Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: rv_bass on August 26, 2021, 07:36:24 AM
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Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?
Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of all jazz is half improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are playing something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's wrong.
Interviewer: I don't understand.
Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.
Interviewer: Do you understand it?
Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't know anything about it.
Interviewer: Are there any great jazz players alive today?
Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead.
Interviewer: What is syncopation?
Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds.
Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.
Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz that well.
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Strange… I believe that I do understand.
We know nothing. One wrong note is another player’s correct note. Off beat is right on! :D
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Too funny. I like playing jazz as well as almost all other types of music and I worked at it in particular back in the 70's when keyboardist Jeff Lorber taught at the community college I was attending. I recently saw a Craigslist ad looking for some jazz musicians to get together and play and responded that I was interested, but I also mentioned that I did not like 'jazz snobs'. This is some of what I got back in a reply:
"Most jazz musicians that I know dedicate themselves to a lifetime of rigorous training. It follows, a sizable number of we academic types may, on occasion, fall a little short on respect for the sort of musician who either builds a career out of three chords or who otherwise does little more with jazz than poke at it a little from a critical distance.
Jazz isn’t limited to entertainment, Dave. Many consider jazz a form of spiritual discipline. John Coltrane might tell you that Jazz is philosophy. So, I expect Coltrane was one of those annoying snobs you’re talking about.
I hope this helps you understand why jazz musicians make you feel a bit insecure."
I felt like responding with something pretty rude, but since I know many world class jazz musicians who don't act like him I just let it go...
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Too funny. I like playing jazz as well as almost all other types of music and I worked at it in particular back in the 70's when keyboardist Jeff Lorber taught at the community college I was attending. I recently saw a Craigslist ad looking for some jazz musicians to get together and play and responded that I was interested, but I also mentioned that I did not like 'jazz snobs'. This is some of what I got back in a reply:
"Most jazz musicians that I know dedicate themselves to a lifetime of rigorous training. It follows, a sizable number of we academic types may, on occasion, fall a little short on respect for the sort of musician who either builds a career out of three chords or who otherwise does little more with jazz than poke at it a little from a critical distance.
Jazz isn’t limited to entertainment, Dave. Many consider jazz a form of spiritual discipline. John Coltrane might tell you that Jazz is philosophy. So, I expect Coltrane was one of those annoying snobs you’re talking about.
I hope this helps you understand why jazz musicians make you feel a bit insecure."
I felt like responding with something pretty rude, but since I know many world class jazz musicians who don't act like him I just let it go...
In the words of the immortal Jeff Spicolli in re Mr. Hand - "What a dick!"
I think his response helps us understand that he is intimidated by people who can actually do it. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall hearing a lot about 'Trane's academic background........
Because of Her health issues, the county's Elder Care Services sends the Lovely & Charming Mrs. Cowboy an aide to help around the house; Her current one (well, not after today; she's going back to school; next week) is a music major & an a incredible jazz singer. I read her the Yogi thing, and she was rolling on the floor.
Peter (who is - admittedly not entirely by choice - largely a proponent of cowboy chords)
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I think Yogi was right on…don’t think about it, just do it! :)
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jazz
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Most excellent, JV!!
Peter
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jazz
Nice…
Dare I say Great.
Paul (who was thrilled to see Doodle Bronson laying it down)
;D ;D ;D
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That explanation is brilliant - I have passed it on. Very funny.
Glynn
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jazz
That was great.
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The Fast Show for the win!
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Too funny. I like playing jazz as well as almost all other types of music and I worked at it in particular back in the 70's when keyboardist Jeff Lorber taught at the community college I was attending. I recently saw a Craigslist ad looking for some jazz musicians to get together and play and responded that I was interested, but I also mentioned that I did not like 'jazz snobs'. This is some of what I got back in a reply:
"Most jazz musicians that I know dedicate themselves to a lifetime of rigorous training. It follows, a sizable number of we academic types may, on occasion, fall a little short on respect for the sort of musician who either builds a career out of three chords or who otherwise does little more with jazz than poke at it a little from a critical distance.
Jazz isn’t limited to entertainment, Dave. Many consider jazz a form of spiritual discipline. John Coltrane might tell you that Jazz is philosophy. So, I expect Coltrane was one of those annoying snobs you’re talking about.
I hope this helps you understand why jazz musicians make you feel a bit insecure."
I felt like responding with something pretty rude, but since I know many world class jazz musicians who don't act like him I just let it go...
I realize I'm relatively new here, and acknowledge that compared to most here I'm probably a terrible bass player; my primary instrument is piano, and I've made most of my performing professional living as a jazz and classical pianist although my degrees and schooling are as a violinist. My jazz piano "heroes" are many, but Bill Evans is and always has been pretty much at the top of that list.
As such, and as a person who's made a living playing whatever genre was required to pay the bills at various times in my life, I've found joy in playing pretty much any style as long as the players are good players (meaning they listen to what's going on around them, they have a good sense of time, and play with the "whole" being much more important than "self) and good people to be with. The rule of thumb is...for it to be a "good gig," you have to have at least two of the following three things... great players, great people, or great pay. You can live with one being missing. Two being missing, and the night is a drag.
Having said that, and not to take you to task for your post, gtrguy, but opening with "I do not like jazz snobs" pretty much invites the reply you got. I am an admitted jazz (and "legit") music "snob," I guess...there simply ARE skills, ears, and knowledge necessary to play those two styles that are not requirements for playing the vast majority of "popular" music. Chord extensions well beyond the seventh or ninth, chord progressions and substitutions far beyond I/VI/ii/V, intricate chromaticisms, constantly varying articulations, timbres, shadings, and dynamics, etc. NOT to say that musicality and musicianship aren't present in good players of every genre... they DEFINITELY are, and I have great respect and admiration for many artists in many styles. To me, however, players like Bill Evans, Scott LaFaro, Marc Johnson, ... a huge list could be made, but I'll stop there just to save space, without even getting to horn players or other great pianists like Wynton Kelly, Hank Jones, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Tommy Flanagan, ... ooops... I didn't stop... ;)
... are the ones that bring me to my knees with awe. Do I admire Vic Wooten? OF COURSE... the guy's incredible. Lots of other guys got me interested in learning to play fretless... Bunny Brunnel, Jaco, Laurie (last name escapes me... beautiful sound...)...
Soo... a long way of saying if someone introduced themselves to me and the first thing they said was they didn't like jazz snobs, I might respond with some of the same statements, I guess, trying to explain why I hold jazz with more esteem personally. The bit about jazz musicians making you feel "insecure" was childing and stupid, granted. FWIW, Coltrane was an INCREDIBLY knowledgeable about music theory... he wasn't JUST "playing what he heard" and enjoying wiggling his fingers. That is true of almost all great jazz players, although there are a few notable exceptions. Bill Evans was at least as knowledgeable, and incredibly articulate about music.
Holding a personally loved style above all others does not denigrate other styles, and should not be seen as any kind of offense or snobbery. We all have styles and genres that speak to us personally for whatever reasons. Personally, I can not STAND loud, aggressive distorted music anymore. There was a time when I was enthralled with McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra, but I can't stand that sound anymore. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the tremendous artistic and skill levels required to create and perform that music... just that it ain't my thing any more.
Maybe I'm not a snob, maybe I am. i don't know. If someone's interested in playing jazz with me and/or learning more about the art form, wonderful. If someone approaches me with the attitude that they'll play jazz with me only if I acknowledged that it takes just as much skill and knowledge to play in a classic rock weekend warrior band, (not that that's exactly what you said, but perhaps they interpreted it that way?), then I may be a bit put off, too, because you'd be wrong.
No offense intended. Just speaking up for us respectful, appreciative jazz snobs... :)
Cheers...
Barry
Edit/ P.S... and, fwiw, that video a couple posts up was HILARIOUS!!! Great stuff. A youtube search for "I Can't Play Piano" and then "Miles Davis Shreds" and "Santana Shreds" will turn up some great bits, too... some more subtle than others... ;)
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I always thought that jazz was a bunch of guys that as long as they were in the same key did whatever they wanted. This coming from a dedicated rocker.
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I always thought that jazz was a bunch of guys that as long as they were in the same key did whatever they wanted. This coming from a dedicated rocker.
Not sure if you're being serious or not.... :).. but if you are..
Here's a great introduction by Dr. Billy Taylor, a phenomenal jazz pianist and also very learned, articulate jazz educator. Those two things don't always go hand in hand, but Billy's performances and clinics are always wonderful...
The opening tune they play is a 12-bar blues. Rather than stick with the standard twelve-bar rock blues progression - basically, four bars of the I chord, then two bars of the IV chord followed by two bars of the I chord again, then ending with one bar of V, one bar of IV, a bar of I, then a V to turn it around to the top (three four bar phrases totalling 12 bars), the group uses a more intricate jazz version of the 12 bar blues, with various chord substitutions throughout that all have equally strong harmonic resolutions and motions, but with a lot more colors to choose from.
Throughout the performance, that 12 bar form never varies. Billy plays the head/melody, then improvises a couple 12 bar choruses, then Chip Jackson (the bass player... great player and great guy... I've had the honor of playing with him on several occasions) takes a chorus or two, then Billy and the drummer trade full 12-bar choruses (count through the drum soli... they are exactly 12 measures long), then they play the head through two choruses (I think.. .going by memory here) and end the tune. It's much more than everyone just doing their own thing.. there's a lot of structure to it.
Always happy to talk about this stuff... forgive me if I'm boring anyone...
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In the words of the immortal Jeff Spicolli in re Mr. Hand - "What a dick!"
I think his response helps us understand that he is intimidated by people who can actually do it. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall hearing a lot about 'Trane's academic background........
Because of Her health issues, the county's Elder Care Services sends the Lovely & Charming Mrs. Cowboy an aide to help around the house; Her current one (well, not after today; she's going back to school; next week) is a music major & an a incredible jazz singer. I read her the Yogi thing, and she was rolling on the floor.
Peter (who is - admittedly not entirely by choice - largely a proponent of cowboy chords)
Peter... I hope things are going well for you and your wife. Not sure what you meant by "those who can actually DO it"... but anyway, here's a nice short biographical synopsis of Coltrane's life if you're interested. Coltrane was one of the most driven, searching, dedicated musicians the world has ever seen.
https://www.johncoltrane.com/biography (https://www.johncoltrane.com/biography)
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Music is the expression of one’s being…All music is to be loved :)
Here are a few more good reads…
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Music is the expression of one’s being…All music is to be loved :)
^^^. That.
<3
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Music is the expression of one’s being…All music is to be loved :)
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This reminds me of a quote from Bill Cosby, many many years ago before the scandals in recent history. It was the only time I ever heard him use an off-color word...
He was describing a conversation he had with someone extolling what they perceived to be the virtues of cocaine. When Cos asked them what they liked about it, they replied that "It makes you like a more intense YOU!" ..
To which Cos replied, "Ok, but what if you're an a$$hole?"
Kind of the same thing with music. There are definitely expressions of some beings in the business who are unworthy of love, at least for the vile violent misogynistic racist vulgar garbage they produce. So, yeah, there's definitely "music" I don't love. Then again....maybe it's not music in the first place. Yeah....that's it....;)....never mind. Not talking about a specific genre...there's good stuff in every genre. Some genres do seem to attract more garbage than others, but tnat's not the genre's fault.
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Peter... I hope things are going well for you and your wife.
As well as can be expected; we are, as they say in our "Golden Years"; my older brother tells me "The only thing golden about them is the stains in our drawers!"
She has had 3 shoulder replacements, has back trouble, is in Stage 3 (moderate - and, thankfully, holding steady thus far) kidney failure, and She has had somewhere in the area of 100 TIAs, which have left Her in the very early stages of Vascular Cognitive Impairment. But She still thinks I'm wonderful (at least a fair percentage of the time.....), so things aren't too bad. And no comments about the VCI leading to the "wonderful", please ::)
As to me, there is a long and probably somewhat tedious thread elsewhere in re my recent physical misadventures, so I won't bore you with all that; I'll just say that today I had surgery for carpal tunnel release & middle finger trigger finger release on my left hand, so....let's just say I won't be sitting up playing all night tonight. Hurts like a....well, it ain't fun. But, at some point in the not-too-distant future I will be able to play all night. The CT had limited me to 10-15 minutes most days for a couple years (the day the doc & I first decided to do it was, as it turned out, the day before all elective surgeries were cancelled....), and with the TF coming along a few weeks ago, it was to the point where I couldn't play at all (kind of hard to keep a rhythm going when your finger locks up then pops loose - quite painfully - as you try to change chords), and if I hadn't had the slicing done I never would have played again - which would have been no loss whatsoever to the world of guitar, I assure you - but disastrous for me.
When asked how I am, my 2 go-to answers are "Upringht and able to take nourishment", and "Older than dirt, but still above it".
lNot sure what you meant by "those who can actually DO it"...
In my experience, a large percentage of those who talk like David's respondent have never played a paying gig in their lives; their "jazz snobbery' is a compensation for their awareness of their various and sundry inadequacies. I have known a fair number of both professional and highly skilled amateur jazz cats; most of them have no such attitude toward other genres, and in fact love both listening to and playing them.
....but anyway, here's a nice short biographical synopsis of Coltrane's life if you're interested. Coltrane was one of the most driven, searching, dedicated musicians the world has ever seen.
https://www.johncoltrane.com/biography (https://www.johncoltrane.com/biography)
Thanks for the link! I will check that out soon (insomnia leaves me glad for anything to do late at night, let alone read about a musical genius). But, while 'Trane was absolutely amazing, and quite knowledgeable, as far as I know he was not, as David's correspondent implied, an academic; I seem to recall that he learned his stuff in a brief stint at community college, a spell in the Navy, and on stages.
As a capper, I will add two things:
First, far too much (not all, not even a lot - just far too much) jazz is just unintelligible; it is the sonic equivalent of Abstract Impressionism - which I strongly suspect was mostly driven by a disdain for "hip, knowledgeable" critics and such: "Let's see how silly we can be before they'll admit they don't get it".
Second, we should consider the possibility that playing less complex forms well enough to make them interesting can be at least as hard as making the more complex forms interesting (which should not be construed as saying I'm abandoning the Dead for Kiss.......)
Peter
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I like jazz. I like playing bass and guitar to jazz. Songs like Giant Steps and Cherokee challenge me on both instruments. I also know what a m7b5 chord is and what scales to use on one, etc. However, I also like playing a tele on a fast country tune and slapping bass on Brick House! I guess I'm just not a purest... I am a snob about good coffee and beer though!
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It’s interesting where these discussions go…it all started with a comical interview with a famous baseball player meant to put a smile on your face…when I read it, I was simply thinking about the Yogi-isms that he was famous for. :)
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I thought your original post was great - a light-hearted take on jazz. I have passed it on to some of my musician friends who thought it was superb. I sort of didn't expect such a detailed analysis of what makes, or doesn't, jazz from subsequent posts but I guess that is what an open forum is about. I just enjoyed the fun side of the quote.
Glynn
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I thought your original post was great - a light-hearted take on jazz. I have passed it on to some of my musician friends who thought it was superb. I sort of didn't expect such a detailed analysis of what makes, or doesn't, jazz from subsequent posts but I guess that is what an open forum is about. I just enjoyed the fun side of the quote.
Glynn
I - and number of players I forwarded it to - also thought it was great. But, given how many things have been falsely attributed to Mark twain, Kurt Vonnegut, Albert Einstein, etc., I do wonder whether this was someone who was familiar with Mr. Berra's unique facility with the language & thought "Wouldn't it be funny if Yogi explained jazz?"
Peter
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I thought your original post was great - a light-hearted take on jazz. I have passed it on to some of my musician friends who thought it was superb. I sort of didn't expect such a detailed analysis of what makes, or doesn't, jazz from subsequent posts but I guess that is what an open forum is about. I just enjoyed the fun side of the quote.
Glynn
I - and number of players I forwarded it to - also thought it was great. But, given how many things have been falsely attributed to Mark twain, Kurt Vonnegut, Albert Einstein, etc., I do wonder whether this was someone who was familiar with Mr. Berra's unique facility with the language & thought "Wouldn't it be funny if Yogi explained jazz?"
Peter
I thought it was great, too, although I'd seen it before elsewhere. Also loved the satirical jazz show video. The digression into other topics, at least from my standpoint, wasn't driven by either post. I do think Peter is correct in that the original post was "in the style of Yogi" rather than actual Yogi.
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Well, I’ve posted this before, but always get a good chuckle from it…also, I play jazz in a local band and absolutely love it, and I’m also a deadhead :)
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Beautiful!
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Leave it to Spinal Tap for the final word on Jazz! 8) ;D
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I play jazz in a local band and absolutely love it, and I’m also a deadhead :)
I don’t find the two all that disparate. I’ve often thought of the Dead trip as a jazz approach using rock ‘n roll tools. And the other day I had Bitches Brew playing on the car CD player (yes, still use CDs and proud of it!) and was thinking how similar parts of it are to Dead space jams. (One wonders, if Miles put out the album today, would the record company balk at the title as not PC?)
Bill, tgo
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I play jazz in a local band and absolutely love it, and I’m also a deadhead :)
I don’t find the two all that disparate. I’ve often thought of the Dead trip as a jazz approach using rock ‘n roll tools. And the other day I had Bitches Brew playing on the car CD player (yes, still use CDs and proud of it!) and was thinking how similar parts of it are to Dead space jams. (One wonders, if Miles put out the album today, would the record company balk at the title as not PC?)
Bill, tgo
I think I've told this before, but I once saw this quote from Mickey Hart: "We use a rock lexicon with a jazz syntax." Pretty much always summed them up for me.
I also wonder if they'd balk at Bitches Brew today - but allow Skullf**k......
If I may veer a bit further afield, the talk of acceptable albums reminds me I saw one of those "Worst Album Covers Ever" clickbait things; there was one that I forget the artist and the title - and I really wish I could forget the cover: A red sports car behind a bodybuilder type in an "I'm a rock'n'roll badass" pose, wearing a blonde hair-metal 'do, tennis shoes, and - um - a state of extreme excitement, if you get my drift. And nothing else. Just Wrong.
Peter
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Bill/Peter, I agree. :)
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I will also mention, completely aside from jazz music - I do likes me them jazz cigarettes.......
Peter
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I will also mention, completely aside from jazz music - I do likes me them jazz cigarettes.......
Peter
I believe Louie Armstrong referred to it as "muggles".
Bill, tgo
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I will also mention, completely aside from jazz music - I do likes me them jazz cigarettes.......
Peter
I believe Louie Armstrong referred to it as "muggles".
Bill, tgo
I've always found it to be more wizardly than muggle-like.
Peter