Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: s_wood on January 29, 2022, 09:29:51 AM
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I'm not sure how common this point of view is among Alembicians, but there are lots of intelligent musicians who truly believe that differences in tonewoods don't affect the tone of an electric guitar or bass.
This study, recently published by several researchers in Department of Mechanics and Vibroacoustics at the AGH University of Science and Technology in Cracow, Poland, strongly suggests that different tonewoods in an electric guitar produces a measurable and audible difference in sound:
Jasinski et al. Archives of Acoustics 2021, vol. 46 no. 4, pp. 571-578. https://journals.pan.pl/Content/121810/PDF/aoa.2021.138150.pdf?handler=pdf (https://journals.pan.pl/Content/121810/PDF/aoa.2021.138150.pdf?handler=pdf)
Abstract (excerpt):
"The presented study examined how the sound of a simplified electric guitar changes with the use of various wood species. Multiple sounds were recorded using a specially designed test setup and their analysis showed differences in both spectral envelope and the generated signal level."
Conclusion (excerpt):
"The tonewood used in the construction of an electric guitar can have an impact on the sound produced by the instrument. Changes are observed in both spectral envelope and the produced signal levels, and their magnitude exceeds just noticeable differences found in the literature. Most listeners, despite the lack of a professional listening environment, could distinguish between the recordings made with different woods regardless of the played pitch and the pickup used. The conducted test does not allow any conclusions regarding a more holistic outlook on a guitar’s timbre, as the observed relations are complex beyond the scope of the obtained results. Further tests regarding the guitar’s entire frequency response are required. It should also be noted that these tests were conducted based on a simplified guitar model, which might have overemphasized the researched phenomenon.”
Pretty cool...
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I'd say for electric guitar and bass #1 pickups and electronics
then construction (neck thru or other), scale length, quality of build and hardware, and neck and fretboard wood.
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Never underestimate fingers. They are a very important part of the stew that influences an instrument’s tone.
Bill, tgo
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I agree with the study. Having had the opportunity to listen to two basses that were essentially identical except one has a maple top and the other a walnut top I will say you can hear a distinct difference between them. While the woods might not affect the pickups and electronics they certainly interact with the strings and they way they vibrate. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise.
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This youtube video is an interesting watch, though I think wood does affect tone.
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I’ve seen the video before. It seems to contend that pickups are 95%, if not 100% of the equation. Who knows if those are the actual recordings or how it was recorded? And I suspect my tiny computer speakers offer less than stellar reproduction of sound. Nevertheless, IMHO wood does enter into the mix.
Bill, tgo
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Any time this (or a similar) topic comes up I like to share a quote I heard from John Amaral way back in 1978; he said
"Everything makes a difference in the sound of an instrument. The real question is, can you hear that difference?"
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I never understood how this is even a question. The sound is a result of sound waves bouncing off the top of the instrument and being picked up by a pickup or the ears if its an acoustic instrument. While not a physicist, I'd think the sound waves would reflect differently based on the type of wood used.
If there was no difference in tone due to woods, an upright bass made of plywood would sound no different than one made from " real " wood.
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I closely agree with that quote " can you hear that difference?" for me personally. Maybe we should be listening to the un-amplified sound of the bass/guitar to hear what construction woods, and build style are doing, since ultimately the strings vibrations are what we are hoping will be affected.
Maybe an acoustic contact pickup would be the way to go as that would take all the onboard electronics and magnetic pickups out of the equation.
I personally i have no idea what to listen to in order to hear the construction wood's component of the sound or even if my ears are good enough to decifer these differences it from the sound I hear.
Alway an interesting topic to read.
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I closely agree with that quote " can you hear that difference?" for me personally. Maybe we should be listening to the un-amplified sound of the bass/guitar to hear what construction woods, and build style are doing, since ultimately the strings vibrations are what we are hoping will be affected.
Maybe an acoustic contact pickup would be the way to go as that would take all the onboard electronics and magnetic pickups out of the equation.
I personally i have no idea what to listen to in order to hear the construction wood's component of the sound or even if my ears are good enough to decifer these differences it from the sound I hear.
Alway an interesting topic to read.
I was fortunate enough to own a coco-bolo topped S2 and a maple topped S1 at the same time at one point in my life.
The difference between the two was to my ears night and day. The maple instrument had far more " zing " to it than the coco-bolo instrument which always seemed to have darker overtones associated with it. Obviously this was an unscientific comparison, but I did do my best at times to set both instruments as flat as I could and compare the two. Of course it could just all be my bias but I remember when that S2 was sent back to Alembic for some work, Mica told me she heard it being played and without even seeing the bass said she knew it was coco-bolo.
One thing that is a question I have is what if the wood is sealed with a poly finish of some type and not just oil rubbed? Soundwaves are than bouncing off a flat, poly surface and not making it to the tone woods I am assuming.
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Wood also changes as it ages. I also think that the fretboard must have something to do with the sound, since for most of the length of the string it is directly over the neck.
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The difference from bass to bass is indeed night and day. I have 2 Alembics with Series II electronics. One of them is Walnut topped, maple and walnut neck. The other is Maple topped with Graphite neck. HUGE difference!
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Based on my own experience, I think fingerboard wood may possibly affect tone more than any other wood parts of the instrument. Ebony definitely has a certain "thing". A friend once argued that "the strings don't even touch the fingerboard because of the frets." Well, what are the frets embedded into? ;D
But really, I think the biggest factor is pickups. As an example, my recently sold 1984 Hamer Blitz (Explorer) was all mahogany with a set neck and rosewood 'board. With DiMarzio P/J pickups, it sounded exactly like a P Bass when I soloed that pickup.
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Good conversation, I think I'll jump in.
I would vote for the #1 thing that makes any electric instrument sound as is does is YOU. Your hands, the way you strike the string, even the way you hold the string to the fret. I've seen so many examples of this in my years of playing. That particular guitar player will sound like themselves on whatever instrument they play. "Look, Bob got a great new guitar ... and he sounds just like the old Bob."
The details WILL make a difference to you as the one playing the instrument. But just be aware they are subtle and likely undetectable by others.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue the details. Partaking in "the quest" is not a bad thing, although it can be expensive if you fall completely down that rabbit hole. (Wait, who am I talking to in here? HA!)
One could certainly argue that the specific wood used on a Stradivarius makes a difference. The differences may be more profound for acoustic instruments whose bodies are built to project the sound. Although again, I would happily listen to Yoyo Ma play on a plexiglass cello if he decided to try one - or if one existed.
I know that Mica and the Alembic team have spent a great deal of time and energy working out the effect different woods have on tone production. I'm not arguing with that. Just suggesting - I believe this variable puts the "b" in subtle.
My own experience is this: I fell in love with the sound of a Series I 4-string bass in 1975. Got my first 5-string made in '76 and that was that! I loved the sounds I could make with these basses and never turned back. When I lost that original 5-string in '87 I had a replacement made with the same wood choices and the same dimensions. To avoid living through that loss again, a couple years later I had two more instruments made in the same style, one fretted and one fretless. The fretless was later changed to a fretted becoming a 3rd copy of my original.
So now I own 3 Series-II 5-string basses made of the same woods and with the same dimensions as my original 1976 model. But guess what? I have clear preferences between these basses. The one I like best is my recording bass. #2 is my road bass. And #3 is my daily practice bass which I also take on the road as a spare. These three "identical" axes are quite different, but I suspect only to ME. I don't think anybody hearing me play one or the other could spot this difference.
Now Michael D, I also have a graphite necked fretless which is pretty clearly a different animal. A through-body graphite neck, like aluminum I suppose, compresses the sound quite a bit. In fact, it compresses the dynamics to the point that I find it difficult to play soft and loud without moving the master volume control, if you see what I mean. It also sustains longer so the notes don't taper off as they do on my other basses - which I find ideal for a fretless. So that is pretty clearly a different sound. And yet I still get asked occasionally by people who should know better: "did you play fretless on that tune"? So while these basses are hugely different to me, it seems that I still just sound like me. HA!
I enjoyed that YouTube vid and appreciate the effort and almost scientific approach he took to the research. Good sustain on that air guitar too. Perhaps due to the 400lb bridge block?
Jimmy J
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Another factor that can have a surprisingly significant effect on the instruments tone, at least for guitars, is the lowly pick. Take three different material/thickness picks and play them back to back to back. I recently tried this with my regular Dunlop Tortex .88, a 1.6 mm Telefunken graphite triangle that Harry (Heironymous) gave me, and a 2mm Adamas graphite. I was quite surprised by the difference in sound. As a result I’ve since switched to the Telefunken.
Bill, tgo
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It all matters.
I never get into these discussions elsewhere, because I don't like to argue for what I already believe, quite firmly. I'm not going to change my mind until my ears tell me to. That, and there's always some guy who want to convince me a cardboard box guitar is just as good. And I'm cool with that... go 'head.
What Bill said. It was a hard thing to accept, because I had played guitar with a thick, hard pick since... forever, (thanks to Norman Blake and Tony Rice, et al...) but as I tried to expand and grow into an electric guitar player, it didn't work. No matter what I did, it didn't sound like I wanted it to, so I had to adapt. A lighter pick was required for the much lighter gauge strings. Not to mention the lighter touch. So, it was not only the instrument, but accessories, and the user being familiar with the operational limits of the tools. I have also learned, even though I am not a fingerstyle player, that I can pull double and triple-stops with free fingers, while plucking. Could have been doing this all along, but never needed to. Point being, that was a whole new sound I could access and now having to plug in. And... all this directly affects how the controls are set on the instrument. And the amp. What a loop.
My Dad used to repeat often about building our banjos; [paraphrasing] that it was most important that nothing be in a bind, to set the instrument up 'neutral'. Everything should fit together and be flush and plumb, nothing force-fit or sloppy. A sloppy neck-to-shell joint absolutely kills one, no sustain, no ring. If I heard this once I heard it a thousand times. I think it's directly related to why the neck-through construction of an Alembic supports sustain so well... it eliminates ways for sustain to be diminished.
I like Jimmy's analysis. My two Alembic 5-strings are built on each other's specs, on purpose. 32" medium-scale, 3 purpleheart laminates in a maple beam, mahogany body core, maple faces, a fretted one fretless, both profiled alike. Electronically, very similar too. The Custom has a couple extras, but essentially the same core V/P/F/Q-3 set. They came out sounding close enough. Yeah, there's some differences, but subtle enough that I doubt if anyone but me notices. If they notice anything, it's my sketchy intonation on the fretless.
I'd have to say, I still sound like me on either one... and that was precisely the idea - so I could switch between the two of them interchangeably.
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I’ll just add, it’s a system of sound from fingers (or pick) to speakers and everything in between. :)
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I have a couple of basses with various wood combinations. So, I recorded each one unplugged thinking I would be hearing the influence of the woods resonating the sound acoustically. I recorded them with an iPhone.
The Alembics are all Series basses with the same brass hardware and sustain blocks, except the teak-oak, koa-birch, and zebra-koa ones that have wooden tail pieces capped with a brass plate. The koa-birch is fretless. The non-Alembics are all short scale. The long scales are all strung with Labella low tension flats. The short scales are strung with Pyramid gold flats.
My first impression is that Jimmy is right, they all sound like me :)
https://app.box.com/s/oyw4bg7iiback927s25r2spyfzfspz91
Next I will record them plugged in to see if the woods and electronics have a noticeable effect on the sound.
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I would vote for the #1 thing that makes any electric instrument sound as is does is YOU. Your hands, the way you strike the string, even the way you hold the string to the fret.
Jimmy J
I should have prefaced my comments with this, but yeah, agree 100%.
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I've been a Luthier for 4 decades , every piece of wood has a different tone. The difference is more noticeable in semi hollow and hollow body instruments where the wood has a chance to resonate a bit more than the sandwich method. The Janka hardness scale is a good reference point for density . I've experimented with different woods and combinations for years. PRS has a nice TED talk on this .
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I learned that give me just about any bass and any amp, about 5 minutes to twist knobs and feel my way around, and I'm going to sound like me.
Granted, I sound like a way better me on an Alembic and a serious rig, but gimme a Squier and a Peavey amp, it's still me. Sure I can hear some differences in some axes (an all African hardwood Warwick DEFINITELY sounds like an all African hardwood Warwick, and Fenders always sound like alder and maple, but past that, who knows?), but I believe right down to a molecular level, musicians have some random chromosome that makes each individual shoot for that 'you' sound that's unique to your own perception.
But then, the eternal question: What IF the clue to the Alembic tone is all the feet of glue in the laminate joints? ? ? ? To quote a famous musician, HAH!
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One thing I've told several clients and students over the years, no matter what I build , or you play ..you will always sound like you. That's a blessing , instruments if we make them right will just allow the talent of the artist to shine through . The better the instrument , the less impediment to getting what is in the soul out in the air .
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To echo off of Joey and James - we do sound like Us.
And Us (at least for me) is an amalgam of bassists that I have listened to before...
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To echo off of Joey and James - we do sound like Us.
And Us (at least for me) is an amalgam of bassists that I have listened to before...
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together... :)
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To echo off of Joey and James - we do sound like Us.
And Us (at least for me) is an amalgam of bassists that I have listened to before...
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together... :)
Ahh, but the question remains: Who is the egg man?
hehehehe
Bill, tgo
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This is quite interesting, at the end it is more about the player and experience than anything else... quite fun to watch
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To echo off of Joey and James - we do sound like Us.
And Us (at least for me) is an amalgam of bassists that I have listened to before...
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together... :)
Ahh, but the question remains: Who is the egg man?
hehehehe
Bill, tgo
No idea on the Eggman - if we look through the bent back tulips it will reveal who the Walrus is :-)
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I have friend and fellow cross country ski coach from Northfield Mn, Dave Folland. Dave’s full time job is making violins, violas, cellos, and one could probably get him to build a bass if one had the money. Dave’s instruments are highly sought after and played by professionals from around the world. Starting price for a basic violin is $35,000-38,000. For a cello is $75,000. I’ve never asked him about the cost of an upright cause when you can’t afford the little violin it would be pretty foolish to ask about something thats so much bigger. Now Dave of course is building acoustic instruments but it’s surprising how many are requested with pick ups nowadays. He once told me that he returns 98% of the wood he orders for his instruments and of course this is from specialty suppliers. Although I don’t understand the process, he’s told me that when selecting wood, he always wants to know not only where the wood came from (He prefers woods from Central Europe and often uses Yugoslavian maple), but exactly when it was cut as well as the age of the tree when it was cut. Apparently changes in the weather that occur when a tree is growing can affect not only growth rates but its density. He checks for optimal density through running an electrical current through pieces of wood and has said that he often soaks some of his woods in water before using them and only uses those that don’t produce cracks when they dry
He specializes in not only making instruments for individual musicians but matched sets for trios and quartets because both the woods and his carving of them can have such a significant effect on how instruments sound when they are played together.
Not an electric guitar or bass but I’m sure Dave would argue that while the artistry involved in making a string instrument, including specific tricks violin makers use when finishing their works of art, make a difference, if you don’t start out with the right raw materials nothing else will matter.
Follandviolins.com
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"He specializes in not only making instruments for individual musicians but matched sets for trios and quartets because both the woods and his carving of them can have such a significant effect on how instruments sound when they are played together. "
Y'all let that soak in for a while...
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Personally, and can hear the differences in sound of my alembics but I don't kid myself that i can distinguish the differences that would be entirely due to the wood choice in the construction above everything else. On that basis with the alembics I have bought new and used I have tended to choose woods more because of it's aesthetic, and take comfort in their experience in wood choices. So far I haven't owned or played one i don't like the sound of regardless of woods.
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There are so many things that go into the construction of an Alembic bass guitar that it would be difficult if not impossible to isolate what aspect of the instrument contributed to the sound because these instruments are in fact still handmade by artisans. A mass produced tool might be easier to use for this research. A little thicker body, a subtle difference in the thickness of a stringer, how much of the inside is carved out, and of course there are the magical electronics.
I know that it’s clear to my ears (as bad as they are) that my basses with an ebony stringers in the neck sound quite different that those whose necks are maple and purple heart. And the bass with a maple core is different sounding than all the others that are mahogany cored. I don’t hear that much difference based on the exterior lams.
What actually amazes me more that the different tonal qualities of my Alembic basses (which are subtle), is how easily I can tweak them to get “my tone” and then with a couple of tweaks of the controls and the super filter get these basses to sound like those of John Entwistle, Chris Squire, and others who play with a tone entirely different than I do. So while these basses do have their individual nature, there is always that consistency so if you want then to sound like an Alembic they will.
Of course I have my favorites even among the Series basses that I own because part of unique nature of these instruments is that they are all really custom built. The fastest neck by far is the one on my custom Signature standard, the easiest necks to play is my SC signature standard and SC series I, but the tonal qualities I like most come from the series basses, several of which don’t play quite as easily, but have a better sound.
What really gets me is the massive difference I experience when I play an Alembic and then something else. That’s present even when there’s a connection between Alembic and the other manufacturer.