afraid you have it backwards. Admittedly, I'm a bit of a moron (just ask the Foghorn), but it seems to me that an exposure limit of 1 ppm is 100 times more toxic/carcinogenic than something with a limit of 100 ppm.
Especially when the American Cancer Society (http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/generalinformationaboutcarcinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens), the International Agency for Research on Cancer, the
National Toxicology Program, the Environmental Protection Agency, the CDC?s National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the National Cancer Institute (NCI) and the California Environmental Protection Agency (CalEPA) all consider benzene to be a Group 1/A: Known To Be A Human Carcinogen.
From http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927339 (http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927339)
quote:Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Classified A1 (Confirmed for human.) by ACGIH, 1 (Proven for human.) by IARC. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Classified POSSIBLE for human. Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Classified Reproductive system/toxin/female [POSSIBLE].
The substance is toxic to blood, bone marrow, central nervous system (CNS). The substance may be toxic to liver, Urinary System. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.
quote:I wouldn't want to breathe naphtha all day, but it is definitely not nearly as carcinogenic.
Thanks for attempting to clear that up.
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WD40 sprayed on a rag and then worked in to the fretboard and then wiped off with a clean rag or T shirt. Doing it for 30 plus years on the same guitars and it works fine. It also cleans up the frets very nicely.
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I have been using Howards Orange Oil for the past 10 years as recommended to me by Carl Thompson a while back. I used it on my oil finished Carl Thompson bass bodies and fingerboards. I have never had an issue using it. I also now use it on all of my Alembic fingerboards since 2013, including my new custom build. I apply it twice a year at the most and never let it sit to soak in more than 20-30 min before wiping it off very well. Great to know there are so many options, nice thread!
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I think we've got some wires crossed.
In your first post you quote that the PEL for benzene is 100 ppm, but this is in error. This is actually the PEL for naphtha. The PEL for benzene is correctly noted as 1 ppm, which is much lower than naphtha, and as you correctly state it is more toxic.
These numbers really refer to immediate exposure, and don't take into account the carcinogenicity of benzene versus aliphatic hydrocarbons. Paracelsus and his statement that the dose makes the poison has much truth, but even low doses of carcinogens can result in cancers years later that aren't associated with immediate exposure.
Naphtha and benzene are definitely not the same thing. Naphtha is one of many names for a hydrocarbon mixture that may be called mineral spirits, petroleum ether, petroleum distillates, or lighter fluid (just to name a few). Admittedly some light petroleum distillates may contain trace benzene, but it is quite low in concentration (typically much less than 0.1%). Here is a relevant article: https://www.aiha.org/aihce07/handouts/po129panko.pdf (https://www.aiha.org/aihce07/handouts/po129panko.pdf)
Edit: I see that I was mistaken, and the PEL for Naphtha is actually 500 ppm, vs the 1 ppm for benzene:
[https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_260900.html] (https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_260900.html target=_blank)
[https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_220100.html] (https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_220100.html target=_blank)
(Message edited by hydrargyrum on January 06, 2016)
[fixed the links]
(Message edited by adriaan on January 06, 2016)
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See? That's what happens when you marry someone far smarter than you: I was right and wrong at the same time, and didn't realize it until someone smarter than me pointed it out.
I subscribe to the Ameri-Zen koan; if a married man is alone in a Forest when a tree falls, is he still wrong?
Thanks for being cool about it. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. (I'm still not going to gargle with lighter fluid, though.)
I've been wracking what's left of my well-wracked brain to recall who told me that naphtha-is-benzene-is-lighter-fluid and I honestly don't remember. But I know one thing about them: I'll bet he was married.
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No worries, laboratory safety and environmental health happens to be my field.
Actually, there is a pretty good reason to make the mistake. The chemists of yesteryear all shared an interesting commonality that they had to speak german. The most advanced chemistry journals were published in german, and if you received a chemistry degree before the middle of the last century you were expected to be fluent enough to write and read chemistry journals. This rambling departure comes back to petroleum ether because the german name is petroleum benzin. Benzin sure looks a heck of a lot like benzene, but they are distinct. In fact, benzin is gasoline, which is also just a crude mix of hydrocarbons.
Another thing I wouldn't gargle with.
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Dr. Hibbert: Well, your cholesterol level is lethally high, Homer, but I'm more concerned about your gravy level.
Homer Simpson: Now, wait a second. You doctors have been telling us to drink eight glasses of gravy a day!
Dr. Hibbert: [laughs] Well, you're a little confused.
Homer Simpson: Oh, confused, would we?
Do not gargle with Naphtha. Got it!
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Hey I wanted to removed my humor above and post seriously, but I waited too long it seems. Sorry.
This post scared the crap out of me as I've been using Naphtha for years to clean my fretboards.
So glad it's NOT Benzene. Thanks for the info, and thanks for selling me my first Alembic 11 years ago Kevin! Loved that Skylark...
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Glad I could provide some relief, and a Skylark.
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When I change strings, I always remove one string and install the replacement. Then I remove the 2nd string and so forth. This is my understanding of lessening the tension shock of the neck. To oil a neck, I assume all strings must be removed. After oiling, when I restring with new Alembic strings (same gauges), what are the odds of the neck returning to the exact previous relief, or lack thereof?
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I've never had a real difference occur in the relief of a neck on an Alembic bass when I've changed the strings. It's such a fast process. I'm also a bit lazy and when I oil my fretboard I don't take the strings off just loosen them, oil, retighten and play for a couple of days before changing over to the new strings. I find that this keeps the excess oil and gunk I've missed when wiping down the fretboard off my brand new strings.
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Now that's a practical, good idea!
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My results parallel Hammer: I could never figure out a way to change them one-at-a-time and oil the fingerboard.
So I just take them all off, do the fretboard maintenance and then re-string. I got to admit that doing it with the old strings and letting the board fully absorb the oil and putting new strings a few days later is a smart idea.
I've never noticed in doing this that the neck relief changed appreciably on my basses. YRMV.
I'd posit that the laminations in concert with the 1/4 fingerboards are a stiffer unit than a typical neck. I run my fingerboards so straight that occasionally I need to re-introduce some relief, so I'll tune up to F# or G and leave it for a day or two, than cinch up the nuts to take up the bit of slack I've acquired. So going the other way, I'm not surprised that it would not instantly change for the 20 minutes or so when all five strings are off.
Joey
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what does YRMV mean?
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I, too, remove all strings at the same time and try to use the old strings for a couple of days after lemon oil treatment as the strings seem to pick up a little residue just after oiling. In my experience, removing the strings for 20-30 minutes for cleanup and oil treatment has never adversely effected the truss rod adjustment.
Bill, tgo
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Another one here that just takes the strings off to clean and oil the fingerboard. I've never had any problems with neck adjustments changing.
Keith
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I am very careful regarding too much truss rod adjustment. When I change strings is usually when I do my lemon oil fret board treatment. I have never had a problem with an over reaction from the lack of reciprocal string tension during the absence of strings on the instrument. In fact I prefer to leave the strings off for a few days, generally about 72 hours . If it appears that a truss rod adjustment may be justifiable I often loosen all the strings for 72 hours as well before I tighten the truss rod. Most of the time that really works for me . Less is more is often my approach regarding truss rod adjustments . When I actually do a truss rod tightening I do no more then a quarter of a turn at a time and wait 72 hours for the reaction .
Wolf
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Your
Results
May
Vary
I actually prefer '4 out of 5 doctors . . . Void Where Prohibited By Law covers a lot of ground. But then, there's always First Pull Up, Then Pull Down. And the ever popular Please Keep Hands and Feet Inside the Car at All Times. When I was dating, Must Be THIS Tall to Ride . . . . was a necessity. Carbon Monoxide May Be Present makes me nervous . . . . and an absolute instant guage of character: Only a Gibson is Good Enough. Tragic.
Joey
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Three words: Thompson's Water Seal. If anyone has the old original oil based formula, (NOT the new water based one), you have the best protection for a fingerboard ever. Probably a toxic mess, but man, one treatment with that stuff, and your fingerboard is highly unlikely to check.
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I pose this question ;
On a fingerboard that is of the unfinished variety , is it prudent to treat the fingerboard with protection such as lemon oil that will let the fingerboard breathe rather then sealing it ?
I have a few fretless necks that have been professionally finished epoxy coating like , but they were treated first for the conversion .
Wolf
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Daly's SeaFin was my goto gloss as a carpenter.
For Wolf's question,Stability is the goal,so whatever can keep that boat floating
The best method for one piece of wood in a certain environment might not hold if factors change
(ever bought a green acoustic from overseas?).
Does the Fog in SF keep things humid down there?
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Thanks for the response Elwoodblue ! I like that name SeaFin ! Yes , I keep a dehumidifier in my Studio , in fact it is running as I type this ! It is truly amazing how much moisture it collects . I certainly keep an eye on my certified hygrometer daily. I love to watch gauges it seems , ( this all started still as a child ) it keeps the boat a float , so to speak
Thank you very much .
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I built and maintained television transmitters for years so I've had my share of chemical, x-ray and radiation exposure, but parts of this thread reminded me of a favorite from Dire Straits . . .
Doctor Parkinson declared I'm not surprised to see you here
You've got smokers cough from smoking, brewer's droop from drinking beer
I don't know how you came to get the Betty Davis knees
But worst of all young man you've got Industrial Disease
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I am sure that the RF radiation from the Varian Klystron tubes in the UHF transmitters in my transmitter room day have not been the best medicine for me either . Industrial Disease brothers we are !
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Wolf! I knew there was a reason I liked you! Red Varian Klystrons - 5 feet of high voltage vapor-cooled particle accelerator capable of turning 30 watts into 60,000 watts with a bandwidth of 4.5 MHz. Talk about overdrive . . . and our job was to make it linear with no distortion
I wonder if there are any other television jockeys in the Alembic circle? You know Ron cut his teeth on transmitters in the Mid-west before joining Ampex as a design engineer?
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I have always enjoyed listening to and conversing with Ron on anyone of the many subjects that he is so incredibly well versed in .The broadcast background was mentioned a few years ago at an Alembic Gathering. Those are always most enjoyable !
Wolf