Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: edwardofhuncote on June 24, 2020, 10:55:43 AM
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The Hyak Has Landed!
So this one bounced around the internet for a while, we even discussed it here a couple times in the Swap Shop. It surfaced on Craigslist, then disappeared again. Then Reverb. Poof, gone. Finally, this Hyak turned up in the TalkBass Classifieds, ironically with a member I had done a swap-deal with several years ago. He had tried fretless with it, and was giving up. I exchanged several messages, got some detailed pictures, worked out what I thought was fair for a bass that was playable but needed, and really deserved a proper restoration. About the price of a nice imported Fender, if you're curious. I had to save it.
I knew just from hanging around here exactly what this bass was, and generally what to expect... I've read every thread from Michael Delacerda and Eiji-san, even a couple threads where Mica's crew restored a Hyak or two. Hyak instruments' build quality is quite similar to their Alembic cousins, but the electronics are problematic for most shops unfamiliar with them to work on, and the necks depended upon graphite laminates for reinforcement, which often just wasn't enough.
My new-to-me Hyak fretless suffers from both of the common symptoms... even with six graphite layers the neck has too much relief, no way to adjust it any lower, and all that remains of the original electronics are the pickups. Maybe the best news is, those pickups are dead-quiet... no hum, buzz, squeal or crackle whatsoever. They are wired simply to a pair of passive treble roll-off pots, and a 3-position selector switch, and a 1/4" mono jack. Perfectly functional as-is, if a bit anemic without an active preamp to drive things. The socket for the 5-pin is there, but the jack itself, long gone. The action is higher than I like it in the center of the scale, but passable. With a new set of 364 T-I Jazz Flats, it plays... okay.
In the long-term, it's going to be a restoration project. I was thinking this bass was in much worse condition when I bought it than it turned out to be. It was filthy. I spent two night scrubbing and cleaning, then polishing up the metal parts, and when I got through, well... by golly, it didn't look too bad! I have now ruled out refinishing it. I think it would actually be kinda' disrespectful to remove the honest playing wear it has, and the few other bruises and knocks it has just add character. I'm going to address the playability issues first. We'll remove the fingerboard, flatten the neck beam with moist heat, and install an adjustable truss rod. Then it'll get a new fingerboard, probably fretted and with abalone inlay. This truss rod installation will be a little tricky, as the neck pickup is right up against the end of the fingerboard. I'm working on a plan so that the adjustment is easily accessible. Eventually it'll get some new electronics too. I definitely want to keep those original pickups if at all possible, so that'll weigh a lot on what goes in.
It's partly a Showcase for a non-Alembic bass, that I may eventually bring this back as a Shop Thread, but I thought you guys might like a look at my latest rescue. Enjoy the pictures.
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Couple more details...
Any guesses on the woods appreciated. I'm thinking the core is mahogany, and the top and back are most likely walnut. The light wood in the neck is probably maple, maybe beech, center stringer looks like purpleheart maybe. Not sure on the drark brown stringers.
Check out those position dots though... pretty snazzy! ;D
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Greg,
Cool bass. Unique.
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I have talked with the seller of this bass before too. If he would have sent me some detailed pics like that, I would probably own it! All of the pictures posted of that bass were taken with a potato.
Really looks nice! So are those side LED's that no longer work? Something else? I find that electronics get removed out of those instruments because they just stop working. There are these green and tan tantalum capacitors that go bad on all 3 circuit boards. Yes there is a separate circuit board for each pickup, then there is a board called a summer board that combines the signal. Really strange and the whole mess runs on 36 volts. My local tech says he can re-create all of that if you're interested.
But I suggest leaving it as is and just fixing the playability of the instrument. Good on ya to fit a truss rod. I have thought of that too, but it would be nothing I could do myself. Since the pickup is right against the fingerboard, I thought of notching the fingerboard in the middle and losing a fret on the D and A strings. Just a thought. I have no issues when I use TI light gauge power bass round wounds. When I use the TI Jazz flats, it is just too much tension!
Glad you posted a pic of the serial number. I like that kinda stuff. Not that the serial number was sequential in any way. Supposedly it was the date made. But then a different owner took over and I understand a different numbering scheme was then used. My serial number is stamped inside the control cavity, battery cavity and on the inside of the wood control cover plate.
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I find it strange that bass does not have a logo either! Maybe it was ordered that way.
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Greg, I recently met Brian Smith, Mr. Hyak Guitars. He looked at my Hyak guitar on which the fretboard has become partially detached. He told me that, due to the graphite, one must use epoxy to glue the fretboard back onto the neck. Since you are planning to remove the fretboard, I thought I would pass on this bit of information from the man himself.
Bill, tgo
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So are those side LED's that no longer work?
That's my question too, sure looks like it.
How will that affect the fingerboard removal?
Does Epoxy melt?
(I guess I have a few questions ;) )
My vote is black walnut for the stringers.
Elwood
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Man...CONGRATS, Greg!! That's an amazing looking instrument. (And it'll only look better from here on out!)
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Looks nice. I'm thinking the dark stringers might be Walnut. Mahogany, Birch and Walnut would have been a fairly common in a neck recipe in that era. The center stringer is likely Purpleheart but from the picture could be well aged Vermilion.
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Sweet.
From the pix, the neck looks to me like mahogany, ebony, walnut, ebony, birch, ebony, purpleheart, and then, of course, the same on the way back out. [edit: But, as Keith posted while I was typing, vermillon is possible for the center]
On the truss rod, would it be feasible to make the new 'board a tad shorter? (I'm assuming a 'grasser doesn't play much that far up......)
Peter
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Since you are removing the fretboard you should be able to determine the center stringer buy giving it a light sanding to remove the oxidation and reveal its original color.
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What you guys are seeing in the neck is not ebony. That is the graphite stiffeners.
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What you guys are seeing in the neck is not ebony. That is the graphite stiffeners.
Aaahhhh! I see; thanks, Michael. BTW, any word on how the Karina restoration is coming?
Peter
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That will be a fun project! If that bass had been local, I think I would have bought it too.
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Thanks for all the responses fellas. :)
Dela, I was hoping you would see the thread and chime in with some thoughts. I'll email you some further developments as I find them. I do believe those were LED's. The wire to them ran under the E-string side of the fingerboard through an epoxy-filled, I'll call it a channel. I didn't realize what this was. Ha! Yeah, those serial numbers are pretty cool. Mine was inside the battery compartment, and there may be another inside the control cavity or underneath a pickup too, but I haven't investigated further yet. So #780502 likely refers to May 2nd, 1978... how interesting. The missing logo is totally a mystery. There doesn't appear to have ever been one. But there isn't much question about the authenticity of this one either. Maybe it was a blem or a second. Maybe it was an unfinished one that was among the stock reportedly sold to the music store when Hyak closed up shop. I would love to know. I had thought about various ways to tastefully reproduce it for restorations' sake, or maybe we just accept that it came without a logo and let it be. It's within my capabilities to do something pretty darn close, and it isn't beneath me to enlist professional help fitting it with a proper logo either.
Bill, I knew you had a Hyak guitar at one point but hadn't seen you post about it recently. How cool that you got to meet the man, himself! I was actually wondering about how to save that original fingerboard given the discovery of those LED's, but if you notice, there is a very thin 'sacrificial' layer of maple under the ebony, which we hope will help with the removal. It's a pretty long shot those old things still work anyway. Thanks for the excellent tip though... I expect we will replace the sacrificial laminate and glue it with epoxy. The fingerboard should adhere to that with conventional Titebond just fine.
In this thread, you can see the ingenious approach the Alembic Shop took to a truss rod installation in a Hyak bass. http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=7303.msg80945#msg80945 (http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=7303.msg80945#msg80945) We may try something similar. My takeaway from that beautiful job was that routing the channel through the scarf joint so the adjustment could be made from the headstock just behind the nut, was not a good idea.
Lots of time to figure out where to go with this project. Thanks everyone for the input.
Jury is still out on wood. The finish, whatever was used, has certainly darkened the hues. I agree, vermilion is definitely possible as an alternate for the purpleheart center laminate. Or it could be purpleheart and the two browner ones, vermilion. I'm back and forth on the light wood, leaning towards maple. I'm not even sure the body core and neck are mahogany anymore. I dunno. Probably, maybe. ::)
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Here is a closeup of the logo. Personally I would just leave it like it is. The logo is brass, and is under the finish. It looks like there is some relief with a black painted background. Excuse the chips and such. Thanks. Michael
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Thanks Michael! Yessir, I have studied a couple of these logos, and couldn't quite see how they were wrought. They do appear somewhat identical, which makes me think he had them made somehow that was a machine-able replicating process. Whatever I did would be a one-off inlay, into an ebony medallion of sorts, inlaid into the headstock, of course at the very least a careful finish touch-up or overspray of the headstock face would be required. All of which is do-able. The facing veneer is attractive enough as-is, so as an alternate plan, maybe some kind of fingerboard inlay that evokes his logo? I dunno.... plenty of time to mull it over.
I picked up the Hyak for a few thoughtful moments last night, and to my joy, after a week of humidifying it and lower tension strings, by golly, that action is getting a little bit better! It is a measureable difference. I picked up the string pack and looked, and sure enough, T-I JF 364's are smaller gauged than 344's, because they assume you're putting them on a 36" scale bass. I just needed the extra length for that long pull behind the bridge.
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Wow - very cool acquisition and project! That headstock design - whew...
Actually, the headstock is cool, it's the tuner placement that throws it off. I know I should do a search, but, do all Hyak headstocks look like that? Maybe he was experimenting with tuner placement and there didn't end up being room for the logo?
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Very pretty, that instrument is in good hands and will be rewarded!
I kinda am digging the head stock and the tuners... just weird enough for me! :o
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Beautiful bass. When you get it fixed up you’ll one one very nice addition to your tool kit. Seeing how much you like the scroll makes me glad I snatched up the shop night special with a scroll or that might have been yours.
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On the subject of scrolls; if you look at the few of these out there, every one is different... that's one of the hyper-cool things about scrollwork. It's very much like an artist's signature. Look at the scroll on Nick's vermilion Hyak and mine, totally different. Robert's scrolled purpleheart Hyak is closer to mine. I love those little differences.
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I have seen 2 different shapes of headstocks on Hyak instruments. One has more pronounced "points" on either side of the logo, and one more smoothed out. All the instruments have the tuning keys on an angle like that. I have seen 2 types of tuning keys used too. The sealed Schallers like we have on our Alembics, and the ones with the open gears. Mine has the open gears too. Mine was the first one I saw with the open gears. I thought it was a modification at first, but now I have seen others.
All of those instruments are quite odd in their own way. Fretless must have been common. I've run across 4 including this one.
Still searching for the elusive non-scroll Hyak bass in short or medium scale. Probably does not exist.
Michael
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the logo is likely cast brass with paint or enamel...there is stuff out there that dissolves epoxy; there's one for jewellers called ATTACK and it lives up to it's name. If you get a whiff of the vapours you will see BLACK STARS, likely your brain cells winking out of existence...
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This will make for a great project. If you decide to make this a shop thread, I'll be following in interest.
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Been spending some quality time with the Hyak. I think it's done all the moving it's going to be doing until we forcibly flatten the neck beam out. It's playable, but just. The really floppy T-I Jazz Flats and some saturation humidifying brought the action down enough to get some temporary enjoyment. And my, what a joy this bass is... the trick was to boost the signal up. Those original octagonal pickups (as I understand it from reading up here) were looking for a 36v feed, either from four 9v batteries or an outboard power supply not unlike our DS--5. I am a complete electrical Dunce, so part of this project for me is (hopefully) picking up some basic understanding of how the electronic components work, and why they do what they do.
Anyway, the output of the Hyak with just the passive circuit currently installed is so low, that I have to really crank the input gain on my F-1X beyond where I typically set it. So, I thought about it a few minutes. I almost always play active basses. Even the ones I have that are not active, say my old '67 Guild Starfire, have a much higher output than this poor thing does. They sound good... nice and clean, just... no power. So, what if I simply put another preamp before the F-1X... (?) not to overdrive it, but just to boost that anemic voice up a little. Extra gain stage. Worth a shot.
BINGO. I had a little el-cheap-o voiced tube mic preamp in with my PA stuff that did exactly the trick. Only other thing in the chain here is a tuner, and my MXR Stereo Chorus. From there, to input 2, on the F-1X. (my SF-2 is in the effects loop of it)
Here's a tune I've been messing with.
*as an aside, two very different basses, with a few things in common. Definitely some shared DNA here.
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Good call on the boost.
Wow...hearing it after just seeing pics is a real treat.
You make it look easy to play, it's going to play you once you get
the neck flatter.
Joy ;D
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Most excellent!
Peter
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I have a full and complete set of Hyak bass electronics. I think this is your lucky day Nickmiesle@gmail.com.
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Nice looking bass you got there, Greg!
And always good to see you drop by, Nick.
Bill, tgo
Bill, tgo
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Thanks Coz & Bill. :)
Great to see you too, Nick - I'd been hoping you'd drop in on the thread sometime. Pretty sure I still have your email addy squirrelled away, but I scribbled it down just in case. (you might want to scrub it offa' the public view here though... we still get a few n'er-do-well bots sneaking past) I'll drop you a line when I have a few minutes, as I have been wondering what to do about the electronics in this bass. One obvious solution would be to fit it with either Signature or Anniversary controls like yours, but not knowing whether I'd be able to use the old pickups or not, I hadn't really spent much thought on that path yet. There are other commercially available options, but I'd like to stay as true to the original design as possible. Definitely filters.
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I had a feeling this bass would get to you, ED. Definitely hit me up. You should have these electronics so you're can be original they were removed by Alembic and are in perfect condition. I'm curious how much you paid for it? I hope I'm not being rude.I tried to get it but the guy was asking way too much. I even tried to just get the pickups.
Nick
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I finally watched the video - sounds great! Looks great too - the headstock is growing on me, especially seeing it in a playing situation.
By the way, did you have some kind of trippy visual effect going on? When I watched it in YouTube and put it on full-screen I started seeing strange movement - or maybe I just got on The Wheel...
Oh yeah, wanted to say, I like the way you pluck with your right hand - I've been going for that for a few years now, inspired by Stanley Clarke and Bootsy Collins...
One more thing - what are the side markers like? Dots on the fret (3,5,7,etc.)?
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Thanks Harry. :)
The trippy visual effects are just one of about a dozen available for free use when uploading a video to my fledgling channel. That one is called "Dream" or something. I dunno... it kinda' fits the psychedelic theme.
I promise, anything you see me do on the fretless has a 95% probability of being carried over from playing upright bass. Particularly so with the right hand. I was telling Dave a little while back, in the gig-less situation most of us are in, I needed a fence to swing for; a reason to practice. Playing in front of the camera has been an eye-opener in several ways. I've heard myself recorded for years, but very seldom gotten to see myself play, or even seen pictures. It's all new to me, seeing that, and it has changed my perception.
The Hyak we believe had LED's... at the usual intervals, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. Incidentally, they are situated on the fret, rather than between them, thus more-or-less proving this was a factory fretless. They don't work anymore, but still look cool. I will most likely convert this bass to a fretted one after the neck is straightened and reinforced. If I can figure out how to do it, the LED's will be incorporated into the new fingerboard.
The headstock... the more you look at it, the more you realize it looks like it needs to for this design. I think it looks like an Alembic "Fan" pattern that got slightly melted. ;D
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Ed,
I am glad you are getting those electronics from Nick. That bass really needs them! As I think I mentioned before, I have a local guy that can actually replicate all of those electronic cards if you need it. He completely rebuilt mine.
Nice to see the bass in action!
Michael
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I just got off the phone with Nick, had a great conversation, and sure enough, he had a full, new old stock, basically unused set of Hyak electronics for a bass. So that issue is resolved; they'll be going into #780502. Man, talk about finding a horn for a Unicorn... where else but this place?! ::)
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Nick is a great person!
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Thanks guys! I'm still around. Just building instruments and tables instead of playing. You do what you can during the zombie apocalypse
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Not my bass and you 're the only one who knows your needs, but what a nice fretless, Greg! Thanks for sharing your video, it ia always great to hear you.
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Thread Update- the new old stock Hyak Electronics arrived today. Of course they will be a drop-in fit to my bass, as they came from an almost identical twin. Fascinating to look at the precision work in these little boards and harnesses. I will need to source the right connectors for my pickups to connect to these plugs. (I'm assuming red is bridge and blue is neck... I think it's like this on a Series bass) And I guess a new 5-pin jack and mounting plate are in order.
Thanks a million, Nick. ;)
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Sweet bass!
My guess on the woods - I think the top and back are shedua (popular on exotics back in those days, not commonly seen anymore). Not sure about the core although the grain is pretty distinct for mahogany. The light stringers in the neck are probably maple, the center is purpleheart, and the dark woods are two different kinds of bubinga (mentally overlay a Warwick Thumb over the center strip in the body).
If it were an Alembic of this age, an LED side marker would just be the LED. Nowadays, it's more of a construction like this with the LED in a sterling silver piece which makes it possible to see the markers when the LEDs are off. The way Alembic does the LED is that they route a channel along the edge of the fingerboard, and place the LEDs in a thin strip that fits into that channel. The wiring runs behind the strip that's glued into place. And then nobody will do a fret job for you because it might upset the LED strip. Are all your markers like this? If so, this was done differently than Alembics of the time, as the channel and strip don't seem visible.
The woods in the neck expand and contract with humidity and temperature changes. The graphite doesn't move so you need to epoxy them together so the don't split apart in a temp change. That's necessary on the faces of the graphite laminates, but I don't think it really matters on those small edges as much. Hopefully this was assembled with regular Titebond or the like. I don't think you need to epoxy the fingerboard to the neck. If it is epoxied on, then nothing will separate it. The maple layer between the neck and fingerboard is sort of a sacrificial layer so you could conceivably reuse the fingerboard after taking the neck apart.
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Since you shared this Hyak with graphite laminates, I'll share a few photos of one of it's cousins. This is a Moonstone Eclipse Deluxe which has thicker graphite stiffeners in the neck and between the neck centerpiece and the body wings. Definitely a similar kind of vibe, although with much more pedestrian Bartolini electronics and a Badass bridge. This is a fretted that was converted to fretless. Moonstones are famous for the crazy figured woods. I met Steve Helgeson, the man behind Moonstone at a NAMM show years ago, and the graphite laminates were from Modulus. There were a few Moonstone guitars with Modulus graphite necks and Modulus had a few instruments with bodies by Moonstone.
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Thanks for posting David, glad to see you on the thread, yours being a well-known voice of experience here. We haven't corresponded, (me being fairly new) but I have read a good many of your posts here. That Moonstone is nice!
Schedua is a very good guess on the top/back. I hadn't considered that, but you're absolutely right... 1978 was about the primetime for that wood choice. On the LED's, yes... all are the same; red, and encircled by silver ringlets. I'm not certain they were LED's, but we think so. Look at the end of the fingerboard under the E-string, and you'll see an odd route, that must have been there for the wires. They are not connected to anything anymore, so no way to know if they still work. Wouldn't it be cool if they did!? They will most likely be destroyed by the fingerboard removal, but we can replace them. I may need some help figuring out how to wire them to the circuit. All in good time.
I'll admit to being kinda' torn Mario. On the one hand, you're right, it is a wonderful fretless. On the other hand, I have a few wonderful fretlesses, two of them are Alembics. This bass is already a wrestling match with gravity with the small body and long scale. I am about as fond of doing fretwork as I am having dental work done, so I may change my mind and leave it slick. We'll see! ;)
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If you find any of those original Molex pickup connecters please let me know. I have contacted Mica several times looking for them, but then I don't hear back. I know they took a special tool to crimp, too.
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Not much of a thread update, but I finally found a hardshell case to fit the Hyak. Should be here today. (might actually be on my porch now, but I can't see it from waaaay down here) I haven't had any time at all to work on it, or even play it, but that day will come. Anyway, yeah... 48" x 14" inside dim. cases that are deep enough for an angled headstock are not easy to find. I got a pretty good buy on an Epiphone T-Bird case (by Gator cases) that should do nicely!
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Not the toughest hardshell case ever made, no, but definitely an upgrade from what I got it it in, or had already available. Decent handle carry and hardware. Four latches. Big compartment holds the extra-thick GruvGear SoloStrap and more junk. Most importantly... It Fit the Hyak Scroll-body! ;D
It's tight, but workable. There's a good 3/4" to spare beyond the headstock and the body is well-cushioned. I think the foam will eventually mold itself to the shape. Lid closes fine, no mods necessary. The Hyak has a safe resting place now. 8)
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:D
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Looks like it won't be moving around.
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Just a little thread update on the Hyak... been a good while now.
I haven't been in my shop in ages it seems like, but there was a gig coming up I wanted to play it on, and on the punchlist of things to fix was a series of scars in the outer layer of the treble side of the neck beam, up in the first position. They were just deep enough to be annoying when played over. They would still show, but at least they wouldn't be as much of a distraction if they were filled in and flushed up. And this bass... it's a warhorse... I just don't much care how it looks if I can get the playability issues squared away. These little divots were bugging me. Had to do a fix.
I made some dust on the belt sander with a scrap chunk of mahogany, and collected it in a discarded string pack, (I save these, habitually) then carefully drop-filled the divots with CA glue and packed the wood dust into the glue, then cured it with a quick shot of accelerant. Some careful filing and a wet sand, followed by a little finish touch-up and buff-out, and it's pretty slick to the touch. If I were going to do a refinish on this bass, I would inlay pieces of wood here. They'd be seen, but not easily noticed, if carefully matched. And that's still a possibility. I'm just not there yet... I kinda' like the rough aesthetic. This Hyak has been there and done that.
While I was at it, I filed the nut slots deeper... all the way to within a couple thousandths of the fingerboard. There's enough relief to the neck that it works out with the geometry. This bass is just barely playable like it is, no more adjustment at the bridge, of course no truss rods to decrease relief, but I still have plans to go all the way with the repairs. I have dreamed up ways of adding neck reinforcement to bolster the existing graphite laminates in between them. Even a plan to wedge in some draft angle under the fingerboard to get the bridge up off the deck. Just... need some time.
I am starting to question whether I want it fretted though. It is so incredibly good as a fretless, that I hate to mess with that. I played it for 2-1/2 hours last night. Had a ball.
Pics of the work. *Maybe some video from the gig later. We were rusty, hadn't played in a couple years.
*Like I said... rustiness disclaimer: This is one of my go-to tunes. It's a Gillian Welch piece, that I learned from my friends Kenny and Amanda Smith, many, many years ago. Brian and I worked out the intro for giggles one time, and the tune found its way into the set. You can really hear how articulate the Hyak is here. I can't help but wonder if Mr. Smith ever imagined one of his basses would someday wind up in an Appalachian string band?
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Really excellent work!
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Nice work!
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oh yeah!
Love the repurposing of string package material!!!
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I like listening to that!
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Here is my Hyak:
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Ah yes, I remember seeing that birdseye maple one for sale a while back. That's nice! Thanks for posting. :)
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I will have to dig up some old pictures. I think I used to own that one.