Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: jazzyvee on August 03, 2020, 11:32:29 AM
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A few weeks into the lockdown I got a call from a reggae band I have worked with in the past to drop some bass on a couple of tracks they were working on.
Anyway a couple of weeks afterwards I got the first of the two tracks which was just drums and guide keyboards. I decided to use my Series I bass as it has the neck pickup closest to the truss rod cavity so is quite a bit heavy on the bottom end.
I had a chat with one of the producers about what kind of tone they wanted and he said both said just leave the controls fully open and we will sort out what we want from that.
I recorded a few basslines with the filters about a third of the way open, because I know how bright a series bass can be, so I could get clarity and heft and sent them the one I thought fitted the track.
Before that I also non-destructively Eq'd the track taking most of the top end out so I had some punch and deep low end and thought, yeah they should be able to work with that and took out all the eq and sent the track.
About a month later they sent me an early mix that had vocals, guitar and brass down on it and the guys from the band said they were really happy with everything.
Then this weekend I got a call from the band leader to tell me that the producer(s) could not get the sound they wanted from the bass track as it had too much top end on it and could I re-record it with less top end.
I'm happy to do it but I want to get it right this time tonally so that they have less work to do on it.
The naughty side of me wants to record via my SF-2 and send off some unearthly hefty bottom end and punch in the track :-) but that might be counter productive the other way.
I think this time round it may be better to try a simpler approach with my standard Europa and switch in the bass boost switch rolling the filter back so that I get the meat and punch but less of the mids.
I'm really looking for advice on what is a good way to record the bass how much to roll off the filter so that they get what they want without taking too much out losing flexibility when mixing.
I would welcome some advice from some seasoned studio players and or producers or anyone really well versed in studio/home studio recordings.
In them meantime I will try to get hold of one of the producers this evening and get a better idea, maybe suggest recording it in their studio.
:D
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Jazzyvee,
That's pretty lame of them, in my opinion. If you got what you thought sounded great with your non-destructive EQ, then why don't you pull up the track you already played, throw that EQ on as thick as you see fit, bounce the resulting sound to another track, and send them the results. You could even send your recorded track out to your SF-2 and back in and record those results. We know there is plenty of bottom end available in the sound if only they would have made the effort to reach for it.
Just my opinion.
Jimmy J
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Sounds to me like the producer may have limited experience with them Olympics. More at home with a P-Bass or maybe even one of those exotic Jazz Basses!
Why not record multiple versions of the same track EQed differently - heck, even do the super low SF-2 version - and let the producer pick his/her favorite. You get to feed your naughty side and still give the producer what he/she is looking for (whatever that is).
Bill, tgo
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I'm with Jimmy. But, I'm surprised and puzzled why the engineer or producer didn't just trim down the highs on their end, as it's so easy to do. I personally just leave the Freq controls wide open with maybe a mid point boost of the Q switch, if at all. I wouldn't record with my Series boosting the Q unless it really had to be done. Did you have your Q switches wide open/boosted when you tracked? If you did maybe it was too much of a lift at your Freq point, and this bugged them. I would track another flat track with nothing boosted or cut and see how you sound before you send out a track.
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I always record with the full range on any bass regardless of brand and then take out or enhance the parts I want during the mix down. While not as deep a bass as reggae I still do some backing track recording for regional traditional gospel acts where treble in a no no. I've never had any complaints from the engineers wanting to rerecord because they couldn't get the tone they are looking for during the mix down. I suspect you are working with one of those "Fender Bass" engineers who is use to the limited tone and where it sets in the mix and is too lazy to figure out how to handle your Alembic. I'm with Jimmy that you should just go ahead and handle the post production on your existing track and send them a couple of variations for them to choose from.
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I've been down the road with the P Bass crowd once or twice. That's why I keep one around. For my own music I use whatever I want, but for others music I give them what they are used to.
I have a great Fender P Bass Deluxe that I know sounds good, but even that bass, because it has 2 pickups and is active, can make them uneasy.
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Flat wounds can help, too. Even better, tape wounds. Although it's a drag to change strings just for one song.
And for those times I really just need it sound like a fender, I've got old flats on a reasonably good squier that i only ever bring out for those occasions.
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All good points, the updated track has not got to me yet but when it does i will check back the thread before recording.
Maybe about 6 years not long after rejoining musical youth, as a bass player this time round, we did a benefit gig at a large theatre at a local music college where the band's sound engineer also worked. He did the FOH and live recording. One of the tracks , i shot the sheriff, ended up on the last album and interestingly my track for various readons was the only one that did not have to be re-recorded. So clearly the engineer was able to get the right sound down on the recording for a reggae track so yes it can be done. (I used my all maple europa for that gig which is a really bright bass even with the filters closed). I have some labella deep talking tape wound flats that i didn't like the sound of on that bass so they are now on my acoustic bass. Not sure if they are long enough now but maybe this application is where they could come into their own. if i get time i will do some experimenting using my live rack and take the dI feed from my F1-x and not off the Ds-5 directly into my audio interface. Maybe that will also warm the sound in a more appropirate way. It's a learning curve and im confident things will work out. Keep the good suggestions coming.
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It can be done all right, but many engineers or producers get into the mode of 'let's do what we are used to and worry about other things in the studio besides the bass'.
I understand why, but I think a truly good engineer can quickly get a non-familiar bass like an Alembic to sound good pretty fast.
I also carry a small block of packing foam that fits under my bass strings with me. I shove it in there to get more of a flat wound sound.
Back in the 80's I was hired to come in and play bass on a country 33 1/3 record. I brought the pretty new BC Rich Mockingbird that I used to have, which I knew was a great sounding bass.
The engineer saw it and gave me the stink eye. He than went on to insist I put it on the bridge pickup, which I knew would not sound good. I did what he wanted and it did not sound good.
I was then taken aside and fired. Then they got a player with a P bass in and all was good. What is funny is later on that year a friend with a recording studio had me come in and use that same bass to put down a track on a reggae style song he wrote called, "The Molokai Slide", which went on to become a #1 hit in Hawaii through a strange set of circumstances. That song literally forged a new style of music for Hawaii. He had no problem getting a great tone from my bass. What is really funny is that 9 months later the same engineer was up for getting hired to make a full record for a group I was in, and I was only too glad to veto that choice.
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... the producer(s) could not get the sound they wanted from the bass track as it had too much top end on it and could I re-record it with less top end.
Sorry but this is the BS part of the request. That's why I think you should use the track you've already played (and the band confirms that they dig) and just tweak the tone the way you think it should be with some EQ, maybe a touch of compression, hell maybe even a bit of reverb (probably not). Get it to sound awesome with their demo and then route your tweaked bass track to a new track and record the results. Then send them that "all new and improved" version with a short "how about this?" message. Unless the arrangement has changed or they're asking you to play some other notes there's simply no reason for you to replay it. Because I'm sure you played all the right notes in just the right places!
It's true, I may be getting grumpier and less accommodating in my old age... And really, people know that I don't own any Fender basses so if they really think they need that sound from me ... they have to rent one for me to play. (That has happened...) But c'mon, replay the track because there's too much treble? Sheesh.
Jimmy J
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Hey, just tell them you re-did it with a P bass and send the same thing back and they will probably like it!
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Can't you just run the original track through your SF-2 with the low-pass filter set where you think it sounds good? I personally like to record my bass the way I want it to sound.
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I think what's going on has less to do with EQ and more to do with the liveliness of an Alembic, especially the aspects due to it being a neck through with a stiff neck and the wonderful brass hardware we know and love. I had this same problem with recording engineers even if they don't know why they don't like my tracks, blaming it on my playing rather than admitting that they didn't know what to do with the sound. I'd play a part with my Alembic. "No, you're not sitting in the pocket right." I'd play it with my Starfire with Alembic guts. Same problem. Play exactly the same part with a Jazz bass. "You nailed it!"
It's that Alembics are too "boingy" for lack of a better word. Too alive. It's worth having a Fender around just for these kinds of moments.
Confession: I sold all my Fender style basses. If they don't like my tone or the way I play, they can find another bassist, which is fine with me.
Good luck!
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Hey Edwin, thanks for contributing to the thread. Whilst I'm quite irritated by the whole thing, I see it as an opportunity to understand the best way to record bass with these instruments, so buying another bass is not an option and it wouldn't help me get to the crux of the matter. For all I know they may not like the way I played the part and talking about tone and re-recording is another way of making that point. That, I have less of an issue with especially if people are honest about it and can articulate what it is they want musically. I will try to contact the main producer who is putting the tracks together and that may clarify things.
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It can be done all right, but many engineers or producers get into the mode of 'let's do what we are used to and worry about other things in the studio besides the bass'. I understand why, but I think a truly good engineer can quickly get a non-familiar bass like an Alembic to sound good pretty fast.
This ^^^
Hey, just tell them you re-did it with a P bass and send the same thing back and they will probably like it!
And this ^^^ ;D ;D
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I had a similar experience a few years ago. I don’t normally play my Series basses with both filters wide open, but when I asked the engineer if I should send him the time I usually use or run both filters wide open he told me that he preferred to use EQ to subtract and to run everything wide open. I’m sure as hell no Jimmy Johnson so I did what I was told. Of course, after tracking he complained that my sound was “too bright.”
I later realized that his “tone wide open” preference was borne of the laziness of routine: he was use to the tone of a P or J wide open, and he didn’t want to work. But the real mistake was mine. I don’t have the proficiency to be a studio chameleon. I can only be me, for good or ill. I shouldn’t have asked what he wanted - I should have given him my tone. In the end, my tone and feel are all I can give to the track, and if it isn’t good enough... well, what Edwin said...
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I had a session at home recording the track last night and didn't use a series bass this time I used my main reggae bass, the all maple bodied Europa with Signature electronics. I had both filters closed, no Q and only the neck pickup. I have an analogue desk so I used my radial DI and sent the output from the bass into that, and used the thru jack to feed into my S-F2 in mono mode and sent that output signal to another track on the mixer and then into my audio interface onto two tracks on Logic.
It sounded fine to me with both signals recorded. I had a tinker with the EQ on the DI'd track whilst keeping the S-F2 track as recorded and was able to find a good punch point at least on my home setup I can find a sound that I think represents me. I will do a couple more versions tonight and send them off to the producer. I will try using the second channel of my DI to take the S-F2 output to the desk and see how that comes out.
Before I started I called the band leader to find out what he wants, and what he wants is a really simple bassline and leave any extra's fills etc to the end of the track after the vocals finish the main chorus and the singing is more ad-libbed.
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I don't know about you guys but when I close the filters down on any of my alembics there is still quite a lot of the higher frequencies in the output which is usually fine by me as I like that clarity. However live for reggae I always have to eq that part of the signal out but I never take too much out as trying to pitch properly when you have a lot of bottom end on stage can be a challenge, especially when wearing ear plugs or playing a dep gig with tracks I'm not so familiar with and need the sound of the notes I'm playing. With my main band that isn't so much of an issue as I know the stuff well.
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With the filter on the bridge pickup closed about halfway, I can get pronounced brightness through a major boost to the Q. This even with flats, and with the neck filter way (way!) closed. .
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I have been using a plugin on my computer for a while called Waves Vitamin Sonic enhancer that I find gives me amazing control over frequencies of the instruments I record. The built in presets almost always work for me and the plug in is pretty amazing at doing selective eq tweaks, both enhancing or removing certain frequencies.
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Hey Edwin, thanks for contributing to the thread. Whilst I'm quite irritated by the whole thing, I see it as an opportunity to understand the best way to record bass with these instruments, so buying another bass is not an option and it wouldn't help me get to the crux of the matter. For all I know they may not like the way I played the part and talking about tone and re-recording is another way of making that point. That, I have less of an issue with especially if people are honest about it and can articulate what it is they want musically. I will try to contact the main producer who is putting the tracks together and that may clarify things.
I think you are taking the right approach! Another thing you might try doing is the foam under the strings down by the bridge trick. It damps the overtones and gives an envelope of each note that engineers seem to be more used to.
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Thanks, i tried the string damping a couple of times when on stage with Musical Youth. once with a sponge and another with a black scrunchie threaded between the strings by the bridge and whilst it did control the envelope we all felt it was cutting off the notes too quick. If i do something radically different with my sound on stage or have decided to make a noticeable change to the basslines i always let them know and play it at soundcheck as it can be offputting in music with a regular repeating bassline.
i need to call the producer today again for feedback and if i have to rerecord i will do the damping
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Well, I had a text back from the band leader today, saying the bass is all good. They were going to be mixing today so that's good news.
I'm not sure which of the two versions of the bass they chose to use but they were effectively getting from me the sound I use on stage from which is DI from the bass and since I did not use a cab, they got the direct sound from my SF-2. I hope I get to hear the track and check how they decided to mix the bass. Then at least I will know what to give if I need to record a reggae bass line at home in the future. For my own stuff I doubt if I would record with the SF-2 and would probably re-amp through that instead.
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That's good news Jazzyvee. You certainly went out of your way to accommodate them so I hope they appreciate your efforts and keep the bass LOUD in the mix. Perhaps it will lead to more projects for the band, the producers, and/or the engineers. "Call that guy with the massive tone!"
Jimmy J
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Thanks Jimmy, I really appreciate you taking the time to share you experience. Studio work has been a significantly small part of my musical life, so whenever i do it, it always takes me out of my comfort Zone, especially when a client can’t communicate what they want and then doesn’t like your interpretation of what they asked for. But I guess that is just how it is sometimes. It’s another lesson learnt that will be added to my experience. Hopefully it gets easier.
Take care and i hope we are all back in the saddle of normality making live and recorded music as soon as it is safe to to do so.
One last thing if i may. 😂😎
Without naming names can you recall any uncomfortable sessions that took you out of your comfort zone and as a rough guide, what percentage of your studio sessions do you ever get to hear the finished product?
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odd, I thought I'd posted this already - if it shows up twice I'm sorry...
Jazzyvee,
I think all recording situations are uncomfortable simply because of the nature of what it is. Although I was never a "mainstream" studio guy I did do a fair amount of that work back in the day. And when that was happening it helped me gain confidence and lowered the stress level. I always enjoyed the camaraderie and amazing skills of the musicians I got to work with, and even the reading gigs didn't worry me too much when I was doing more of that... But that first session after being on the road or not recording for a while was tricky for me and tripped me up a couple times.
There's an interesting psychology involved in recording work. I am NOT a good salesman, particularly when trying to sell myself. Some guys are amazing at self-promotion but that was never one of my skills. But in a recording situation you need to be confident in what you're doing so that the Artist and Producer know they've hired the right person. You are NOT the only one at the session who is nervous! In fact, the Artist should be having the time of their lives so it's very important to support that feeling and exude confidence in the music and everybody's part in it - including yours. That's no place for you to voice doubtfulness or otherwise dampen the mood, you gotta be positive and supportive.
Obviously you have to PLAY great and do everything you can to make the music great, but the psychological support and good vibes role is nearly as important.
Not sure if I've explained that very well, but it's the reason that I encouraged you in this thread to confidently deliver your track and let them know that "THIS IS THE ONE".
As to your other question, depending on how involved I am with the project I'll most often end up buying the album from iTunes. Even if the Artist offers to send one I'll do that to support the team (and they love that response).
Anyway, glad that all worked out for you. I hope the band, producers, and engineers all call you for more. "Get that guy with the HUGE tone!"
Jimmy J
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I have found that in long recording sessions I have three zones. The first one is where I am somewhat excited in a new environment and therefore my timing is sloppy and I don't play my best. Then that shifts into the zone where I am comfortable in the environment and with the people around me, and maybe even start to get a little bored. That is where I do my best work. Finally there comes that 3rd time zone where I lose the edge, get tired, etc. That is where it is often so tempting to think I'll nail it on the next try if I just focus a little more, etc. That is where I really need to stop, if at all possible. Usually what takes a long time to get right at that point can be accomplished in a short time the next day. And even if I do suck it up and put something down that's OK, as often as not I can come up with something way better the next day anyway.
Of course in my home studio I am always comfortable!
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Yes David, I am also comfortable working at home and quite enjoy the process. I'll spend many more hours assembling a track here than I would have in a studio, but that's ok with me. And as you say, the best results are when you give it a listen the following day. ;)
My stories above mostly refer to live studio dates with other players, a rare occurrence these days. (Well, a non-occurrence at this very point in time.) I love working on tracks for people at home and these file-exchange style projects have been keeping me sane through the Big Pause.
Where the psychology comes in here is - what to charge?? Ha! Somewhere between nothing and a whole lot I guess.
Jimmy J
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Jimmy, your wisdom is always so much appreciated on here!