Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: kilowatt on April 26, 2020, 02:00:44 PM
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I had some time, so I pulled out my old Bag End 2x12 cabinet loaded with JBL E120's. 13 Ply Birch, stained cabinet, in excellent shape. It's a sealed cabinet with a single banana jack connector. The E120's sound a little thin to me, so I am contemplating replacing the drivers. I would be using the cabinet for strictly bass. Thoughts?
Regards,
Pete
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If you are looking for replacement speakers and not a full cab, how about Tone Tubby?
https://www.tonetubby.com/product-category/bass-speakers/
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Speakers are so subjective and personal that's it's hard to make suggestions. Are you sure those JBLs working properly? Are the cones moving freely? I suppose traditionally for bass they would have been K120s instead of the E120s. There are a couple K120s for sale on reverb but they're not cheep.
For alternatives, look here:
https://usspeaker.com/homepage.htm (https://usspeaker.com/homepage.htm)
and click on "12" Woofers" for a very long list.
If you're just asking what people here are using for bass, I have an old pair of EVM12Ls (also guitar speakers) in Thiele cabinets that I still lug around when I need a live amp.
Jimmy J
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I did check the JBL's out, and they are moving freely, and are in really good shape. They are the 16 ohm versions, and the way they are wired net an 8 ohm load.
I do realize that speakers are extremely subjective, but everyone here understands that, and are great about giving their opinion, without judgement. I also realize that the cabinet has as much to do with the sound, as the speakers do, just like to get everyone's opinion. I'm definitely looking for more bottom end than top end. I'm going to see what comes of the responses and do some reading. Thanks for the advice.
Regards,
Pete
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I would suggest looking into these: https://usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2012pr300-1.htm
Or this: https://usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2012pr320-1.htm (bigger Xmax before destruction but a bit lower efficiency)
The JBLs are great speakers, but they aren't the greatest bass speakers (I know from experience. And ended up with a bunch of blown up ones in the process). A sealed cabinet can sound thinner than a ported one, but with the right cabinet/speaker match and enough power, they can go deeper with a tighter bass sound, which is very nice.
You probably want to do some research and calculate the volume of the box and try to get some speakers that are well matched to a sealed cabinet of that size.
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I have been using FAITAL speakers which are made in Italy , in my bass guitar cabinets for the last 4 years . I have played many live shows with them over the 4 years . I replaced all of the 10s in my four SWR Goliath Jr cabinets with the FAITAL 10PR300 Neo . That is a total of 8/10s . I usually only need two cabinets for inside gigs and have used all of the four cabs at outside Festivals . I recently acquired a 2X12 cabinet and promptly installed 12" Faital Speakers in that cab as well with Faital Model 12FH500 . I am very impressed with those Faital NEOS as well , I HIGHLY recommend Faital speakers . Over the course of my 50 years of playing the bass I have played through : JBL , GAUSS, EV, ALTEC, EMINENCE and many others .
FAITAL is my current first choice !
Check them out here ; https://faitalpro.com/en/
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You don't say how much you want to spend but the Eminence Legend line has a 12" bass speaker for $90 - $100 street price. They are somewhat middle of the road sound wise but have a decent reputation for their cost. Knowing your budget could help narrow down more suggestions.
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I just calculated the volume of each section at 2.76 cubic feet. It's essentially two separate cabinets in one, as there is a complete division between the sections. I got the cabinet, with a road case, loaded with the JBL's for $200, back around 1984. I have a 2x12" Schroeder cabinet that I really like, but I wouldn't mind being able to use the Bag End as a stand alone cabinet on occasion, so I'm willing to put some money into this, if the results are worthwhile. I can sell the JBL's to offset the cost. Loving all the suggestions, so I will spend some time on the US Speaker site, as they have quite a bit of information available for each speaker.
Regards,
Pete
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You could always check out Bag End 12's, they are a match for the cabinet.
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Eminence Delta Pro or Kappa Pro are worth checking out.
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Recommendations for 12" bass speakers? Trade them for 18s!! (nyuk, nyuk).
Peter (who is a firm believer in huge air columns)
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Since 18s were mentioned I will digress a little . I apologise if it has the appearance of a Hijack :)
I actually also still have two 18s . One is a Cerwin Vega B-48 Dual throat folded horn cabinet loaded with a JBL K-151 . I used that quite a bit in the 1980s in a Country band that opened for Johnny Pay Check once . We were the house band . It was powered with a SUNN 2000S ( long gone now ). The last time that I gigged with that rig was in 1988 when I played bass in another band in front of City Hall in San Francisco . Those cabinets were great outside,
The other 18 is a rare unit that was sold by Alembic as an A-18 . It has the machined aluminum speaker clips . That one is loaded with a GAUSS ! I would consider selling the Vega but the Alembic A-18 is connected to my Roland electronic drum kit and lives in my studio , :)
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I have a pair of 15" Gauss speakers, that are in A-15/WOS type cabinets. I've had them since the 80's, and got them from a guy who said they came from Little Feat, but had no way to prove that. I didn't care, I got the two cabinets loaded with the Gauss's, and a road case for next to nothing. Maybe I will pull them out as well, and see how they sound. Need a roadie first, or a new back!
Thanks for all the help.
Regards,
Pete
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I also have a few GAUSS 4580 15s . Two of them are also in some Alembic / WOS /A 15 type cabs . One of them I installed in a MESA - BOGGIE road ready cabinet . Yes , they are all very heavy ! I installed high quality wheels on the Mesa and took it to a gig last year and it worked quite well . Those GAUSS speakers can produce a distinctive lower mid- range growl that I like .
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With the sealed Bag End cabs, I wonder if it's worth looking into an ELF processor. They can seriously extend the low end. Of course, it would be helpful to see a picture of the cab.
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Just wanted to follow up on the recommendations I received from US Speaker. They said the Faital Pro 12RS550 would work really well with my cabinet, if I installed 2-4" round ports with a port depth of 9.25"/per cabinet section. They also recommended the Beyma 12WR400, with 2-4" round ports with a port depth of 7"/per cabinet section. They said the Beyma would have a more pronounced mid tone, and the Faital would have a deep powerful bass, and slightly mellower mid tone. Installing the ports would not be a big project, but I don't have any speaker design experience, so I thought I would see what everyone thought. I personally like the description of the sound of the Faitals, but "Deep powerful bass" is a very subjective description.
Regards,
Pete
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I'm the guitar one, so what the heck do I know! But I love the Celestion BN12-300s speaker in my Quilter cab. It's actually a bass speaker and, relying on a neodymium magnet, is very light weight. I can't tell you how it would sound in a bass rig, but I can personally attest it would make that rig a lot easier to hump in and out of a gig!
Bill, tgo
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I'm also looking to pick up one of Bag Ends ELF processors,as Edwin suggested, just to test it out. Ron had a hand in it's design, so I'm sure it will be worth it!
Regards,
Pete
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The best sounding 12" bass speaker I ever owned was an old EV guitar speaker. It had the smooth paper cone and I think the bass speakers used the ridge cones. I pulled it out of a vintage Lab Series guitar amp.
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The best sounding 12" bass speaker I ever owned was an old EV guitar speaker. It had the smooth paper cone and I think the bass speakers used the ridge cones. I pulled it out of a vintage Lab Series guitar amp.
Probably an EVM. A decent speaker, but would be quite mid heavy for bass. Their best attribute is that they are difficult to blow up. I've had a number of them. I never did really like the tone.
The designs and technology for bass drivers have progressed considerably since those days.
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It had a great growl to it. However, I did manage to blow it up after a year.
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It had a great growl to it. However, I did manage to blow it up after a year.
Definitely that growl! Good job on getting it to give up the ghost! I sure tried.
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Just wanted to give a quick update on this project. Talked to the people at Bag End, and they have been fantastic. After several discussions, they are leaning on a speaker that they had Eminence build for a project that never came to be. I'm waiting on specs for this E12-E, and then can decide between it, and the Faital Pro RS550. Faital is building speakers for Bag End, as well. I'm not going to cut in a port, in hopes of making this cabinet something it wasn't designed to be.
Regards,
Pete
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Shortly before this pandemic I acquired another speaker cabinet that was a design that seems to have been implemented in the Grateful Dead Wall of Sound . I rebuilt it recently . This one was designed as a keyboard fill cabinet. I spoke with Jim from Bagend about this speaker cabinet and he was really a wealth of information and very helpful . Jim from Bagend told me that the cabinet was catalogued as a BAGEND #1265. I am very grateful for his long conversation with me . It had 2X12"s and 6X5s originally . The 5"s were JBL 2105s originally and are not in production any more
When I acquired it there were no speaker drivers installed I made the decision that since none of the original drivers were currently available from JBL any more , that I would replace them with 21st century high quality speakers from a company in Italy called Faital that I have had exemplary results with in the past and have used their products in my current bass rig for years . I love their products ! I currently have the cabinet wired to be tri amped using external active crossovers and three discrete simultaneous channels of amplification .
I used these 12" Faital drivers for the low frequencies ;
12FH500{ 12" - 500 W - 97 dB - 8 Ohm }
One channel @ 2 x 8 OHMS in parallel = 4 Ohms
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I used these 4" Faital drivers as the midrange & high frequency units ;
4FE35{ 4" - 30 W - 91 dB - 16 Ohms }
Two channels @ 3x16 OHMS in parallel = 5.33 Ohms per channel .
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Total wired channels on cabinet : three
Connectors : three sets dual banana plug
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Faital Website : https://faitalpro.com/en (https://faitalpro.com/en)
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That cabinet is in really nice shape. Great job on the rebuild. The 12FH500's are also in the running for my cabinet. Looks like the are a little more efficient, half the weight, and have a bigger frequency response than the RS500's. Craig, and Henry at Bag End are also great guys'.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks Pete !
I am indeed elated at the performance and sonic qualities of the Faital 12FH500's .
As well I need to state and extend my sincere thanks and gratitude to have been given the opportunity to obtain this BagEnd unit . I love playing my Alembic Essence 6 tuned E/A/D/G/C/F through it as a facility of extended tuning bass voices for loops. ;).
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How do you think the Faital 12FH500's would be by themselves, in my cabinet? It looks to be the same size as yours, but no 5" speakers. Had never seen another one like it, but it turns out Edwin had the same cabinet. Just saw one in Rhode Island, on Craigslist too.
Regards,
Pete
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If you really want to crunch the numbers you will need exact measurements of your cabinet as well as the design type of your cabinet as to Sealed Infinite baffle / or ported , or etc ... , Their are specs known as Thiele /Small parameters that are used for such electromechanical calculations .
Thiele/Small parameters (commonly abbreviated T/S, or TSP) are a set of electromechanical parameters that define the specified low frequency performance of a loudspeaker driver.
I do not really know what you have , therefore if you have been working with US Speaker tell them your specs or contact Fatail directly . I am not sure without looking what the availability of the Faital 12FH500's currently is .
They are NEO's and nice and light . They very well may be fine for your application depending what your sound preferences are . Mine are definition , clarity and punch inclusive of the full spectrum of the program input .
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This is a sealed cabinet, with essentially two sections. Each section of this cabinet is 2.62 cu/ft. US Speaker recommended a 4" port installation to each section. I would rather not go this route. I really need to spend some time to learn more about the science and math behind these calculations.
Regards,
Pete
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The BagEnd Cab that I installed the Faital 12FH500 speakers in has three sealed sections ; One each for the 12s and one section for the high frequency drivers . Somewhat similar to your low frequency sections . I am fairly certain that I could slightly increase the lower end performance with tuned ports as well if there were room to do so on the front of my cabinet. I could do so on the back side , however in my case of bringing this historic relic back to life , I set forth to " LESS IS MORE & DO NO HARM " as I often do with such restorations of equipment in my hands. I wanted to keep it a BagEnd 1265 as much as possible . There are are cases where some of the science suffers for esoteric , cosmetic , practical or financial reasons . Sometimes that is acceptable and reasonable in judgement for me .
Best Regards to you and for your project !
Wolf