Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Owning an Alembic => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Wyofiddler on September 07, 2022, 01:56:58 PM
-
Hello Alembic friends!
First time post so please be gentle with me :)
I am a little confused by the behavior of my Series II Bass and would love to get some input.
I just did a pretty through troubleshooting and found the following to be true:
With NO batteries loaded:
5-pin cable connected, no 1/4": No sound, Have neck LEDs
No 5-pin cable, 1/4" connected: No sound, No neck LEDs
5-pin cable connected, 1/4" cable connected: No sound, Have neck LEDs
With two brand new 9-volt batteries loaded:
5-pin cable connected, no 1/4": No sound, Have neck LEDs
No 5-pin cable, 1/4" connected: Have sound, no neck LEDs
5-pin cable connected, 1/4" cable connected: HAVE sound, Have neck LEDs
Plugging in both cables, I can play to my hearts' content. Well, at least I can try... I'm not sure I've ever reached 'hearts content' while playing before running out of time and having to go take care of something else! ;D Is the 5-pin cable alone supposed to carry audio from the instrument as well as power to the instrument?
Really long confusing story short: Do I need to send in my 5-pin cable for a check-up? Or is there something I'm not doing that I'm not aware of?
Thanks!
Ben
-
We'll get you going. Could be just a bad cable, it happens. First, Welcome.
Help us out a little bit more though.
1. Was it working before, and something changed?
2. Is this an older model, or a fairly new bass?
3. How is your DS-5 connected to the amplifier?
4. Is your pickup selector switch functional?
-
Wow, a reply this quickly is incredible, thank you!
My bass is the "Raging Bass" featured custom, of which I believe I am the second owner. I inherited her from the original owner when he was no longer able to play her. The photos on the webpage for it seem to be copyrighted 2006, so I assume that's close the the build date.
I do remember that the 5-pin cable was working (both audio and power via the 5-pin cable) when she first came to live with me a few years ago, then at some point I found I needed the 1/4" cable to get the sound to come out.
My DS-5R is powered from a surge protector/power strip plugged into a standard US outlet. On the DS-5R itself, the 5-pin cable from the bass is plugged into the front 5-pin jack, and a 1/4" TS guitar cable from the bass is plugged into the "Bass/Mono" jack with the stereo/mono selector switch set the "Mono". A 1/4" TS connects the "bass/mono" output jack of the DS-5R to the input jack of my Carvin BX1500 bass amp, which is also powered from the same surge protector/power strip as the DS-5R. There's usually a few other items in the signal chain (F1-X etc.) but they don't change whether the sound makes it to the amp or not.
My P/U selector switch is fully functional in all four positions. All controls on the instrument can be clearly heard, filters for both pickups, volume knobs work as expected. Except I've always found it very difficult to detect any change in sound when adjusting the CVQ for the neck pickup, but I'm pretty sure the problem there is with my ears not the bass :P
Ben
-
On the DS-5R, the BASS/MONO jack is actually an OUTPUT. The cable with the 5-pin connectors carries the voltage from the DS-5R to the bass, and also the signals from both pickups back to the DS-5R, and you don't need to run a regular guitar cord from the instrument.
If you don't use the DS-5R, you need to install batteries in the bass, and you use a cord with regular 1/4" jacks to plug straight into your amp (or pedalboard). As your bass is a newer model, there should be a stereo/mono switch on the bass - if a mono cord gives you only one pickup, throw the switch on the bass and you should get the combined signal. That, or use a stereo cord (TRS plug).
When connected to the DS-5R, you will have a mono/stereo switch on there. When switched to mono, use the bass/mono output for the combined signal. When switched to stereo, use mono cords from both bass/mono and treble outputs to process the bass (neck) and treble (bridge) pickup signals separately.
Not sure if that covers all your situations, but it might help lift some of the confusion.
-
Here's the patient:
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ragingbass.html
Nice bass!
-
The effect of the CVQ is subtle, but noticeable - it's not like a treble control. To hear the effect, turn up the CVQ, do hammer-ons with your fretting hand on an open string and the second fret, and with your other hand turn the filter knob all the way from open to closed, and back again. As you turn the filter, you will notice there is a bit of a wah-effect, as the filter's resonance is boosted at the cut-off frequency that you're adjusting. With the CVQ fully open, it will be a bit more noticeable than with the CVQ closed.
Now that you know what you're listening for, set the filter to where you like the brightness of each pickup, and adjust the CVQ to get some extra resonance at the start of each note. I like to keep my neck pickup filter nearly closed with the CVQ about one third of the turn open, which ups the woodiness, and the bridge pickup filter at about 80-90% open with slightly less CVQ, to give me slightly softer treble.
-
Hey Ben,
Welcome. That is a LOVELY looking leftie! It has a couple extra knobs which I can't identify. My usual count is: Pickup selector switch, master volume, bass p/u volume, treble p/u volume, bass p/u tone, treble p/u tone, bass Q boost control, treble Q boost control. Is the extra control an LED brightness? Or maybe to turn off the laser LEDs so nobody gets hurt? Ha!
You said: "On the DS-5R itself, the 5-pin cable from the bass is plugged into the front 5-pin jack, and a 1/4" TS guitar cable from the bass is plugged into the "Bass/Mono" jack with the stereo/mono selector switch set the "Mono". A 1/4" TS connects the "bass/mono" output jack of the DS-5R to the input jack of my Carvin BX1500 bass amp"
That's a little confusing. The DS5-R is a power supply for the bass. It sends a +/- DC voltage up the cable, and gets audio signal from both individual pickups back down the same line. The output of the bass - normally - is the "Bass/Mono" jack on the front OR rear panels of the device (those two jacks are connected to each other). To be in mono you throw the switch and use either of those two "Bass" outputs. With the switch in stereo, only the neck pickup comes out of the "Bass" jack and the bridge pickup comes out of the "Treble" jack.
If you are only going to operate with batteries then there is no reason to go through the DS5-R. Instead you go directly from your bass to the amp.
The LEDs do not operate with battery power because they draw too much current. The fact that your LEDs do work with the 5-pin cable is a sign that the bass is seeing power from the DS5-R.
Anytime you plug into the bass's 1/4" jack your preamps are working off batteries, even if the LEDs remain lit by the 5-pin cable's power.
I know, it's kinda confusing. But the point is, "normal" operations would be to use the DS5-R to power the instrument through the 5-pin cable and connectors, and run a standard guitar cable from either Bass/Mono output jack to your amp. We generally consider battery operation to be a short term thing, maybe for tuning, sitting in on a song, or in an emergency when you don't have your power supply. Also, the 9V batteries do not last long running our onboard preamps. You need to pull the 1/4" plug out of the bass to shut off the batteries.
We'll figure this out!
Jimmy J
-
Oh my, the plot thickens.
JimmyJ, the extra knob is the dimmer knob for the front-facing laser LEDs - yes they do get pretty painfully bright! There is also a stereo/mono switch for the 1/4" output jack.
Adriaan, you said "On the DS-5R, the BASS/MONO jack is actually an OUTPUT. The cable with the 5-pin connectors carries the voltage from the DS-5R to the bass, and also the signals from both pickups back to the DS-5R, and you don't need to run a regular guitar cord from the instrument." There's a "bass/mono" jack and a "treble" jack located on the front panel; and another duplicate set of those two jacks located on the rear panel. I had assumed that on the DS-5R, all the jacks on the front were inputs, and all the jacks on the back were outputs. Do I understand you correctly that this is not the case? The descriptions from both of you is exactly how I thought it was supposed to be working - only plug in the 5-pin from bass to DS-5R, and get both power to the bass and signal from the bass. This does not happen on my instrument.
I have been connecting the 5-pin cable from bass to DS-5R; and then a 1/4" TS from the DS-5R rear "bass/mono" jack to my amplifier. The result with only the 5-pin cable connected to the bass is no sound signal from the bass to the amplifier. With the 5-pin cable connecting the bass to the DS-5R, if I also connect a 1/4" instrument cable from the bass 1/4" jack to the "bass/mono" jack on the DS-5R; then a different TS cable from the other "bass/mono" jack on the DS-5R to the amplifier - then I get sound signal to the amplifier.
However...........
Now that I'm testing and fiddling and trying to figure out the results of these different ideas we're exploring...
I just connected the bass to the amp using only the 5-pin cable to the DS-5R. The power supply is good, because the LEDs come on as they should. No sound comes from the bass through the amplifier at my normal practice/house volume settings. I turned up my amplifier to absolute max, literally as high as it can possibly go - this should shake and probably crack the windows with my 1500w amp to a 400w FRFR Greenboy cabinet - and plucking at max volume I can hear the notes from the bass coming through the amp very very faintly, put your ear right next to the speaker faintly, so the audio signal IS coming through the electronics at an incredibly tiny volume, with ONLY the 5-pin cable connecting the bass to amp. At a normal volume setting, where I have it when connecting with a 1/4" instrument cable, this tiny signal is impossible to hear. But it is there - so I don't know what that means electronically as far as connectors being good vs. faulty and such.
-
See if you can find someone in your area with a 5-pin cable and/or another DS-5 (or DS-5R}. Seems like there is most likely an issue somewhere along the signal path, so you need to find out where the problem lies exactly.
By the way, have you tried adjusting the output gains on the back of the bass?
-
If you can't, ping me your address and I'll loan you an extra 5-pin cable.
-
Just thought, if you have the pickup selector on mute, you will indeed hear a tiny signal if your amp is high, have you tried all the selector positions with the 5 pin cable connected?
-
He mentioned that the pickup selector is working - and the 1/4" cable is passing signal as expected...
Ben, yes, you understood what I was trying to say about the DS5-R, the front panel Bass/Mono & Treble jacks are outputs and (unless the unit has been modified) are tied directly to the rear panel Bass/Mono & Treble jacks. So when you go TS from the bass to the front panel jack, it's just passing audio through to the rear jack and to your amp.
Here's an experiment... 5-pin cable connected only, amp volume low (just for testing), front panel Mono switch in Stereo, TS from either front panel jack to the amp input. Bass 1/4" jack should be passing sound from the neck pickup and the Treble 1/4" jack should be the bridge pickup. (Try all positions of the bass's pickup selector - 2 of the 4 positions should pass sound through each output.)
Try the same TS from the rear panel jacks and see what happens.
It does initially sound like you have a bad 5-pin cable, but for both "audio" channels to fail while the power is working fine is a surprise. However, now that I think about it... if either end's pin-1 ground connection has failed you'd still have LED power (because it only taps the + and - DC) but possibly no sound... Just an idea.
Try those experiments when you have a moment. Next step is to borrow a cable. You can also open up the DS5-R and post some pics so we can tell you if it has been modified.
We're getting there...
Jimmy J
-
Progress!!!
Adriaan - I have not tried adjusting the output gains on the back. My thinking is that if the signal level is good while using the 1/4" output jack on the bass, I can't think of a reason why the signal on the 5-pin would not be around the same level.
Edwardofhuncote - Thank you very kindly for the offer! I'm sending a PM now.
Jazzyvee - I just tried again very specifically and found that no, there is no signal from any pickup selector position with only the 5-pin cable connected. (When DS-5R Bass/Mono output jacks are used - see below)
JimmyJ - OMG progress!!! The gods have smiled. So, when I plugged in only the 5-pin cable connected from bass to DS-5R, only a 1/4" TS from DS-5R front panel Bass/Mono output jack to amp = nothing. Same from the rear panel Bass/Mono output jack to amp = nothing.
BUT... the same setup with only the 5-pin cable from bass to DS-5R, 1/4" TS from the front panel Treble output jack to the amp = THERE IS SOUND! If pickup mute position is #1, then positions #2 and #3 pass sound, #4 does not (the most clockwise position if you're looking straight down on the bass). DS-5R Rear panel Treble jack is the same, I have sound to the amp from the same pickup positions. I have never even tried the DS-5R Treble output jack since my whole signal chain is mono *shrug**eyeroll* LOL
-
Now that you found a way to hear one pickup try setting the DS-5R to stereo leaving everything else the same. You should hear the same thing and the pickup selector should work the same way. Then try the bass output using the same 1/4” cable leaving the DS-5R in stereo and see what happens.
-
Great progress! We're almost there! That is the correct operation for your bridge pickup's 'Treble" output jack - position-1 of the bass's p/u selector switch is mute, position-2 is bridge p/u only, -3 is both, -4 is neck p/u only. So at least we know that 1/2 is working correctly!
With the DS5-R in that same stereo mode, if you have no sound coming from the Bass 1/4" output then that makes me think your 5-pin cable has a short from pin-1 to pin-2, or pin-2 is touching the shell of one of the plugs and shorting to ground. This could, in mono mode, unintentionally mute all sound.
Do you know how to disassemble the 5-pin cable's connectors? I don't know which type you have but opening and inspecting them might reveal what's going on.
Keep experimenting, we've gotta get that bass working!!
Jimmy J
-
Still moving forward.... :)
JimmyJ - Opened up both of the end caps on my cable and don't see anything that looks out of place. The soldering work is really high quality, I was impressed. My cable is made from Canare L-4E6S microphone cable with Neutrik right-angle female/straight male connectors.
StephenR - I did try that and while I was getting the sound from the Treble output jack, moving that TS plug to the Bass/Mono output jack gave no sound. This was true with the DS-5R switch in stereo and also in mono (I tried every possible combination I could think of).
After checking the latest price list from Alembic regarding a replacement 5-pin cable, I ordered a section of that same type of cable and some connectors from an electronics supply house to try my hand at building myself a new cable. I've built several DIY amplifiers in the past so a new cable feels like it should be within my reach, it's the sort of project I don't seek out for kicks, but I'm happy to try if I need to make it happen.
-
I’m a little late to this one, but this is what I get with my DS-5R and 5-pin cable:
DS-5R stereo mode:
Plugged into the DS-5R treble out
Selector Treble position - yes sound
Selector middle position - yes Sound
Selector bass position - no sound
Plugged into the DS-5R bass out
Selector treble position - no sound
Selector middle position - yes Sound
Selector bass position - yes Sound
DS-5R mono mode:
Plugged into bass (mono) out on the DS-5R
Selector treble position - yes sound
Selector middle position - yes Sound
Selector bass position - yes Sound
-
Hope I didn't mislead you guys earlier -
Just now, 5-pin cable from bass to DS-5R, TS from Treble output jack to amp, DS-5R switch set to MONO -> Yes sound in pickup selector position #2 and #3.
The exact same results happen when DS-5R switch is set to STEREO with the identical connections as above -> Yes sound in pickup selector position #2 and #3.
Edit: this seemed so weird in my head but reading back I see this is what you all told me it should be doing.
I’m just trying to wrap my head around what this signal path means for the bass pickup/5-pin output on the bass/5-pin cable/5-pin connector on DS-5R/Bass/Mono output jack…
Thanks for all the help so far, we'll figure this out together! 😀
-
Looks like this conversation may have occurred in the past…
[... current link...] (https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=4850.0)
-
Looks like this conversation may have occurred in the past…
[... current link...] (https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=4850.0)
Good to see I was basically trying to tell the same story 12 years ago. Ha! And how about that interesting and simple result provided by Mica? One which I tend to forget: EXERCISE the dang switch! Snap that stereo/mono switch back and forth several hundred times and see if it will "wake up" and pass audio as it is supposed to.
That should have been my first suggestion. Let us know if it works.
Beyond that Ben, if you are a solderer then you probably have a volt-ohm meter? You could certainly check your current 5-pin cable for continuity from end to end, and insure that nothing is shorting. Something you need to know when building your new cable with any "quad" type wire like the Canare L-4E6S ... there are two white and two blue conductors so you NEED an ohmmeter to be sure you've matched pins from end to end.
Let us know if you get any further results!
Jimmy J
-
It works!!!!
Mica's suggestion to exercise the Stereo/Mono switch on the DS-5R has cured the problem completely.
Thank you so much to everyone for chiming in with different suggestions and ideas for troubleshooting. Also, thanks to rv_bass for finding that old thread and posting it here. To everyone, your help and support has been fantastic, and I appreciate it more than I can express.
Ben
-
Great news!
-
Fantastic, now fire it up and have some fun! :)
-
Excellent... now go play your beautiful bass!
-
Yay!! Now play!!!
Jimmy J