Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Owning an Alembic => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: pauldo on July 07, 2023, 04:22:39 PM
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Ed, welcome to the camp!
This is a great community, getting questions answered here is easy AND there is no such thing as a silly question*.
These instruments are designed to be adjusted.
Here is an important note:
Pickup height adjustment functions with screws and no springs. If you feel you need/ want to experiment with their height(s) proceed as follows.. Two diagonally opposed (and exposed) screw heads hold the pickup in position. Loosen these prior to adjusting height. In the opposite corners underneath the pickups are the height adjusters, turn them in (clockwise) to lower or turn them out to raise the heights. When done carefully snug the exposed screw heads to secure the pickup. SNUG is the key word, you do not want to over-tighten these (ask me how I know :-[ ).
*The question; “Is it wrong to desire more than one Alembic?”, as you soon will discover, is kinda silly.
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Thank you fo the heads up Pauldo. I figure I will video-ing the bass assembly prior to dismantling anything. Alembics appear to have very particular arrangements, and well designed builds.
Love it. I’m a tinkerer, and have learned the hard way many times(over tighten..oh yeah…) some recoverable, some painfully not.
Dont plan to be so brazen with this bass.
Can’t say how much I appreciate the well wishes and helpful hints.
Great place this is!
Will definitely update once the bass arrives.
Seriously nervous about it.
Please keep the help coming for this newbie!
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Welcome Ed! I look forward to seeing pics or videos of your bass. As you can guess from my handle, I'm a big fan of Spoilers.
Ken
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You've probably found these already, but in case you haven't:
Information Related to All Instruments (https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?board=7.0)
Joey's Post on Setting Up Your Bass (https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=311.0)
For what it's worth - My Alembic is my easiest bass to set up. You shouldn't have any problems, just follow the instructions.
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Thanks for all the info!
Sounds like set up is pretty much the same I follow with string height generally 3/32-4/32.
I have one Rick 4003 which is just under 3/32 and plays very clean up and down the neck. I have 3 of them, so i am used to the dual truss rod adjustments, but always love a good clear list to follow.
I am excited. Supposed to be here 1-5 tomorrow. Little concerned for its condition, but trying to keep from judging until its here. I keep my basses spotless and tuned all the time, so I realize that’s not always a shared practice. Just a bit of an obsession on my behalf for sure!
Hope to be sending some picture and video soon.
Again, thanks for all the guidance!
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Hey Alembic Club!
Wish I had a better story, but I suppose it could be worse...?
Where do I begin?
First, let me say that the seller has been nothing but cool and is selling a bass that belonged to his dad, who passed away recently.
That said, this poor thing has seen better days for sure.
I spent the better part of all day and night just to clean it, just to discover more substantial issues.
Here's my list to fix it up..
Top to bottom...
Tuners...poor shape, rusted, pitted and somewhat broken... need replacement Gotoh tuners.
Headstock..crack in laminate between Mahogany and maple layers... Headstock layers superglue and hope?
Neck, brass side markers covered by refinish neck issue? Not sure. This is suspect of refinish of bass, or fretboard issue...No idea whats going on here...Cleaned neck, fretboard and side...revealed the side dots...Took a long time to clean!
Brass, all tarnished and pitted...God bless Fritz polish...Looks much better now. Will post before and after.
Btw, the brass Saddle in the bass is an impressive chunk of metal. Wow. I was amazed taking it out of the bass of the mass of that piece.
Strings had rust on them...
Pickups, foam under decomposed, bridge pickup broken where PU was overtightened...replaced foam and replaced screw (wood screw replacement not correct, thankfully meal insert collet was still in cavity)
Nobs and electronics...(I will need help here.) Knobs have been replaced with anodized gold dome style knobs...Not sure how to remove.
Pots are loose, as is the output jack, and it appears that the surface mahogany is cracked under one of the pots.UGH!
Looking for help from Club>>>
4 pots, top is push pull with detent? I'm not sure of function, 2 have detents, 2 plain rotational pots.
Worked until about 230am, became bleary, so called it.
Will post pictures before / after hopefully tonight, which I'm sure will help with description.
In hindsight, maybe not the best purchase, but the bass, along with my 5 string experience look forward to forward progress!
As always, thank you for you help and any suggestions!
Will be working on it again tonight
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Hey Ed,
Congrats on the purchase. Most of those issues sound cosmetic issues so don't make yourself crazy. How does it feel? We hope you have a great time playing it.
Just a couple comments and we'll need to see some pics before we can go further. First, I think a Spoiler model traditionally only had a pickup selector switch, a volume control, a low-pass tone control and a Q-boost switch. Here's info on a typical Spoiler:
https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=280.0 (https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=280.0)
The knobs... If these are one-piece of metal with no removable cap and you see no set screw then we have to presume they are a "press-fit" style and should be removable with a tug. Just be careful. The pickup selector switch's knob should be different from the others because that shaft is much smaller than the pots.
The pickups... I'm sorry to hear you've got a cracked one and I don't know what to suggest other than thinking about a replacement. Normally there is no foam (or springs) in the pickup cavities. As Pauldo described in detail above, they are meant to be held in place by adjusting the two opposite-corner screws below the pickup to the height you prefer, then gently snugging down the two remaining screws above the pickup to secure it in that position.
Pics when you can - at any stage of your cleanup. You can't shock us because we've seen it all. :o
Jimmy J
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Hello JimmyJ,
Thanks for the info and the encouragement.
Just put the bass back together after pretty much stripping it down to clean. Strung up the bass, adjusted truss rods(pretty tight) backed off the tension to the point of no tension to get proper adjustment. adjusted bridge height and nut to spec.
The nut has a low string adjust screw and a high string adjust screw with a middle set screw covered with solder. (Pict)
Not sure if this is a mod or adjusting for a problem? Believe the E/A/D string is a little lower than .22 feeler gauge and there still is some fret buzz, but trying to compensate by raising the nut string height for low B /E adjust.
Plugged it in and checked out the electronics.
Looks like knobs are press on ( will probably buy a knob puller to replace, because of top mahogany crack) my best guess of the function of the four knobs, left to right, (TOP) Volume with push / pull low cut, pickup balance with detent, (bottom) LOW freq EQ, HIGH freq EQ.
All the pots are loose as is the output jack.
The pickups both work well, and it appears that the cracked pickup has been superglued and is stable.
The really good news is that once set up and tuned and plugged in, the bass sounds and feels pretty great.
The caveat being that I think the scale of the DR strings I put on is not correct, too long?
The neck headstock crack is the biggest potential issue I can see. My thought is thin super glue to stabilize / crack, thoughts?
Going to post pictures later, files are too large.
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a few more...some of the progress photos
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Last few for tonight. last picture is of the 85 Rick and the 86 Spoiler resting for the night :)
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Thanks for the pics. You're doing a fine job on the tune-up.
A couple things...
First, that split in the headstock laminate is concerning and you should standby for some more qualified comments about how to deal with that.
Second, the nut is meant to be raised using the outer two adjustment screws and only gently held down by the center screw which in your case has been filled with solder. My guess is that the previous owner didn't understand that loosening that center screw would allow you to raise the entire nut and their A-string got too low so they used solder (or silver solder?) to fill and recut that slot. Do you have a blow-torch? It would be nice to free that tiny bolt and regain adjustability. I don't know how you got that piece off the bass because you have the nut, the plate, and the center screw with its threaded insert which is meant to remain in the wood. You could also order a replacement nut but you may need to do some metal work to make it fit.
Lastly, there have been some changes in your electronics cavity and I can't quite understand what's happened there. The pic below I found on the 'net is a standard Spoiler setup so you can see it's quite different from yours. It's possible these were all factory mods but I really don't know. Maybe Mica can eventually find the paperwork on this bass so we know how it was built and can figure out what has changed.
Keep up the good work!
Jimmy J
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Yep, that's the one I was expecting... it sure is a nice old bass. Koa basses are special! The very first Spoilers were solid Koa, theres your Alembic trivia note for today!
I'm wondering if that headstock got broken in transit, as I don't remember seeing that in the ad, or reading any mention of it. And this is a very big deal... it's a fairly easy thing to fix, but drastically affects value of the instrument, and should certainly have been disclosed before the sale.
That being said, it's simply a glue and clamp fix, that any competent repair shop should be able to perform. Squeeze some Titebond in there, and clamp firmly between two cork-lined cauls overnight. *DO NOT use CA glue (krazyglue/superglue/etc.) for this repair. Titebond wood glue.
The original pickups remain; that's good. Looks like the rest of the electronics have been swapped out for some aftermarket parts. Not the end of the world, these are replaceable secondhand, and you can play as-is until you source some. (this is kinda' what I did with my Persuader 5-string that had no original parts left at all...)
Again, Welcome to the Club. Nice to have another Ed around! Take your time and fix that old Dragon up. It'll give you years of joy.
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The subtle ‘tiger stripes’ on that top are beautiful!
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Hello,
Thanks for all the help and kudos!
I get the feeling that there has been a few embellishments done to the bass, so trying to return it back to what it once was.
The headstock crack is odd for sure. Didn't see it in video, or in the many pictures I received.
The owner was very helpful to send pictures of my requests. I took a picture of the headstock as well and its hard to see unless looking at angle, I suppose it could have also been damaged in transport, but it doesn't look particularly fresh.
Either way, I'm putting my rolling forward hat on...
Ok, will go Titebond.
Done a fair amount of wood work so believe I can handle this, plus Titebond is much easier to work with!
Electronics will suffice for now, until I can assess the pots and remove the knobs. I see some spoiler hardware on Reverb?
I found a image of a black spoiler with 4 knobs similar to this one, but its the only one I've seen in this configuration.
Have some new tuners, knob puller, and some screws inbound. the back access panel is also a poor replacement, screws don't line up, so will replace with better material.
The nut issue I can take a look at...it just kinda fell out when I took off the strings, which was disconcerting!
Included the shot I took of the headstock...Cant really see the crack head on.
Another question, the top is Koa, body mahogany, yes?
I get why you all love these basses. Well made, elegant, and somewhat easy to work on.
In addition, there's the great body of knowledgable folks who support these instruments...that's priceless!
Many thanks
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I'll be glad to help you out if I can, Ed. No idea where in the land you are, but if you email me directly (use the little envelope next to my picture there...) I can send you a couple cam clamps and some adhesive backed cork to make a couple cauls with.If you've done some woodwork, I might can talk you through it. If by some chance you're within a drive of me, I'd be glad to fix it for you. My Persuader 5-string is a near-perfect copy of your bass, so it would be a great model to make cauls from if needed.
If you're gonna' give it a try; first, Get the tuning machines off and out of the way. Nut too. Logo and script. (you already had these off I think) Then make sure the break will close up... wiggle it gently, to make sure nothing foreign is trapped in the break that will prevent the grain fibers from bonding right back together and making a perfect glue joint. Pry it open, again very gently, and squeeze in the glue. Pinch it back together and wipe the excess glue. Place cauls on the headstock face and back, clamp firmly in place, I like to alternate the clamps to spread pressure evenly. You should see a nice bead of glue squeeze out all the way around. Wipe this as well as you can... dont worry too much, we'll get the rest of it after it dries. Some of it will draw back in as it cures. Leave it clamped up for 24 hours. It'll set in 30 minutes, but leave it under full pressure to cure. Unclamp and clean-up. Evaluate whether a finish touch-up is needed. Re-assemble. It takes an hour to set up and 10 seconds to do. Then a long wait, with years of reward. ;)
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Hello Ed,
Thank you for the help.
I will include my glueing of the headstock plan.
Please note I did not remove the tuners or logo, but the hand clamps I used did not make contact with that space.
I did remove the nut (all parts) and used the felt for chair feet to protect the finish.
Used type 3 Titebond, and left clamped for 24hrs.
First inspection looks great! will get back to it later today, I think...
Question about the nut.
Does the flat Part of the three piece nut supposed to be glued to the neck.
As I pointed out, the nut, the flat base the set screw and the metal insert all fell out when replacing strings...
Thank you for the help.
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Quick description...
For the pawl, I used a razor blade to gentle open crack :-\
Once in place, I used straightened heavy staples to hold space open in three locations.
Used a bush to get Titebond into crack, and clamped using hand clamps with felt chair protectors for 24hrs.
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Hopefully that will take care of the headstock issue. I guess you'll know when you get it all up to pitch.
The nut - I believe that thin flat piece is usually tacked in place with a drop of glue but it's not completely necessary because it's all held down tight by the pressure from the strings. That center screw and its threaded insert would normally also hold it all in place but you'll need to think about what to do there because of your solder-filled A-string slot.
You're making good progress!
Jimmy J
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Well done. The main thing is get glue to it, and positive clamping pressure. Its unfortunate that it got cracked, but a solid repair won't break again. If you got good squeeze-out, that headstock will be fine.
You asked earlier about the body core wood... Mica will confirm when/if she locates the build information on your bass, but I'd bet a new set of strings it's a mahogany core with a koa top. A fine combination.
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Thanks for the information Jimmy J
Sorry, didn’t mention that I used a solder gun to remove the solder. Thankfully the screw underneath and threaded insert all work as hoped.
Testing the neck will be tomorrows adventure.
Will give it another day to cure.
Thanks again.
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Hello Ed!
Yeah when I clamped it there was a very uniform amount of glue that beaded out.
I was happy to see this, but felt confident that the brush did a good job of getting the glue deep into the space.
I believe you are right about the body and wood top…see what Mica says…
Good to give it a day to rest…It’s had quite the overhaul since arriving
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Yes, the neck should be repaired by a qualified luthier. The good news is that it's not too hard to fix, a combination of the right glue and a good clamp. Also, when done right, it should be stable (glue is stronger than wood).
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Hey Club!
Could not agree more GTRGUY, and have deferred other projects to a local luthier, but I felt confident in taking this on.
I do like doing my own work, and have finished and built basses since fretting a bass in my teens...
Think I've gotten better, but certainly defer to masters for anything too major.
Most of this seemed primarily cosmetic, but cracks lead to bigger issues, and considering chaos dynamics, every potential thing matters.
It's been 2 days since putting on tension on neck, and playing it for a while last night(my first 5 string, so I'm a little lost with the low b) but its staying in tune, despite a worse for wear B and D tuner.
Ordered some Gold Gotoh tuners(seemed to go well with brass) and some gold strap buttons.
Not usually a gold fan...will see how it looks...
The electronics cover is clearly not original, black plastic, misaligned screws, not correct thickness...
Any thoughts on replacements?
Here are some updated pictures showing joint, crack repair, and backplate.
Thanks again
E
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If you remove the backplate you should find the threaded inserts for the plate screws that would originally have been there. Is the current backplate attached with wood screws?
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Great work on that repair, looks like new! Strange about the replacement backplate - and with wood screws? :o The electronics package is still a puzzle too. All of these instruments come with some considerable history. It's like forensic work trying to figure out their stories.
Keep going, you're on a roll!
Jimmy J
PS: pickups - 2 (shorter screws) are meant to be under the pickup while the 2 longer ones are meant to gently hold it down. No springs or foam underneath. Results should look like this:
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Well done, Ed, good fix. Man, I'm reliving my own past here, fixing up a nice old Alembic in need. Here's where/when I met these fine folks, waaaay on back. You can see my restoration unfold, starting on page two.
https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=601.0
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Very nice repair work!
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Thanks all!
Ed, thanks for the link to your renovation thread too!
I have suspicions that the bass was refinished? the body cavity had none of the (shielded?) paint your exhibits?
and yes the coverplate is held on by wood screws, as was one of the pickups( the cracked one , go figure!
( pu screws on order from alembic.)
Great resource this site. There is so much information, my head may explode!
This bass is gonna be a patience project, hard to not just want to throw strings on and play it!
The Nut
Unfortunately, I think the nut has been filled too low. Makes sense why the nut, when I received it, was kinda shaped like a W. the adjustment screws had been cranked on the low and high side the E/A strings almost flat.
In addition, the lock screw threaded insert collar is completely loose in hole in neck.
Not sure I have my head around how this actually works, but I can get nut clearance appropriate for .55mm feeler gauge at first fret for B,D,G, but E/A are as low as .40 and .38 and those strings have some discernible buzz. Neck relief is good, as is bridge string height, so I suspect nut. Probably why they had solder in the center screw slot to build up height??
The electronics are going to be a investment. Looks to be somewhat of a redo, which is okay, but will wait til knob puller to attack that.
I will add that they do sound good, very even across all strings, which is very noticable.
There is some Spoiler electronics on Reverb, but seller is not sure if they work? So I'm hesitant.
Body work...
The crack between the pickup selector knob and rear tone knob is a tiny bit raised, so its structural, and Ed, any further info on your course of refinishing the internal pocket will surely be requested, will update when the knob puller hopefully removes thhese press fit knobs without cracking wood further.
Tuners, puller, screws should be here in about a week or so.
Thoughts on the nut are very welcome, reorder from alembic, maybe electronics too?
Thanks again!
Please keep the info coming!
jon_jackson...7 Alembics!!! maybe not that unusual, but damn! My wife gives me sideways looks for buying this one!
Thanks again to all as I continue down this rabbit hole!
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Hey Ed,
Here's the deal with the nut as far as I understand it...
It's unfortunate that on our 5-string basses that center "hold down" bolt falls right in our A-string slot, but it is what it is. And because there is a hole in the middle of that slot the A-string comes into contact with less brass as it travels over the nut. Consequently that slot may be more susceptible to wear than the other slots over a long period of time. Although in all my years playing 5-strings I can't say I've experienced this as a problem, I have had occasion to work on the slot depths to get the action set up as I like it.
Ideally you also want to match the nut and bridge saddle slots to the string gauges you prefer. But that's hard to do until you really settle on a set of strings you like.
So all that said, since the overall nut height is adjustable the trick is to raise it until the string with the deepest slot has the proper clearance for the action you desire - and then deepen any of the other slots that are too high.
The only slot you want to avoid cutting down is the center one because you don't want the string be in contact with the countersunk head of that bolt. If it's too late and the bottom of that center slot is already exposing that bolt then you should think about starting over with a replacement nut.
You'll have to get some other advice on how to re-secure the threaded insert that has fallen out of your headstock. Some combination of wood filling and glueing I would imagine? Again, it's never meant to be under much pressure, it's only meant to snugly hold the nut assembly in place once you've made your overall height adjustment.
I'm still really curious about the electronics too. It looks half-factory - because of the extra routing and fit, and half-3rd party - because of the unrecognizable boards, pots and switches. If your wish is to eventually put it back to stock spoiler electronics, as you can see in the pic below the control closest to the 1/4" jack was originally a switch. So I'm afraid that hole in your bass has been enlarged. Same goes for the pickup selector switch (pointy knob) which also uses a smaller mounting hole than a pot. So restoring that aspect of the bass to original might be tricky. Once you get it up and running you should certainly play it for a while as is because you might like whatever that is in there.
Jimmy J
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I was faced with several of these same choices, as my bass had also been routed out some, and had an extra hole drilled. I ended up having to actually fill one back in, and redrill to a smaller diameter for a Q-switch, and use a larger backup washer to bush it with.
The good news Ed, is you've got choices. There are four holes there, so you could opt for a simple Volume/Pan/Bass/Treble circuit that Alembic uses for Epic/Orion/Excel models. Or you could do a little more like mine, and opt for Volume/Pan/Filter/Q-switch, if you can do as I did and 'shrink' one of the holes. I don't know if the electronics cavity in your bass is quite big enough to stuff a set of Signature electronics into; it would be a sardine can for sure, but a huge upgrade. Honestly, keep it simple man. Have a conversation with Mica sometime and she can give you some great advice about what will be easiest to retrofit, and what you can expect from it. That 15 talk she gave me 9 years ago was a game-changer.
Jumping ahead...
While you have the electronics cavity emptied out, that's a good opportunity to fix that breakout between the pot and jack. Again, force it open gently... I'd probably pry with something inserted through the holes, get some glue flowed in, and clamp firmly between two cauls. You want to press the inside, out, and give it a backstop, if that makes sense.
For the shielding in the cavity, before installing new parts; Alembic uses some really nice conductive silver paint. They can't sell you any or ship it by mail, so you'll have to source that. I learned the hard way, to buy some good shielding paint... it took me a couple tries. Stewart MacDonald sells little half-pint cans.
I'm with Jimmy J. on this... play on that bass a while, and get a little bit of education on what your options are for restoring the electronics. Installing them is fairly easy - no soldering required, all modular plugs. The trick is to fit everything in there and keep it quiet.
Stay on target... you're doing good!
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Good morning.
Thank you both for the excellent advice and info!
Honestly hadn't even thought about the holes being enlarged.
Thats a bummer, but it is what it is.
Read the thread you had about the holes and fix, Ed (great work, btw)
Also, JimmyJ, I read yours about the nut shim idea, smart idea!
So much to ponder the next couple of days.
I have DR 40-120 strings on it now, which is which is what I'm used to on the 4 string basses,
Friday the hardware and puller comes, so I'll cross that bridge then.
Will give it a few days off in the meantime and game plan.
Thank you again!
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Wow nice work man, so I think this is one of the best forum in the world, really nice community that help each other.
You have a gorgeous bass!!
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Wow nice work man, so I think this is one of the best forum in the world, really nice community that help each other.
You have a gorgeous bass!!
100%
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Could not agree more with Goran's statement.
Really an unbelievable group of helpful people!
I was reading some of Mica's older posts regarding threaded inserts.
Will be needing some to replace the existing wood screws for the back plate and truss rod cover screws.
Thankfully, the inserts are okay for the PU, with the exception of one...
Any insight on good ones, or where to acquire? See some at Lowes for sale...
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Here's the FAQ post on Threaded Inserts, with installation instructions... sizes included.
https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=207.0
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As always, many thanks Ed,
I'm familiar with Mica's post. I've read it more than a few times. Took me a bit to figure out the "tool" . pretty clever.
There seems to be quite a few different wood inserts out there (of various sizes) didn't know if there was any clear cut winners.
The ones on Mica's post seem fairly generic. That will be this weekends mission.
Now an Update-
New gold strap buttons and tuners are on, and the old control knobs have been pulled off( purchased the knob puller from Stewmac, definitely worth wait on that tool!) Thankfully, the surface crack did not budge during removal of knobs.
It looks like all the holes have been enlarged. Bottom rear hole appears to have a plastic insert? possible others have been removed or routed out??
So far each step has shown that much of the previous "work" done on this bass was not very respectful to the instrument.
Did plug in the bass today (before taking out knobs) and noticed that the output level of the electronic are much, much lower than that of my other basses.
Tried my collection of Fenders, Ricks, and stingrays...Active and passive, all were much louder??
Not sure what that means yet.
Not sure if low output is customary of these basses or if the electronics are the probable suspect.
( as you pointed out, the electronics are a hodgepodge of factory and 2nd and 3rd party, so anythings possible)
Battery looks new, but will check it am.
Will add some picts of progress tomorrow.
Talk soon!
E
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Did plug in the bass today (before taking out knobs) and noticed that the output level of the electronic are much, much lower than that of my other basses.
Tried my collection of Fenders, Ricks, and stingrays...Active and passive, all were much louder??
Not sure what that means yet.
Not sure if low output is customary of these basses or if the electronics are the probable suspect.
( as you pointed out, the electronics are a hodgepodge of factory and 2nd and 3rd party, so anythings possible)
Battery looks new, but will check it am.
As someone with solid electronics background (but no specific experience working on Alembic electronics) I'll venture an informed guess. I expect some people with more direct experience will be along with more specific information soon.
Alembic's approach to pickups and active electronics in instruments was to use low impedance pickups. They are wound with fewer turns of wire than typical passive pickups. This means less inductance and capacitance, and thus a wider and more even frequency response. It also means lower signal level.
Alembic preamps thus are designed to have more gain than preamps designed for more typical, conventional pickups. If your bass has an aftermarket preamp in it, it probably doesn't have nearly enough gain for the pickups.
The higher gain (without higher noise, not easy to achieve) is half of the Alembic innovation. The other half is the tone-shaping capability of the low-pass filter, found on most (although not all) Alembics. Think of this as "sculpting" the wideband signal from the pickups.
I think you'd get the most out of your bass by installing a proper Alembic preamp: volume, pan, filter, 3-position Q switch. (Watch me spend your money ;D)
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Thanks songdog,
That makes complete sense, and no worries spending my money with free advice.
However, that transaction will have to wait...
Kinda feels inevitable, as does a possible refinishing of the bass, but thats still down the road.
Included this weekends picture updates and progress.
Any suggestions or tips greatly appreciated.
especially for what the electronics that are on it.
The plastic insert( maybe epoxy?) for the rear control hole is really interesting.
That part of the control cavity seems to have layered on the inside pocket as well.
On the positive side, the crack which is evident on the surface between control knobs doest appear to go all the way through, so hopefully thats stable...maybe why the epoxy was used.
Did replace the woods screws and the old inserts for the cavity cover as well...the threads on old inserts were all stripped out from oversize wood screws.
Going to do same with wood screws covering truss rod cover.
Received the PU screws from Alembic...Wow even that was packed and wrapped beautifully. Quality control from Alembic is amazing.
On the nut, Im going to replace the flat brass piece under the nut with a thicker brass piece, to hopefully compensate for the nut being filed too low on E/A strings, seem to have to raise B, D, and G as well for .22mm to maybe that will help out.
Read about that on another thread( maybe JimmyJ)...smart ideas on this site.
Hope you are all having a great weekend. Thanks for the encouragement and tips!
Heres some picts...
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back plate with machine screw inserts. Back plate will be replaced with piece of brass in future. original has an errant hole that doesnt correspond to hole...looks like a mistake
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You're making some fine progress there!
I believe I've found your electronics package - or a current version of it:
https://www.thomannmusic.com/glockenklang_2band_electronic.htm (https://www.thomannmusic.com/glockenklang_2band_electronic.htm)
https://www.glockenklang.de/en/products/bass_systems/onboard_2-band.htm (https://www.glockenklang.de/en/products/bass_systems/onboard_2-band.htm)
While I'm glad to see you still have your original pickups ... I suspect what songdog said above about the impedance is likely the cause of your low output levels. Also note that the push-pull switch on the installed rig is active/passive so that's worth trying the next time you have it all together. Alembic uses connectors for every component to make it all serviceable but your pickup wires have been soldered into this system. >:( So if / when you eventually get an original electronics package you will also need to reinstall connectors on the pickup leads.
Re the nut: Again, the nut is held UP by the outer two screws and only held in place by the center one. So you should have plenty of room to raise it far enough to get your action set without needing any additional shimming or replacement of the flat brass piece. You see what I mean? Loosen the center bolt, then turn the outer bolts clockwise to raise the nut to the height you need, then gently snug down the center bolt. If the result makes some strings too high then you need to cut down those slots.
When I needed to adjust the individual slots on a nut and bridge I removed these pieces from the bass and mounted them on a piece of wood so I could do the filing without damaging the instrument. I used a cardboard template of a 12" radius as a guide and tried to get the bottom of the slots to match. It worked out pretty good! I can tell you more details about that if you get into it at some point.
Keep going!
Jimmy J
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Wow!
Thank you JimmyJ
The vast amount of knowledge you guys have is amazing and so welcome!
Not sure how you found this site and the preamp, but that looks exactly like the hardware I have.
Well, I guess in the future I will be investing in a new alembic preamp and pots for this bass.
I completely agree with the low output deduction, and this is clearly the smoking gun.
Bummer...in string of bummers. It doesn't take much to keep instruments in great shape for a lifetime . especially with how well Alembics are engineered.
Again, not sure if the seller was aware how much poor modification this bass has had done to it.
Not really what I was expected, but I'm in it now, and determined to make it as good as I can make it.
With all the help in this club, I feel very confident it'll get there.
The nut is a trickier issue.
I am not sure why, but getting the nut height to be correct(without more filing) has been complicated.
Now that I get how the nut was designed( the whole assembly) i was concerned that the same poor work that has been done on this bass has been done to the neck / nut. ( the nut, which is a complicated piece to replace with the three recessed screws) then filing to proper depth...
Main issue are the E/A string. Could raise the nut on the side to get proper height for B, D, G, but getting the E/A to same height.(22mm) resulted in B, D, G being to high and seemed excessive, and not correct in approach. The flat .064 approx original brass piece was fairly bent, and being that the insert was stripped out of the neck completely, I experimented with A) adding a flat piece of .032 brass underneath .064 original, and B) replacing the whole flat piece assembly with a .090 flat piece of brass. the latter resulting in 1st fret clearance of just under .22 feeler gauge under E/A, and by slight raising B /G adjusting screw, seemed to produce a somewhat uniform .22-.23mm clearance.
This along with making the new hole on back plate was for proof of concept idea.
Th nut assembly as a whole for me is now 2 piece bass, and the insert that screws on bottom to keep together. It is a very small diameter insert. threads far smaller than 6-32/6-40. For now i will leave as is. i feel fortunate considering how many inserts have been bent, stripped, or downright chewed up with a wood screw...
Ugh.
Fairly sure, I will tear this bass down to just the wood and begin repairing some poor wood finish and refinishing this entire bass.
Think thats when I'll be completely satisfied with the condition of this bass.
Any thoughts on the rear hole plastic insert/Epoxy? Weird right?
Currently the bass is all back together, for fear of losing parts, and just to keep it together.
Going to pick up brass screws for truss rod cover. btw, truss rod is has basically no tension on it currently for proper relief. when I received it, it was cranked tight, and under far too much pressure..headstock crack made possible??
Quite a journey.
Thank you all for the the informed guidance and confidence!
Will update soon!
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Hey Ed,
We're sorry that you've found yourself in a much deeper project than you had bargained for when you bought this bass. We hope you have the patients to see it through, get it set up as you like, and make some MUSIC with it.
I think Glockenklang amps and electronics are fairly well thought of so whoever did the swap originally was trying to do a good thing. They clearly put some time and effort into it. As to why ... that's anybody's guess. Maybe the rest of their collection all had this setup and they did it for consistency, who knows? But be sure you try the push-pull switch the next time you get it to that stage of assembly because the "active" circuit might have a more usable output. You could also consider getting a small booster pedal to give the output level more gas - if that's even necessary. Just an idea so you can get to playing the bass instead of waiting for parts and mods and spending a bundle of $$. Seriously, you should not feel obligated to return the bass to "original" specs. The point is to play the instrument. You might dig it with the current electronics package and there's absolutely no shame in leaving it like that if it works for you.
The nut: Don't let the idea of doing some filing put you off, it's not that difficult. More pics attached below. (Are you getting tired of this yet? :o ) The first picture is your nut and the slots on the fret side clearly don't comply with the correct radius.
Then from when I was working on mine; another example of the 12" radius (here showing the top to the strings which essentially follows the same curve as the bottoms because of the taper of the individual gauges). And my homemade E-string fret file which is simply a piece of a string mounted on a chunk of wood. I removed the main part of the nut from the bass and mounted it on a piece of wood to work on it. Then I was able to cut the E-string slot down by aggressively scrubbing this actual E-string back and forth until the slot was the right depth. Slightly angling down towards what would be the tuner side of the nut while checking the depth of the slot on the frets side with my cardboard radius gauge to reach the goal. The bonus of using an actual string is that the resulting slot is perfect fit. I do own some nut files which certainly make the job go faster and if you were starting with a blank nut you'd need 'em. (Stewmac is a good source). But the files I have were a little off my string diameters so my funky method worked best for me on the larger strings. Tougher with the G and D because to go deeper than the surface you need to use a string like a coping saw. (Might have an idea for a new tool here....)
Anyway, I encourage you to give that a try to get your slots to be closer to the correct radius. Then you can raise the nut as a whole until you have the 1st fret clearance you prefer. People don't always realize what a big impact the nut has on the entire action. A little high there makes the string a little high over the entire fingerboard. So it's an important thing to get that detail setup as you like it.
Re your extra backplate hole. I say, who cares? The cover is secure and correctly mounted so the extra hole simply adds character. :D
i'm more curious about what looks like an insert in the hole below the 1/4" jack. What's up with that? I thought all the mounting holes had been enlarged but that appears to have been made smaller with some kind of insert? Huh...
Jimmy J
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Hello JimmyJ,
Again, your knowledge is awe inspiring.
Love the info never tire of it. Learning is a good thing!
Agreed, the point is to play the bass, which I have, but I was thinking it would be closer to a true Alembic sound and experience...
Since that ship has sailed, my hopes are to restore the bass to as close to that experience as possible, as gently as possible.
Great point regarding the nut radius.
I assume that these basses all have a 12" fretboard radius? That would certainly address the disparity in issue.
I have a radius gauge that I can profile the front of the nut for reference, and go from there.
So far my messing around with the bass is to address the problem areas and develop a plan, budget, and hopefully learn as much as I can about these beautiful instruments, which like many, is a bucket list item for this bass player.
Regarding the back plate, I agree, I say the same thing when I get my hair cut...I don't see the back! LOL
I was told that his dad was the original, sole owner, purchased new in NYC, and the only thing changed was the knobs.
Thinking his knowledge of this bass was less than spot on?
I'm thinking possibly a few owners, each added a little fun to it (The epoxy hole, insert thing, ???)
Hopefully, Mica will be able to find a record of it.
Maybe what he said is all true, and intentions were sound, but seems like a whole lot of disregard for proper maintenance, but then again it is almost 40 years old. I'm sure I don't look like I did 40 years ago!
Thank you again.
CU of insert for truss rod cover...Kind of destroyed..
E
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Sorry, I tend to go on and on. Not because I'm smart but because I've been playing Alembics exclusively since 1975 (wow, I am ancient) so I've gotten to know the hardware.
I've been on Series basses though so I'm not sure the 12" radius is the same for all models. Try your radius gauge on the fingerboard or a fret.
I'm also not a wood repair guy but I'm sure there is a method to fix the inserts for the truss rod cover. Drill out, insert plug, start over with new threaded insert? Maybe not that complicated. There are some very talented instrument repair folks in here so maybe some will chime in. You may also want to start another thread under "troubleshooting" because we're over here in "Serial Number..."
And I'm sorry but I have to mention the pickup screws again ... which are meant to be one above and one below per side with the visible heads in opposite corners. I think you know this already so maybe this latest pic was from before?
OK, I'll step away from the laptop now. :D
Jimmy J
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Troubleshooting...Good point, apologies to moderators.
Will jump over.
Thanks for the pick up reminder.
Will adjust.
Contacted Alembic regarding electronics...See what they say.
Will try to utilize the 4 existing pot holes for new electronics, and maybe drill a 5th for switch.
In the meantime, gonna play it for a bit, then break it down and sand it and refinish.
Have work slowdown coming because of dual striking unions, so time off is coming.
Will continue regarding radius on troubleshooting forum.
E
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(Continuing the troubleshooting started on the Serial Nber / History Requests https://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=27978.msg284814;topicseen#msg284814 )
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Thanks for moving this discussion to the proper category Adriaan!
If you have access to a drill-press it may be possible to find some type of hardwood dowel that is slightly larger than the existing holes, drill a clean hole the size of the dowel and glue the dowel in place. Then you would be able to drill new holes the proper size for the Alembic electronics. Good thing to think about if you are going to sand and refinish the instrument since the dowels would need trimming and sanding to get an even fit with the top wood. You could also use a dowel to fill the old truss cover holes, then re-drill or install threaded inserts.
Great to see you giving this bass a lot of love... best of luck with the restoration!
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Thanks Adriaan,
Hello StephenR!
Got carried away on last thread…apologies
More exploration on this bass!
Yeah. The wood plugs are a great idea.
Hard to come up with a match to the flame Koa. Friend of mine has a very nice drill press, so that is a real possibility.
Leaning toward trying to find an Alembic solution for 4 knobs and adding a possible active/passive switch. See what they say.
Did plug in today for a few hours.
This is what I’ve noticed. The replaced electronics, (Glockenklang? ) function as suspected.
Push pull, active , passive.
While active bass is louder at the set specific low boost / cut , and set treble boost cut.
Other control is pan.
That said, bass is still approx 10db lower (used decibel x)than my 4003 passive , and fretless jazz(emg active)
Can’t say I like the active sound coloration, the freq is very low, the high is scratchy.
Did email q
Alembic to see possible replacement.
Then went down the radius rabbit hole.
JimmyJ, this is what I see.
The nut is a bit off from my 12” radius gauge, but only a bit on the B side and G side?
The fret board is right on the money
The bridge is dramatically off, with A string sitting very low, well below radius.
Since the bridge saddles are not independently height adjustable, I would have to file saddles lower on all but A string to get proper radius.
Made a cardboard 12” radius(following your idea)
and checked them all with under string radius gauge and regular gauge.
My plan, in order, make nut radius correct, check 1st fret to .55mm, double check neck relief(no tension at all on it currently…which makes me a little concerned…tension makes too convex
Then correct the saddles…
Seem like a good plan?
The finish I the least worried about.
Just getting the heart and soul of this bass correct has been a challenge !
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Good evening!
Major progress. JimmyJ, you're a genius.
Making the assumption that the bass already was correct in its radius was foolish given its seeming condition.
Did some work on nut, double checked the truss rods, then made the bridge have a correct 12" radius.
That was the ticket. 1st fret clearance is at .55mm all strings, action is at 3/32, and the string buzz issues have gone away.
Made a huge difference. Starting to feel dialed in now.
Electronics i'm gonna put a pin in for now...
Next will be the finish...
Thanks for all the help Club!
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Hey Ed,
Great that you got the bass set up the way you like!
Found a source for hardwood dowels in various sizes and wood types like maple, cherry, walnut. The dowels come in sizes from 1/2" to 2". Going to be difficult to find Koa dowels but a contrasting wood should look pretty nice.
https://www.cindoco.com/products
This site has an excellent assortment of exotic hardwood dowels, no Koa but some interesting choices.
https://www.bellforestproducts.com/wood-dowels/
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If you want to go all out and having or know someone with the equipment to do wood turnninig, this company sells Hawaiian Koa pen blanks.
https://hawaiiankoa.com/t/hawaiian-koa-pen-blanks
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Thanks Stephen R and Hammer!
My first thought, and if anybody can help please direct me...
Utilize the 4 holes as is and replace preamp and pots with an Alembic electronics consisting of 4 pots plus add 1 switch( will have to be drilled and squeezed in somewhere...)
I emailed Alembic to this query, but haven't received a response, maybe that was wrong approach, and I should contact dealership?
At this point I just need the assembly, not the pickups, if that is possible?
Today I worked on the 2 brass pieces that were funky...The truss cover, screw was misaligned, had replaced the wood screw that were in it and chewed up the inserts...and the back plate cover.
For both I put in threaded inserts, then cut and shaped a piece of 1.5mm brass to fit both spots.
Came out pretty good, I think.
just ordered some conductive paint from Stewmac.
Going on vacation for a week, so made it to a logical break point.
When I get back, I'll resume the madness!
Thanks for the links and suggestions. Will take a look for sure!
Please keep help, suggestions, ideas coming!
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Yes! More excellent progress. Glad to hear you’ve wrangled the action into shape. And these two brass pieces look brand new. Good work!
I’m sure there is an Alembic electronics package that you could “fit to the holes” so to speak. Others in here will chime in with suggestions (I only know the Series electronics). I like that you’re already thinking about a custom option. Stand by for ideas.
Nice going!
Jimmy J
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Again Ed, you have a couple easy options for zero-mod, Alembic drop-in equipment. I highly recommend you seek Mica's advice here. She really knows what will fit, and what you'll likely need to whittle for. She can also de-mystify what the electronics packages are, and what'll get you closer to what your goals are.
Lookin' good! Stay after it.
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Hello!
Back from vacation...Thanks for the suggestions JimmyJ and Ed!
Is the best way to reach out to Mica is call the Alembic number and talk directly? (What a thought in this new age of text, blogs, and Forums!!!LOL)
All the suggestions have really helped this bass feel more normal to me.
This is an amazing source of information!
Received the conductive paint.
Next will be to take it apart and start the sanding.
talk soon
E