Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: StephenR on November 20, 2022, 02:04:35 PM
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Philosophy of Modern Song by Bob Dylan was recently published. I have a copy reserved in the Oakland Public Library system and am looking forward to reading it. Meanwhile I found a short excerpt online where he talks about the Grateful Dead. Thought his observations were not only amusing but right on. Especially like the comparison between the women in the audience at a Dead and a Stones show.
A excerpt from Bob Dylan’s new book The Philosophy of Modern Song, he writes-
“The Grateful Dead are not your usual rock and roll band. They're essentially a dance band. They have more in common with Artie Shaw and bebop than they do with the Byrds or the Stones. Whirling dervish dancers are as much a part of their music as anything else. There is a big difference in the types of women that you see from the stage when you are with the Stones compared to the Dead. With the Stones it's like being at a porno convention. With the Dead, it's more like the women you see by the river in the movie O Brother, Where Art Thou? Free floating, snaky and slithering like in a typical daydream. Thousands of them. With most bands the audience participates like in a spectator sport. They just stand there and watch. They keep a distance. With the Dead, the audience is part of the band-they might as well be on the stage.”
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Philosophy of Modern Song by Bob Dylan ...
The Grateful Dead are not your usual rock and roll band. They're essentially a dance band. They have more in common with Artie Shaw and bebop than they do with the Byrds or the Stones. Whirling dervish dancers are as much a part of their music as anything else. There is a big difference in the types of women that you see from the stage when you are with the Stones compared to the Dead. With the Stones it's like being at a porno convention. With the Dead, it's more like the women you see by the river in the movie O Brother, Where Art Thou? Free floating, snaky and slithering like in a typical daydream. Thousands of them. With most bands the audience participates like in a spectator sport. They just stand there and watch. They keep a distance. With the Dead, the audience is part of the band-they might as well be on the stage.
Interesting to get such a take from Dylan. Looking forward to your book review.
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Read that excerpt to Senior Management (who never saw the Stones, but who has Dead shows in double digits under belt); quoth she "Yeah, that sounds about right".
Peter
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Sounds about right. Say what you may, Dylan has always been an insightful dude.
Bill, tgo
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I have always thought that the Dead's appeal (beyond, of course, the finest music ever made) was that most rock bands (the Stones most definitely included) take the stage with the attitude "We are Rock Gods; kneel, and receive that which we deliver unto thee!"
But the Dead - at least until "Touch" made everything too big for it to work - took the stage with the attitude "Hey, glad you're here; let's see what we can get up to together!"
Peter
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I think Dylan especially related to Jerry because he was one of the few people on the planet who had a similar experience with being (unwantingly) perceived as a god/prophet by multitudes. And, adding to Peter’s pontification (never used that word in a forum before!), it wasn’t just a cliche, at a Dead show the audience really was a member of the band. I sure do miss those days.
Bill, tgo
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Dylan has always been an excellent observer, he chronicles everything he soaks up in the various art forms he participates in. Rob Barraco told me some funny stories about being on tour with Phil Lesh and opening for Dylan. He literally and physically ran into Bob in the hallway before Bob's set, being in the halls before Dylan goes on was prohibited and he almost got booted from the tour after it happened twice. But, the funniest stories were about Dylan dressing up in disguise so he could go out in public and hang out without being recognized. Rob was telling Larry Campbell about what he thought was a homeless woman he saw from his hotel room window. "She" was hanging out by a dumpster in the alley. Larry told him that was Bob in one of his many disguises and filled him in on some of the other common ones.
Over the years I rarely went to large shows by anyone including the Dead, especially avoided stadiums with only a couple of exceptions like the Dylan/Dead tour. In the late 80s I went to two shows at Nassau Coliseum on LI around the same time period. One was Clapton with Mark Knopfler and the other was Dire Straits. I was so used to being at Dead shows where everyone mills around and seems like an active part of the scene and experience. Not that way for Dire Straits or Clapton. Nobody in the aisles, everyone just sat and stared at the band and heaven forbid anyone got up and tried to dance. Felt like there was zero vibe in the room particularly at the Clapton show which I found tediously boring.
The funny thing about Dylan is that he would probably not want everyone in his audience to act like at a Dead show but he absolutely gets why it works for the Dead and was so much of a part of the experience of seeing them play. Such an amazing individual!
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Stephen, my last show was '91; had to buy a wristband, go back a week later to buy a ticket - at Soldier Field. And they did "the wave." Supposed "Deadheads"! In Chicago! Doing "the wave' ??? ?
That was when I started to understand my father's lifelong mantra: "The whole world's turning to horse manure."
Peter (who also felt that Vince, while a fine musician, was not, perhaps, a Dead musician - but was much more turned off by the change in the experience)
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I saw Zappa in Providence once. Got yelled at by the people behind me for standing up and dancing. I of course continued to dance and suggested they do the same :)
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I saw Zappa in Providence once. Got yelled at by the people behind me for standing up and dancing. I of course continued to dance and suggested they do the same :)
Singing and dancing SHOULD happen at live shows, if you aren’t prepared to accept that people are moved in different ways by art, then stay home and wait for the dvd release.
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Between being a Deadhead & having spent a bit of my life working for bar bands, I can't imagine live music sans shaking it. Heck, more than one player has told me the main reason they did was to watch young women dance........
Peter (who will confess to dancing much less himself the last 100 pounds or so)
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This thread brings back the memory of seeing Dylan at the Warfield in S.F. during his “born again” phase. The audience included large numbers of both old hippies and Jesus freaks. I, along with several friends, was sitting in the front row of the balcony, while another group of friends were sitting behind us in the third row. In the second row, between us, was a contingent of religious types. We in the first row were filling up nitrous balloons and passing them back to the third row, while our friends were passing giant joints up to us, all with the JFs between us. At one point, as I was passing a balloon back, one of the 2nd rowers looked at me and said forcefully “do you mind!”. I looked at him, smiled, and said “not at all” and reached for a joint from the 3rd row. I figured we were all there to enjoy Dylan and if we had to put up with them, they had to put up with us. As an aside, apart from the religious aspect, the show was outstanding! My take on the Jesus phase was about the same I’ve always felt about Dylan’s attitude towards women. I may not agree with what he’s saying, but I LOVE the way he says it.
Bill, tgo
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In the early 2000s I saw Dylan at the UNH hockey arena. I don’t recall him playing guitar on a single tune, chose to play an electric keyboard all night instead. Kind of surprising, but interesting :)
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Here is the set list from that night…
Drifter's Escape
Dignity
Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum
Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues
It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
Just Like a Woman
Things Have Changed
Forever Young
Highway 61 Revisited
Moonlight
Ballad of a Thin Man
Honest With Me
Boots of Spanish Leather
Summer Days
ENCORE
Like a Rolling Stone
All Along the Watchtower
And to bring it back to the original thread topic, I just ordered his new book :)
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Still may buy a copy. I have added a number of large books to my collection recently and am running out of places to stash stuff.
Last Dylan shows I saw were in the early 2000s. He mainly played piano but also some guitar and even stood center stage holding a mic to sing and looking awkward. This was actually preferable to the late 90s when he seemed to insist on playing lead. It was difficult to watch Larry Campbell playing rhythm while Bob played the same repetitive primitive “solo” in every song.
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... It was difficult to watch Larry Campbell playing rhythm while Bob played the same repetitive primitive “solo” in every song.
Larry Campbell is a wonderful guitar player, so yes, I imagine that would have been somewhat baffling.
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1) Saw Zimmie open for The Dead (as opposed to the Dead) in....'04? Jimmy Herring & Joan Osborne. He played (rhythm) guitar all night, and his band was great! A fine time was had by all (except for when we came in a little late & I missed my one chance at seeing Hunter perform.....).
2) From Dennis McNally, A Long Strange Trip: The Inside Story Of The Grateful Dead (2002, NYNY: Random House. pg 119):
"The acid tests had a much more enduring legacy than this momentary megalomania, for they would serve as the template that permanently defined the Grateful Dead's view of its audience. The bond between virtually all theatrical or musical performers and their audience is romantic; the artist seeks love, the audience gives it. The Grateful Dead certainly sought to entertain and move its audience, but the root basis of their relationship was that of a partnership of equals, of companions on an odyssey. Ironically enough, these young people, in both the band and the audience, would go on to achieve an incredibly mature bond. The only parallel in American music might be the relationship of certain jazz musicians to their audience. Coltrane had truly left his mark."
Peter
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In the early 2000s I saw Dylan at the UNH hockey arena. I don’t recall him playing guitar on a single tune, chose to play an electric keyboard all night instead. Kind of surprising, but interesting :)
I saw him around then and it was the same thing. He had a Strat on stage, but never touched it. A few days later I was at Gary Brawer’s shop (Gary is a noted luthier who has worked on, among others, Jerry’s instruments and Willie Nelson’s Trigger). Gary told me that Dylan’s guy brought in the Strat for a full set-up when he hit town. The guy told him that they got the guitar a full set-up in each stop on the tour, and that Dylan hadn’t touched the guitar once!
Bill, tgo
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I saw Zappa in Providence once. Got yelled at by the people behind me for standing up and dancing. I of course continued to dance and suggested they do the same :)
As long as you were dancing about architecture, you're cool!
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:)
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I was finally able to pick up the copy of Dylan's book from the local library that I had put on reserve. Haven't read that much yet but it is graphically a beautifully put together book and I am finding the writing to be really impressive if you like Bob's stream of consciousness style of writing. The tone reminds me of his Theme Time Radio broadcasts. My wife and I both found the writing dense enough that we want our own copy. It will be fun to listen to the songs while reading, there is a CD available with all the tunes but finding them on YouTube will suffice. If anyone has been thinking about getting a copy Barnes & Noble currently has it for sale online for 50% off. I called the B&N store nearby in Emeryville and it is on sale in that store for the same price.
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So NOBODY could be in the hallway to the stage when he was out there, and dressed up like a homeless woman to fade into the public unmolested.
I'm supposed to take anything this man writes seriously? Really?
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Yes. Really.
Just downloaded it on my iPad.
Bill, tgo
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Oh, I dunno, Joey; I'm guessing that once you've been dubbed The King, or God, or The Voice Of His Generation, you do what you can to keep people from leaching off you.
As his peer Phil Ochs wrote (in re their respective success levels) "To the loser go the hang-ups/To the victor go the hangers on".
Peter (who, for the record, considers Phil's Pleasures Of The Harbor album superior to anything Bob did - which in no way diminishes Mr. Zimmerman's genius)
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Coz, I've never understood that mindset of too famous to have a reasonably normal life away from the stage. They say money can't buy you happiness, but it can certainly buy privacy. Would certainly buy me NOT having to dress up like a homeless woman . . . . that's just nuts.
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Glad to learn that someone else around here likes Phil Ochs. Phil could have been speaking about now when he said "In such an ugly time, the true protest is beauty."
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Coz, I've never understood that mindset of too famous to have a reasonably normal life away from the stage. They say money can't buy you happiness, but it can certainly buy privacy. Would certainly buy me NOT having to dress up like a homeless woman . . . . that's just nuts.
Well, I in no way meant to imply that Dylan isn't.....well, perhaps just a tad eccentric. But I would argue that eccentricity does not diminish artistic impact.
Peter
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Glad to learn that someone else around here likes Phil Ochs. Phil could have been speaking about now when he said "In such an ugly time, the true protest is beauty."
While I love a good, strident protest song as much as the next guy, I do think Phil leaned on the form a little too much - which is not to say that he didn't write some damn fine strident protest songs.
But yeah - I have, at some points in my life, sat around dorm rooms stoned playing "Top 10 Desert Island Albums" - and yeah, while some releases have come on & gone off over the decades, Pleasures Of The Harbor has been on that list nonstop since the first time I heard it at 18 (and that's more than a week ago now......! The genius of the arrangements & production perfectly highlights the genius of the writing.
Peter
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LOVE Phil Ochs. On top of some of the most kick-in-the-gut protest songs: “I Ain’t Marching Anymore”; “Cops of the World”; Santo Domingo”, “Is There Anybody Here”; “Love Me, I’m a Liberal” he also wrote beautiful songs like “There But For Fortune” and, especially, “Changes”. I grew up with his 1966 “Phil Ochs in Concert” album getting lots of play on my parents’ turntable. He hung himself on my 21st birthday, something I’ve never forgotten.
Bill, tgo
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I grew up with his 1966 “Phil Ochs in Concert” album getting lots of play on my parents’ turntable.
Bill, tgo
Wow. I am so jealous! My parents' turntable was all Andy Williams, Perry Como, and "Longine's Symphonette" boxed Muzak sets.
Peter (whose life - or at least sanity - was saved when a college girl lived with us for a couple years, and brought folk albums with her; yeah, it was mostly striped-shirt folk, but after Andy & Perry...........)
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My parents played an eclectic mix of folk (Ochs, Harry Belafonte, Kingston Trio, Simon & Garfunkel, Jacqueline Sharpe’s (writer of the MTA song) “No More War” album, etc.), Classical music, and Broadway show tunes from 1930-1970 (I can still sing along with most Broadway tunes from those years). I remember sitting at the dinner table one night while my Mom put on the new album she had just bought that day, “Hair”. When the cast started singing “sodomy, fellatio, cunnilingus, pederasty, father why do these words sound so nasty? Masturbation can be fun, join the holy orgy Kama Sutra everyone”, my father turned red, looked at me and with an accusing tone roared “what the hell are you playing?” I just smiled and calmly replied “it’s Mom’s!”
Bill, tgo