Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: jazzyvee on June 13, 2022, 10:24:43 AM
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Looks like my Dragon Magic guitar is gonna be a keeper.
Cruel trade in ivory to be illegal from today as world leading ban takes effect - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cruel-trade-in-ivory-to-be-illegal-from-today-as-world-leading-ban-takes-effect)
Also
Dealing in items containing ivory or made of ivory - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dealing-in-items-containing-ivory-or-made-of-ivory)
Worth noting for anyone trading instruments containing Ivory to or from UK citizens.
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There are probably ways of getting around it, legal ones, involving documentation from Alembic involving the sourcing. But if I were you I would just keep it anyway. I mean, how many Magic Dragon guitars are there in the world? ;D
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One luthier I know now uses "Mastodon Tusk"... or at least that is the way it is documented. California banned ivory in 2015, illegal to possess something made of or containing ivory with the intent to sell, or to offer for sale, no use or import allowed.
Such a cool and unique guitar, worth keeping.
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The ivory in the guitar is antique ivory, reclaimed from a piano keyboard. I’m not going to test that law by looking for legal loopholes. If i was going to sell it i guess i have to get the ivory replaced.
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The ivory in the guitar is antique ivory, reclaimed from a piano keyboard. I’m not going to test that law by looking for legal loopholes. If i was going to sell it i guess i have to get the ivory replaced.
That's funny (coincidental) this is exactly what I use; reclaimed piano keys. I didn't know that about your guitar! This is one of our banjo headstocks, inlaid entirely of repurposed piano keys. The truss rod cover/nameplate too.
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Maybe this is the impetus i need to make it my go to guitar. As it happens in the last 2 days i’ve been offered two local guitar gigs. One as part of the band for a saxophonist at a jazz festival and one as dep guitarist for another band at a reggae festival. Should be fun.
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Wow that could be a real killer for folks who have legal ivory in their instruments newer than 1975. I went through the help application the website refers to and according to it their is no way to get an exemption for instruments made after 1975 that contain elephant ivory. You would have thought their would be some type of exemptions for recycled ivory but I guess that would be logical so does not apply to governments. The only way I could see getting around the law would be likely be illegal but hard to prove. That would be using gifting exemption both ways but it would require subterfuge to keep the transfers from being tied together.
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You could “de-fang” and “de-claw” Dragon Magic, replacing the Ivory with another material. I suspect the ban wouldn’t apply to the Pink Ivory wood tongue.
Bill, tgo
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I did speak to Jaydee a few years ago about doing that but they were so busy with orders. They are a really small family business with massive order sheets so not gonna happen anytime soon.
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I Think i might try to contact customs and find out what i would need to do if i wanted to sell it or how to go about getting an exemption certificate if i get the ivory was replaced.
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We recently finished a de-ivorying of a vintage bass and are preparing to export it next week. It's not cheap but it is the way to be able to sell or travel safely with the guitar.
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I was skimming through some of the US Fish and Wildlife guidance on ivory today. Looks like there might be some exceptions for ivory in antique instruments, and those newer instruments with ivory obtained through acceptable sources prior to 1976, but I would have to look into it further since it looks like the laws and regulations may have changed a few times over the past decade or so.
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I just followed the guidance checker on the gov web site and the response i cannot trade. So. i will have to find a solution.
The alternatives stated are, keep it, give it away or leave it to someone in my will.
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We recently finished a de-ivorying of a vintage bass and are preparing to export it next week. It's not cheap but it is the way to be able to sell or travel safely with the guitar.
Once you finished to de-ivorying job did you have to get/provide a certificate to prove that all ivory is removed before shipping?
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Since I export under license from the US Fish and Wildlife department all the time, I don't expect to need to state anything once there is no ivory. The documents must be signed under penalty of perjury in regards the animal products contained, so a declaration on the invoice of something like "contains no ivory. All ivory colored materials are synthetic" should suffice.
That being said, we are providing the customer with photos of the ivory being removed, the synthetic ivory being inlaid, and a sample of the synthetic ivory for comparison/testing if needed.
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Even though i’m affected by this new law, i am supportive of the reasons behind the amendment. Though it is inconvenient and possibly an expensive thing to fix.
I guess on the plus side the guitar has an added security factor in that, if it was ever stolen and sold on, as well as being fined for theft and receiving stolen goods, both are facing a £250,000 fine and up to £5 years in prison each. Ouch what a hot potato!!!
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I have potentially found a couple of inlay artistes to visit to see what they could do. One guy said he thinks it would be about 2 hours work so hopefully I can find time to take it for him to look at first to see what he would do if I gave him the job. After I have seen a few other inlay artistes I will decide.
Any suggestions for materials other than ivory for the teeth. I know there is synthetic ivory but I think i'd rather have something that has no reference to the name ivory.
I've been playing this guitar almost every day since I posted this thread as I have 3 guitar sets under my fingers for some festival gigs.
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Silver is always a good choice!
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How about a material that picks up some of the colors in the scales? From the photos some of the whiter and grey pieces look like they would give have good contrast without being too dark.
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I would imagine teeth and claws could be replaced with some nice white/cream MOP that would still look good.
Bill, tgo
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I'm booked in for Saturday morning for an assessement. Can i be confident that the ivory is the only CITES restricted items on the guitar?
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That being said, we are providing the customer with photos of the ivory being removed, the synthetic ivory being inlaid, and a sample of the synthetic ivory for comparison/testing if needed.
I think I will ask for that to be done when the time comes also just to be cautious.
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Cocobolo is on Appendix II but as lumber. As a finished product it should be exempt.
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Thanks Mica. 8)
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I have just got back from the inlay guy and he said he could do the work but has a few concerns.
- Some of the claw inlays are really close to the edge of the fretboard and there is a danger of losing the ebony at those places
- A couple of the inlays are really close to, or seem to go under the frets which means they may need to be removed and reseated without damaging the rest of the inlays.
So he has taken a few photos and will let me know what he thinks he can do to avoid affecting the fretboard negatively.
One of his suggestions was to see if Alembic could make another fretboard with CITES friendly materials. But I am sure that would be a prohibitively expensive option especially since this one has leds too. Maybe mica could PM me a guide price for that option.
Also, removing the existing fretboard and replacing with a plain ebony is another option, however I expect it could reduce the intrinsic value significantly as the inlays are what makes it uniquely special.
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I went to a local guitar show today and found a small guitar making business and had a long chat with the owner about removing the ivory and he is confident to do it with no detriment to the guitar. I had to pop home to get it for him to check out as they are not local to me and he was able to make better assessment. So all being well it should be done sometime towards the middle of the year. He is thinking of replacing with mother of pearl.
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The latest is that African Mahogany was just added to the Cites list.
Bill, tgo
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I've found a luthier now to remove the ivory from this guitar and replace it with something else. It's a Luthier calked Crimson guitars who and way down in Dorset the south west of the country. I had a long chat with him at a guitar show yesterday. One of my friends is an endorsee for them which helped my decision making, plus i have seen many of his youtube videos over the years on many aspects of guitar making and setups etc. Since it's a rare guitar he asked if he could video the whole process for their youtube channel. I said yes since that would be an asset to prove the ivory has been removed. I just need to decide on what material to replace the ivory with. The plan is to take the guitar to him this afternoon when they finish at the guitar show which is fairly close to where i live and it could be done really quickly. Will keep you filled in on how it progresses.
https://www.youtube.com/@CrimsonCustomGuitars/videos (https://www.youtube.com/@CrimsonCustomGuitars/videos)
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Looks like a professional outfit and the video documentation will be nice for verification.
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So this guy walks into my shop, and says; "hey buddy, whudduh you charge to de-claw a dragon...?" 🤯🤑😄
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The irony is, the law would prohibit taking the instrument out of the UK to sell or even lend it in another country, but someone from the UK is actually allowed to purchase or rent the exact same item abroad.
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Maybe but not bring it back into the UK i expect.
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Maybe but not bring it back into the UK i expect.
It doesn’t actually seem to say that as I recall, and there are musical instrument exemptions for pre-1974 as well as for museums.
I’m always curious when I see a press release and try to find the original text. Often, press releases overstate what has been done, and leave out the loopholes built in to the laws. I feel that journalists should be required to post a link to whatever law they write about, because they often either get it wrong or just copy a press release.
Life tends to be easier though if you don’t try to live through the loopholes, all that being said.
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Well I contacted the Government office and explained my situation with the guitar and was told that if i sell the guitar containing ivory i would be liable for a huge fine and/or jail sentence. Neither of which sounds desirable so i'm not taking any chances. Better to get it done sooner rather than later.
I have just handed the guitar over to the luthier and he's taken time to explain to me how he will do the work. It's going to be sterling silver for the teeth and black MOP for the claws. To say i'm anxious is an understatement. ??? :-[
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Well I contacted the Government office and explained my situation with the guitar and was told that if i sell the guitar containing ivory i would be liable for a huge fine and/or jail sentence. Neither of which sounds desirable so i'm not taking any chances. Better to get it done sooner rather than later.
I have just handed the guitar over to the luthier and he's taken time to explain to me how he will do the work. It's going to be sterling silver for the teeth and black MOP for the claws. To say i'm anxious is an understatement. ??? :-[
Hopefully it all goes well.
What are you doing with the ivory pieces afterwards?
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I have no interest in those pieces so i guess they will be disposed of in some way.
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I spoke to Crimson guitars on Thursday and they expect to start work on Monday. Fingers crossed that the task proves to be problem free.
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Getting the ivory bits out is the easy part... fitting the new teeth and claws is where the skilled labor will show. The nice thing about inlaying into an ebony fingerboard is that you can use black filler. Not so easy to hide a sloppy fit with rosewood or another wood with discernable patterns.
I used rosewood dust with the epoxy to inlay Honeytone #28 here. At the time, all I had was a Dremel and router base, so there's a border. I wasn't too happy with it. The rosewood darkened up a lot after finish-sanding and polishing, then oil-treating, so it hid some of the slop. I learned a lot from this one. Mostly, what not to do. There's still a "stupid" trophy hanging over my workbench to remind me of one episode.
FWIW, this one is ivory too, every individual piece is cut from reclaimed piano keys. A good friend of mine repairs and tunes pianos... and saves these little scraps for me. I use them for all kinds of things in the shop. Guess #28 won't ever become the world traveler some of her sisters have been. Come to think of it, there are at least four more banjos with ivory inlay we did; 19, 21, 25, and 26. 20 had a couple pieces of it too, but was destroyed in a fire. I may re-create that design for #30.
I'll be anxious to see Dragon Magic again, Jazzy. One of my favorite Alembics out there.
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I'm extremely anxious as it's the only time it has been out of my possession since i bought it in 2019. I won't be relaxed until i get it back.
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OK, just got off the phone with Ben from Crimson Guitars and he is planning to finish the guitar for me to collect on Sunday.
For the teeth and claws he is planning to make and use Mokume Gane out of gold and silver. Which i had never heard of but once i had a look on line, i can see it is used extensively in jewellery. The idea is that it would add some texture visually to the teeth and claws.
I will post pictures as they come through.
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My wedding ring is Mokume Gane. Different metals (yellow, white, and rose gold) mixed to create a wood-like grain pattern. Looking forward to pics when it’s done.
Bill, tgo
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Seems like the Mokome Gane is not cutting the mustard so it's going to be silver.
I got a couple of photos, one of the claws is out now so it's really happening.
There was going to be two videos of the work, one of removal and one of the inlay process. However today he was extolling the excellence of all aspects of the guitar and asked if he could do a youtube ideo showing off the guitar, the ethos behind the alembic design and sound then ask his youtube followers if they thought the guitar was worth £x. However before that happens i plan to email Mica for a current price for a new one of the same spec and also if she has any reservations about that kind of review as i don't want to promote any ignorant criticism about our beloved brand. That said i kind of think it should be based at the original price when it was made. Any thoughts?
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First claw removed and the plan is to make rubber castings of the spaces where the ivory was then ink stamp them on to the inlay material then cut the teeth and claws out.
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That is an interesting approach. I was wondering how they would get the thickness of the inlays so they would be flush with the fingerboard's surface without defretting the guitar. A 3D model for the pieces will help.
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Seems like the Mokome Gane is not cutting the mustard so it's going to be silver.
I got a couple of photos, one of the claws is out now so it's really happening.
There was going to be two videos of the work, one of removal and one of the inlay process. However today he was extolling the excellence of all aspects of the guitar and asked if he could do a youtube ideo showing off the guitar, the ethos behind the alembic design and sound then ask his youtube followers if they thought the guitar was worth £x. However before that happens i plan to email Mica for a current price for a new one of the same spec and also if she has any reservations about that kind of review as i don't want to promote any ignorant criticism about our beloved brand. That said i kind of think it should be based at the original price when it was made. Any thoughts?
While the video sounds cool, the whole “do you think it is worth £X?” seems a bit irrelevant.
After all, the only thing that matters is if you think it was worth it to you, and anything other than whether or not the extra paid for the artwork is worth it can’t be answered by anyone who has not played an Alembic.
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I completely agree it was completely worth it to me. Except the import duty and VAT which was painful.
There are a lot of that kind of videos comparing the same model of guitars such as squire, usa and custom shop guitars and basses. But I don't think you can really evaluate the worth of any guitar in a test like that until you have personally played each for a significant enough period of time. Especially an alembic as I imagine the percentage of guitarist with alembic experience is tiny compared to other models.
Unless you know what went into making this guitar a simple price comparison won't tell the full story. Plus personal taste in sound, aesthetics, ergonimics are not directly related to price.
Sadly the reality of the internet is that even if I said no to the price comparison aspect it would only be a short time before a commenter/troll throws that hat in the ring and it WILL change the nature of the comment thread to that type of thread.
And in many of these threads, commenters often quote the diminishing returns aspect and i am so tempted to write something sarcastic.
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Great post, with a number of excellent points Jazzy.
I watch a bunch of similar review videos about various acoustic guitars and items that acoustic guitarists use, and what you've described is precisely what happens in these as well. One cannot be expected to form much other than a first impression from these. Furthermore, the thread drift of commentary is often driven into the ditch by at least a couple folks who couldn't shape an augmented chord if their gig depended on it.
The way I feel about it; most of us would not be here if we hadn't at some point experienced something about an Alembic and decided just good guitars (and basses) weren't quite good enough. It's really hard to un-hear that. And then there's the personal connection. For instance, you know who drew that elegant Dragon in your guitar... same lady who drew the simple Chain in my bass. We are connected to these things, so there is a value beyond the intrinsic. The older I get, the less-interested I am in sharing that story with an audience that mostly won't 'get it'.
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Here is the first video with most of the claws out.
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Thanks for posting. Noticed the text came up as Olympic.
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I always figured that guitar was heavy Jazzy, but I never figured it was 40,000 pounds. 😳😄
I am actually quite curious/interested in these chisels... maybe the next installment will cover them.
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You are on the ball today Greg.
Joking aside, if you were to have the same thing made today with the current retail price of 33500 then add the premium woods, coco bolo, front and back and the inlay then i think the price is pretty accurate, in terms of English Pounds taking into account shipping and tax, vat and duty. I'm so glad i bought it used way back when it was affordable, but still not cheap. When it comes back i'm aiming for it use it live more than I have done up till now, which i think is just about 5 or 6 times.
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Just watching this video.
The comments are developing just as i thought they would once an estimated value of the guitar was added to the video. Thankfully i didn't pay anywhere near £40k for it. 8)
Possibility of it being ready to collect this weekend.
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I enjoyed watching this process. Must say, the fellow was surely very careful in the removal.
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Hey Jazzy, has Senior Management seen this video? She might get a bit jealous given the manner in which he describes your relationship to Dragon Magic! Of course he is obviously taking a bit of poetic license when he states how you commissioned the guitar and bought it new. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think he ever explains about CITES and why he's removing the ivory. I must admit I find it absurd that, in the great scheme of things, the attempt to protect Elephants requires the destruction of the ivory inlays!
Bill, tgo
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I must admit I find it absurd that, in the great scheme of things, the attempt to protect Elephants requires the destruction of the ivory inlays!
The biggest irony of all is that if we farmed elephants the way we do cows, pigs, sheep, etc. there'd be plenty of them.
I get why that would also be a distasteful prospect to many, and it's not like I'm hankering for an elephant burger or feel the need to use products derived from elephants. Still, the profit motive and market forces tend can be pretty potent forces for conservation and preservation.
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Thanks for sharing the video.
Felt a tad anxious in a few spots. 😳
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Hi Bill, i have noted the poetic license and have drafted an email to that end as I don't want the whole process to be mis-represented. Also the CITES aspect does need to be mentioned since that would help viewers understand the reasoning behind the removal. The removal part was suggested to me as one option when I spoke to a HMRC representative about the ivory content in the guitar. And at one point there was exclusions for the age of the instrument and the amount of ivory contained in the instrument but now, my understanding is any ivory needs to be confirmed as not coming from an elephant. So whilst it is a costly exercise it means i could sell it in the future without finding myself in secure state accomodation. :-).
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Pauldo, i was anxious watching the whole thing. Hopefully some pictures are on the way which i will add to the thread.
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Inlay finished and the aim is to collect it tomorrow by taking a 2 hr diversion on the way to my festival gig in the evening. 🤞🏾🫣🥳
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Sounds good. I bet you are happy to have it back in your possession.
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Yep picked it this afternoon. He’s made a really good job of it from what i can see. I also had the frets dressed. And a setup which isn’t low enough for me so will adjust it sometime next week.
Here are the photos. A video of the process or putting in the Sterling silver is beign edited and should be out next week sometime. The guitar review is not going ahead because they feel that it doesn't fit into what they do which mostly about building and repairing guitars. Not reviewing .
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Looks good! I'm sure you are happy to have the process behind you and successfully completed!
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Very nice.
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Here is the video of the inlaying of sterling silver. I Haven't watched it yet but am just about to. Hopefully I will enjoy it. Pick up your coffee or join me for an Engllish Tea :- whilst you watch it.
I guess you stateside guys are used to adverts every few minutes from your TV service and often wonder if you get irritated by them or not?
I it's hard for me to get to the end of most you tube videos even for ones that I am really keen to watch for that reason.
Anyway I guess this journey is complete. I'm so glad there was no ivory in the headstock logo. 8)
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Looks like they've done a nice, clean job retaining the original aesthetic of your Dragon Magic guitar, Jazzy. I think the sterling silver was a good choice for replacement, and well-executed. 8)
Commercials must be universally obnoxious. I reckon everybody gotta' pay bills though! ;D
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There's always YouTube Premium. At a premium of course, but no more interruptions.
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There's always YouTube Premium. At a premium of course, but no more interruptions.
I think I've seen the commercial for that... 🤣
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Also Mica kindly added a note about the ivory removal in the custom archive page, which i am grateful for, as should i put it up for sale it should give confidence that the buyer is not going to be siezed by customs due to ivory content that the guitar originally had.
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It made me smile when one of the comments online about replacing the ivory with silver was the added weight. I imagine any extra weight would not be more than a couple or three cashew nuts. And completely swamped by the coco bolo.