Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: lbpesq on May 12, 2019, 02:10:04 PM
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So I had an idea that I thought I’d throw out there and see what people think.
The Problem:
I often play in situations where only the vocals go through the PA. So I’m doing the balancing act with wanting to hear my guitar clearly without being too loud in the audience mix. And, without mics on the amps and drums, or a soundman, in-ears aren't an option
My Solution Idea:
I was thinking that I could set up a pair of mics facing left and right just behind me and run each into a small mixer. Then I would take the headphone out from my guitar amp and run this into a third channel on the mixer, and hook the output of the mixer to the in-ears transmitter. Then I could use my in-ears, pan the two mics left and right and mix them to act as my ears to hear the band, vocal floor monitor, etc., and mix in my guitar to the volume I want to hear without turning up my amp. Does this make sense? Have I invented something that already exists? Will it work? As Tony Soprano might say, whaddya think?
Bill, tgo
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Hmmmmm.
Maybe use one of those fancy sits-on-a-dummy-head stereo mic set-ups to get closer to what you'd hear naked.
Peter
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I was thinking the same thing. Looking at these:
https://3diosound.com/products/free-space-binaural-microphone (https://3diosound.com/products/free-space-binaural-microphone)
In the meantime, I tried it today with a pair of Beta 58s, the headphone out on my Quilter amp, and playing along with tunes on my Pono through my PA. It seemed to work fairly well, though I suspect there are more appropriate mics than the Shures. I picked up a Samson Mixpad 4 on reverb today. This could get interesting.
Bill, tgo
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Unless your amp has a speaker emulator for the headphone output, I'm guessing it's not going to sound right since your speakers contribute to a significant degree to your overall tone. Perhaps instead of using the headphone out, just mic the speaker cab for the third channel.
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The Quilter headphone out rolls off the high frequencies and actually sounds quite good and similar to the sound of the amp through speakers. The more time I spend with the Quilter, the more impressed I am.
Bill, tgo
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Agree with David, mic'ing guitar amp sounds way better than direct output. I also wouldn't use any binaural mic or any distant/ambient configuration. The Beta 58 are good on rejection (you don't need leaking cancelation going on) and can sound fat and tight enough if you use them close to the sources.
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I think we are getting a little off track. The issue is not whether to use the headphone out or the DI on the amp. Let’s pretend I’m not even running my guitar through a separate channel. The issue is the best way to hear the same thing through my in-ears that I hear with my ears when there are no mics on the amps and drums. I’m not trying to close up mic amps, drums, etc. I’m trying to hear everything as I hear it naturally as I’m standing on stage playing with the band. Thus, it seems to me, some type of stereo mic setup near my head (like right behind me) should “hear” the same thing I hear naturally. The Beta 58s are a tight cardioid pattern. Would not omnidirectional mics work better for this purpose?
Bill, tgo
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I don't know if this will work - I'll be following the thread with great interest - but if it can work, it seems to me you're on the right track to do so; definitely stereo, though I think the binaurals would be a bit closer to hemispherical rather than omni (which is as it should be). And glad to see your link to those binaurals; I did a quick look at Full Compass, and the ones they had were $899.........
Something to keep in mind, though: As I think you're right about needing close placement, you might want to work on a more Jerry-like stage presence, as opposed to going full Bobby, if you get my drift (no matter what you use, it ain't agonna work well lying on the stage).
Peter
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Hey Bill,
What's your goal here? You just said:
"I’m trying to hear everything as I hear it naturally as I’m standing on stage playing with the band."
But you ARE standing there! Is the stage volume too loud? Or are you just looking for a bit "more me" without throwing off the band balance? Both legit reasons for you to come up with your interesting concept. And I'm sure you could get it to work. But I'm afraid the loss of sonic fidelity would be a drag. As you say, it's different if everything is miced and you can get a good monitor mix to your in-ears. But think of how tricky it will be to hear full-fidelity sound via mics, board, wireless transmitter, receiver pack and in-ears... It's gonna be hard to beat the sound of just taking the in-ears out.
I'd like to offer two simple alternative ideas to consider: For "more me", how about raising (or tilting) your guitar amp speaker cabinet so you will be able to hear yourself more directly while still being able to stay in balance with the band? And, if it's an overall volume issue, some 5 or 10db earplugs would make life easier.
Just some thoughts.
Jimmy J
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When I feel too isolate from band using IEM, because we can miss leaking and ambience sometimes - room has that glue effect that melts sounds -, I simply get phone off (or half off) one ear. But you are right, if you miss that washed open reverberant sound one single omni mic could do the trick.
If available, we always ask sound crew to put one distant open mic to sum with all direct and close sources dry tone and add a little ambience to it. Not much to hearing the band, since we got everyone going to desk, but to feel the audience vibe better in bigger venues.
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Jimmy got a point here. We can't hear guitars with our knees because highs are too directional and all the low end spreading from PA back - that are omni by nature - and can obliterate definition (that is why we use monitors along PA systems). Big stack amps can bring loudspeakers close to the ears but regular guitar amp combos should be raised or tilted up, at least.
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I really appreciate all of you chiming in. I can’t imagine a better place to bounce around ideas like this.
I’m looking for “more me”. I’m doing the Bobby role in a Dead band. It’s difficult to nuance my playing if I can’t hear myself well. And turning up my amp, while it sounds great to me, it can throw off the band balance. I’ve done the get-the-amp-up-and-nearer-to-your-head thing for years. On the few occasions when I’ve used in-ears in a band situation, I’ve loved it. Great for vocals and guitar. But most of the time I’m playing with only vocals going through the PA.
I’m trying to rig it so I hear the same thing through the in-ears that I hear without them, and then have the ability adjust the overall volume and mix in my guitar as I like. If I could put something together that was small and convenient, it might be worth it. Of course quality of sound is an important factor. My experiment this afternoon with the Beta 58s didn’t sound half bad. But I’ll have to try it in a band situation to really tell. I’ve also thought about just using one ear or, more likely, putting the ear pieces in loosely so there will be plenty of bleed from the live stage sound. So I guess my next question is what would be the best mics? The one I linked above with the ears looks interesting.
Bill, tgo
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OK, a couple more ideas then... Perhaps nice sounding but non-isolating earbuds (or one ear only) which wouldn't attenuate the ambient sound too much but would allow you to dial in some direct sound sources? -OR- Futuresonics IEMs have ports so you can hear some sound through them. And I think Sensaphonics make IEMs with mics on the ear pieces and a special pack which allows you to balance ambient sound (at your ears) with the sound coming from a monitor source. But those last two ideas would be costly experiments.
Last but not least, how about a tiny hotspot on a micstand with whatever extra sounds you might want?
I'm sure you could build what you're describing and make it work. The trick will be to not make it too complicated and to not isolate yourself too much from the world you are playing in. Somebody in the audience will come up to talk to you and you'll have to say "talk into those mics over there" HA!
Good brainstorming!
Jimmy J
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My less than .02 cents thoughts:
I have found from recording music (and other things) that the more I try to concentrate on hearing just one sound in the mix, that the less well I can hear it! It's kinda like how we have night vision loss in the center of our eyes, so to see one detail at night, we have to slightly look off-center. But maybe that's just me?
I sometimes use a wireless on my guitar on stage and look for a sweet spot to stand in. And sometimes I end up playing louder than I should in an attempt to hear myself better. I am training myself to the 'less is better' concept, though.
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What about trying a PJB earbox. It seems designed for bass but may be suitable for guitar also?
http://philjonesbass.net/cms/index.php/product-eb-001/ (http://philjonesbass.net/cms/index.php/product-eb-001/)
(https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fjes1988.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F05%2FNathan-2-Earbox.jpg&sp=cd51d8608a7eec49f4665bd448b53651)
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Well, to do this really right, what you need are the Sensaphonics IEMs with microphones built in. Not cheap. They have a universal fit version that's a bit less.
https://www.sensaphonics.com/3d
Other than that, two well placed omni condensers can do the trick. Adjust placement to bring in more or less of the band and surrounding stuff.
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I always raise an amp near my head so I can hear myself perfectly, and I have Earware ear plugs I think on -9db, so I an hear myself great, whole band (and they are loud), and ambiance, for now that's just perfect for me.
I always say to people that earplugs are the best thing to get used to. Just for custom molded earplugs I payed around 300 dollars, but man, they worth it...
But following the topic, great question.
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I just saw this, that looks interesting :)
https://www.sensaphonics.com/music-pro-electronic-earplugs
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Interesting. Seems like an in-ear that functions as either a limiter or a compressor. Pretty fancy!
I bought a small mic stand mountable 50 watt personal monitor. It should arrive tomorrow. I’m going to experiment with it as well as the in-ear/ambient stereo mics set up when the mini mixer arrives next week. Will report back.
Bill, tgo
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Bill...I did something similar to this when I first got my IEM's. I wanted to get used to playing with them and created a late night home practice rig doing something similar to what you're describing. I mic'd my cab and ran that into a Behringer Xenyx 1002B that I had. Then I ran out from the mixer to the transmitter for my IEM's. Did the trick.
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I just came upstairs from the studio where I have been trying out the little 50 watt personal powered monitor on a mic stand. Seems to work very well! The real test will be next week when I play in a full band situation. I also haven’t given up on the in-ears solution, but that will have to wait until my little mixer is delivered. The monitor I got was a great deal. The same one, branded “Powerwerks” is $150. The one I got is branded “Kustom”. Usually sells in the $90-$120 range, but I found it on Musicians Friend for $70 with free shipping. Great little unit for the money!
https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/kustom-kustom-kpc4p-powered-monitor-speaker/h77537000000000?pfm=search_page.rr1%7CRecentHistoricalItems (https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/kustom-kustom-kpc4p-powered-monitor-speaker/h77537000000000?pfm=search_page.rr1%7CRecentHistoricalItems)
Bill, tgo