Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: RBW on March 23, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
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OK, It's probably my own fault, but I can't seem to get some fantastic sound out of my new Alembic Spyder bass... I feel almost ashamed but I've tried it with my Ashdown, my Sunn Coliseum, my Galien Krueger 500 fusion amps and I'm not really getting some great sound. I am in need of some instructions please.. I turn up the bridge volume probably a little over halfway, they the neck to about a little less than the bridge pick up first... Then I carefully use the Q's to my taste but theres no real Wow sound I get. My cheap music man sounds better, as does my warwick buzzard too!
What am I doing wrong? I've been playing for awhile and it's not like I am not adjusting the amp correctly either... Granted it probably would sound better with a tube amp, or a different amp since they all do... but I still think I must be missing something... if anyone can help I would appreciate it. I'm trying to get the Entwistle with clean bass and a nice metallic twang on top. I don't mean with bi amping, but I can get that with my other bass guitars so is there something I'm not doing or some adjustments I should be privy too. Should I turn the Q's up more or use them less? Any help would be appreciated since I still owe 8,000.00 on the bass and I'm feeing embarrassed to admit that I'm not really getting what I pretty much expected to get for such a beautiful bass! I'm going to have the strings changed when I get a set of rotosounds so I"m hoping that will help... but anything else I'm open to...
Thanks for letting me be humble but it makes sense this should be fantastic if you know how to use it.... right? Now I just got the Alembic FX 1 and I just ordered a more old school Orange OB1 300 head so I'm hoping to find a couple of nice heads that I can bi amp with the FX 1 into a some high/low cabinets but until then what can I do??/
Richard
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I would think new strings would be a plus (not sure what condition the ones on it are). Have you put in a fresh battery? It almost sounds like there's something wrong. How does it sound with just the neck pickup? That's where I tend to start with my Stanley Clarke bass - I know it's a different style Alembic but then at least you can see if you can get the low end you want - then dial in some bridge pickup. I would think that even with just the neck pickup you should be able to get a thunderous sound.
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Strings will make a HUGE difference, and I think especially on an Alembic they are an extremely powerful tone control. When Phil Lesh came to pick up his first 6-string bass, we had GHS strings on it. I thought they sounded great with my playing, but he was really underwhelmed. I also had DR make some Sunbeams for him, and when we changed the strings, the smile was a mile wide! The DRs sounded TERRIBLE when I played it and I was worried we made the worst sounding bass we ever made for Phil so I asked James to change the strings the GHS ones before Phil showed up. It's highly personal, and you must "drive there" yourself. Certainly Rotosound is a great choice for emulating a JE tone.
The Q on your bass is the mini switch - make sure you have the Q switch in the down position with playing to get a more aggressive attack. For brighter sounds, favor the bridge pickup and turn the filter frequency control to a higher setting (the range is about 300Hz-6KHz).
Are you using the same amp settings for all your basses? Sometimes you need to work out a different approach, start with the flattest settings on the amp and then adjust from there. Not all preamps have flat at 5-5-5 on the bass-middle-treble, the F-1X for instance is flat at about 2-10-2.
It might be good to have a conversation on the phone next week.
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Richard, I notice you mention, "I turn up the bridge volume probably a little over halfway, they the neck to about a little less than the bridge pick up first."
With the 2 volumes setup, I'd start with both at full blast, then turn one of the volumes down until you hit the sweet spot, and repeat for the other volume. This should result in more gain hitting your amp, which may already add the edge you're missing.
Then there's the internal trimpots that adjust the output level per pickup: they're probably set at a level where you can turn them up considerably. And you can adjust so the sweet spot is closer to both volumes fully up.
Mind you, if you switch between instruments it's probably a good idea to match the output levels between them.
And have you tried adjusting pickup height? See Joey's Post On Setting Up Your Bass (http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=311.0)
Happy tone hunting!
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See if you can contact Senmen, he could probably help you out with finding the Entwistle tone on your Spyder bass...
http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=4104.0
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In addition to Adriaan's suggestion I also like to start with the filters fully open and make adjustments on the preamp to get the sound I am looking for. I generally like a slightly scooped sound so when setting up my preamp, an Ednen Navigator, I start from flat. Next I do any midrange frequency setting and cuts needed for the room. Lastly I boost the lows and highs to round out the sound. I will then use the filters on the bass to fine tune the tone.
Another thing I do is leave the Q-switches off. I tend to use the two position Q-switch more as an effect than standard playing position these days. So it remains off unless I want to add some extra bite in a passage. This was not something I did early in my Alembic playing years but learned over the years. As my finger control improved I found I could get the bright tones I was using the full on Q-switch to compensate for. While your bass doesn't have them I do the same with the three position Q-switch on my Series bass. Full on is an effect however I use the middle position more like the filters as an adjustment to sit in the mix better.
I'm sure you'll get it. It took me a while to get use to the the filters and tonal range but after a while the adjustments become second nature.
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Thanks for the suggestions! OK, I'll start with a smile EQ with the middle down a little, I'll check the batteries, and I'll also try without the q sticks on ta boot! I ordered some Rotosound so I'll have the strings lowered a little and put on the rotosounds when I get them... I had to be honest so I could get some help! I can also start with everything up instead of bringing it up and see if I can find a sweet spot. I'll let you all know! It's sunday so I'm simply contemplating till this evening. I will change the batteries though, it was probably sitting in a box for a years so we'll see....
Thanks very much!
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New batteries made quite a difference, I should get the new strings on monday, so I'll go foreword with that and the advice. I'll keep you posted, since this should be fantastic. I've got a Sunn coliseum split between a Sunn 2x15 and a Traynor YB 18 which is a cerwin vegas 18" on the bottom and two 8" crossover speakers on top... a real leviathan, and those sound great so I should get the Alembic to go with those easily.... I'll start over and do the opposite of what I've been doing so things should get better..... any prayers would help!
Thanks,
Richard
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Yes to everything suggested above. Strong agreement with Keith and Mica.
Strings are huge, I went through a period of years questing for the best string for my Distillate, found GHS Boomers to be the ticket. Recently I boldly switched to Chromes and can’t be happier.
I also (after 30+ years ownership) discovered and embrace the Q switch thing that Keith mentioned.
Rob is correct, Senmen would be a great resource. Part of the The Ox’s sound (as you probably know) is his typewriter right hand attack and in the later years he utilized sound effects to add to The Thunder. I am not sure what type of signal processing he used but do know that the couple times I saw him solo in the later years my personal opinion was he used too much processing. But again it was a big part of his sound.
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RBW, there is a 'learning curve' that we all went through when we got our first Alembics. The pickups and electronics are extremely neutral and powerful. I clearly remember at first thinking, 'is this all there is?'.
They are incredibly clear: Think of the difference in big-dollar recording studio monitors versus first-rate home stereo speakers. The studio monitors are unforgiving in that every sound is reproduced so very accurately they lack what we perceive as warmth in home stereo speakers. This is where you're at with Alembic pickups and their tone circuits.
As Micah always reminds, your instrument is the bass + amp/speakers + any effects. This signal chain is your instrument. A bass in a case is silent, as is an amp with nothing plugged in. And as with any bass, the amp it's plugged into makes all the difference, and your usual settings for your other basses may not be best for the Alembic.
When I got my first one, my amp settings went out the window. The pickups were the first I owned where I could easily and clearly hear the difference in one brand of string to the next. I'd owned lots of great axes, but I never heard the difference in strings until I got an Alembic. Spooky.
Settle on the strings (Rotos, it sounds like), work with Q controls, and find the amp settings to suit. It takes a little while to wrap your head around all this, but there is nothing, and I mean nothing like an Alembic, nor the people that build and support them, the best people in the instrument business I ever dealt with by a mile.
PS When I wanted that Squire / Entwistle 'clavinet on steroids' tone, I'd use the neck pickup with the Q almost wide open and use a pick back around the bridge pickup. Sounded like ice picks . . . . . .
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When I got my first alembic a Clarke signature deluxe. I was coming from the perspective of a long time guitar player with occasional bass playing. I knew nothing about active electronics and even less about any on of the classic tones associated with particular basses and/or players.
I knew about Stanley and his tone diversity which is what attracted me to the Alembic basses but not much else.
I can confidently say it took me well over a year to start to understand what I was doing with the controls and how to get some consistency in being able to pick the right sound for a track I was playing. When I was gigging, which wasn't that often in those early days, with it the tracks were covers that did not have alembic basses on the original recordings so I got frustrated in trying to get those bass tones to sound like the records, when the alembic always sounded so different. I think after a long time posting really basic questions here getting helpful responses and reading more and more of the threads I stopped trying to doing that and just started to find a bass tone that I felt fitted well to the track.
Once I got into the hang of that I found that most of the tracks I was covering as a dep player could be done with the same basic tone, so learnt to get to that tone easily then as I got better at doing that and started covering tracks with radically different bass tones in my own band I started moving away from that and really discovered how I can shape my tone with the filters.
I also continue to use Stanley Clarke's records as tone references and learn to get close to the sounds he gets on record. Not because I want to sound like him but doing that helps me massively as he uses an incredible range of tones within one album and even one song. I would say that for someone new to a twin filter based alembic it takes a lot of time, willpower and patience to finally “get it” but when you do that’s it.
I have read far too many stories on line of people selling their alembics off far too quickly because they didn’t understand that these basses are not standard two or 3 band eq. I expect you have invested a lot of cash in the bass so because it is not a one trick pony, time is the next installment in that investment. :-).
Another thing I picked up from the years of reading this forum is that once you accept it is NOT going to sound like other basses things will start to pick up.
As for bass rigs, absolutely they makes a huge difference as do strings and their age. I moved on my Trace Elliot rig not long after getting my alembic as I felt the amp was too strongly voiced to allow the alembic sound to come out properly. I moved to a Mesa Boogie walkabout head which although voiced too was much less intrusive to what I wanted soundwise.
These days I tend to mainly use an F1-x and a lightweight class D power amp setup depending on the gig.
Happy experimenting. I hope you find a happy place with it. I almost bought a Spyder recently but the seller stopped making contact after a few emails. :-(
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New batteries made quite a difference
Just a quick note that there is only one battery for the output of the bass. If you changed multiple batteries, you also changed changed the batteries for the LEDs. The battery that's all by itself is the one that matters.
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Make all your changes (strings, batteries) then re-read what jazzyvee wrote (glad i didn't make that selling off too quickly mistake). When i got my latest Alembic i couldn't believe what i was hearing. I was in that angry stage of i spent this and this is the sound? But, i didn't give up. Sure i would spend time with the bass and then in frustration put it back in the closet and made up my mind that is where it will stay. But, then i would practice with it, tweek the controls, getting there. Took about a year and a half of adjusting controls and quite frankly finding the correct technique to play such a beast . Only then, was it on stage. Now, i couldn't imagine not having this bass. Travels with me to all the most important shows. Nothing but "wows" from people about the sound. My wife says she can feel it in her chest but, she is a breast cancer survivor, so?Anyway.. Keep working at it. Keep us posted on your progress.
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My first Alembic was a Spoiler and I was able to get the tone I desired pretty quickly as the electronics on the Spoiler are a little more akin to other basses. Just one filter to deal with.
But then a few years later, I got a Series I and was totally baffled by it. After trying to fiddle with the filters unsuccessfully for a few weeks, I ended up just leaving them all the way open until I got a better handle on what they did.
I was perplexed by the Series I for about a year. Eventually I got the hang of it, similar to what others here are saying.
I also had a Spyder similar to you're a last year and absolutely loved the sound. It had incredible sustain and a warm rich delicious tone. I found that the mono/stereo switch made a huge difference for me going through my particular amp.
I play through an Ampeg V4B reissue head with e Heritage 410 cabinet. I love it!
Hope that helps a little. Hang in there and keep toying with the controls! You'll get it and end up falling in love soon enough.
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Maybe redundant, but have you explored the stereo function?
I owned a Spyder for a few years and the most effective amplification system I tried was stereo: Ampeg SVT for the bridge PU and SWR 750X for the neck PU. I used stock Alembic strings and made sure the preamp gain on each amp was set high enough to allow a full sound, just on the verge of overdrive.
I also used a couple of AER bass combos for lower volume situations.
Combine the stereo effect with the precision of the "typewriter" technique for your picking hand and you should be close.
IMO, that technique with low action is critical to obtaining a ringing (almost percussive) clear sound.
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Make all your changes (strings, batteries) then re-read what jazzyvee wrote (glad i didn't make that selling off too quickly mistake). When i got my latest Alembic i couldn't believe what i was hearing. I was in that angry stage of i spent this and this is the sound? But, i didn't give up. Sure i would spend time with the bass and then in frustration put it back in the closet and made up my mind that is where it will stay. But, then i would practice with it, tweek the controls, getting there. Took about a year and a half of adjusting controls and quite frankly finding the correct technique to play such a beast . Only then, was it on stage. Now, i couldn't imagine not having this bass. Travels with me to all the most important shows. Nothing but "wows" from people about the sound. My wife says she can feel it in her chest but, she is a breast cancer survivor, so?Anyway.. Keep working at it. Keep us posted on your progress.
Thanks everyone so much!!! Ok, I'll start brand new... I'm used to using more the bridge pick up, but I will try differently... I also noticed that My Spyder is a lot better with rotosound and a new battery, I changed the 4 for the led too... just for jollies... It sounds MUCH better on the OB1-300 and it sounded terrible on the Geezer Butler Ashdown! I'm going to try tow OB1-300's and the Fx-1 when I get the other OB1 and do it into a 4x10 Ampeg and 15 ampeg to try some bi amping. It's totally new and I will not give up... I still need the strings lowered and I'm waiting for the longer Rotosound to get here too... the ones I had were long.. but not long enough so the wrapping red is in the notches now and although it won't hurt I'm still waiting for the longer strings.... OK I really appreciate the feelings you had because I was really freaking out... how can my inexpensive Dean hybrid entwistle sound this good and my Spyder not!!! Man, I have to get back to the beginning and start over. I'm basically getting rid of all the 8x10's and the usual rampant sound coming out a lot of the same speakers.... the real bass players never did that! I'm going to try to do what Entwistle did but theres no way to find some kind of STRAMP like he used, so I'm hoping the Fx-1 will introduce me to that.
I will also try it on my GB 550 fusion and the 4x12 GB cabinet too. OK... I appreciate the things I can identify with big time! Thanks everyone... I'm going to conquer this! It's fantastic but I haven't found it yet... Tomorrow is another day!
Richard
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I'm going to try to do what Entwistle did but theres no way to find some kind of STRAMP like he used,
Careful what you Ox for ;)
http://www.rockstarsguitars.com/category/who/john-entwistle-who/page/3/ (http://www.rockstarsguitars.com/category/who/john-entwistle-who/page/3/)
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Hi,
Could you please explain the stereo way you are talking about? I have to say with new battery (Thanks Mica) and new strings... Rotosound, it sounds like a real bass now! It's fantastic with the OB1 - 300 and I'm planning on using 2 of those put through the Fx - 1 for some bi amping. I'll try with a couple of extra Ampeg 4x10 and 115 I have on hand. Basically the OB1 - 300 sounds great through that new funky Traynor 1510 which I have to say is impressive though pretty much unknown.
How can I do a stereo on the Spyder? Slow and steady with plenty of expressions since I'm daft with tech stuff completely....
Thanks,
Richard
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The Spyder bass uses Anniversary electronics. By using a TRS to TR 'Y' cable and setting the stereo/mono switch to stereo you can split each pickup into its own signal chain.
In a basic preamp/amp/cabinet for each pickup the sound really opens up. It also allows for interesting results if you use signal processing on one pickup with the other dry. Even in a mono rig by using a preamp like the F2B you can get more tone control by running each pickup into its own channel.
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It is not exactly stereo, but 2 individual channels, where each PU goes separated through a TRS jack or, in Serie basses, 5 pin XLR male jack. That way, instead of Left/Right you get Neck PU/Bridge PU. You can mono sum with a regular guitar TS cable, but you can split with the Y cable Keith mentioned.
In time, although is not the same as processing neck and bridge PUs differently, many recent bass dedicated pedals have built in crossovers that splits signal to preserve the low end (as we see on many bass chorus boxes) or just splits 2 full range signals to allow parallel processing (like on some bass overdrivers and compressors). These are 2 simple ways to use effects on Bass that changed the game a little, allowing us using less complex , bulky and expensive bass amp systems that those cats needed at the 70's.
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Thanks alot, I have no knowledge of any pedals yet... I just want to used two amps/power heads and determine how much bass goes into one cabinet and the same with hi's to another cabinet. I'm layman as far as the rest. I noticed that the Sunn Coliseum amp has a dial to decide on the front of it where the amount is going... isn't that neat? you just can't find that stuff anymore...
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I've been there. Know exactly what you're going through
Shoot me an email with your phone number.
I think I can help..
John
risti996tt@yahoo.com
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Well...as an experienced "Spyderman" :-) some comments from my side:
Playing the first notes of my brand new Spyder built in 2015 made me also think...Mhhh...main output level is a bit weak compared to my other bass guitars...so I turned the internal trim pots to maximum level. Next thing I had to do was lifting up the strings a bit - I play like "The Ox" using the typewriter style, factory settings of the string's height made them vibrating on the frets.
Next then was turning the filters away first and ignore the Q-switches for a while, just for finding the correct balance between the PUs. Optimum for me (but that's very individual - depending very much on the style you are playing!) is to turn the neck PU to max. and the bridge PU to 2/3 volume. Next thing of course are the strings! I use ELIXIR strings - they don't have that brilliance right from the beginning, but they keep their sound for a very long time, just until the nano coating starts to crackle away. My rig just consists of a TC RH750 top and a Phil Jones C8 Lite cab - a perfect counterpart for the Spyder! The only pedal I have in use is the Boss Octaver OC-3. I love the TC head becaus it's programmable, I have programmed 3 "basic" sounds: First one having a bass boost in the low-down range fro getting a fat sound - overwhelming when activating the Octaver while having switched the Spyder to the bridge PU only! 2nd setting is a "funky" one, boosting the mid/high range. Turning up both PU volume pots to the max, the sound is exactly like in Melissa Etheridge's "Like the way I do" - or to The Who's "Can't explain". 3rd amp setting is a mid-range boosted one, enhanced with a very small part of the built-in tube sound simulator. This setting combined with the Spyder's volume pots set to neck PU 2/3 and bridge PU full leads to a "Flea-like" sound, I use that e.g. for playin' "Around the world".
So far for the basic settings - if needed, I also activate the filter pots on the Spyder, e.g. for playing "jazzy" parts with less treble - but that's also a very individual thing to do, just try it yourself.
Hope that helps a bit...
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I’ve owned a Spyder, and now own a Series II Entwistle replica. It’s different from the Spyders, but .... it still has the filters and the Q switches (continuously variable).
I use DR Hi Beam strings (I used to use Rotosounds, but .... in past years something has happened to them where they go dead very quickly, to me at least), .40 - .100 and I don’t have a problem getting that twangy Entwistle tone. You might want to give them a shot at some point.
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Thanks for all the help! I'm finally realizing that the hi end is usually the neck pots instead of the bridge! I also have found not to turn up the adjusters, or whatever they are called (usually tone) very little since it's peaks really fast! It's a real job to get what I want. I'm playing with crossover with an FX-1 over a Behringer NX1000 so there's almost 500 going to each Orange speaker. It's really 250 since they are both 8 ohm but still this is my library so I don't need it so loud. Anyway.. thanks alot. I got the rotosound Swing bass on it and I'm just learning with a lot of work to get the sound near what I want.
Richard
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When I first got my Series II Europa I thought it was defective because I could turn the CVQ controls from stop to stop & not hear any difference in tone. I had what was at the time the top of the line Eden rig with a WT 800 head & a D115 & D410 cabinets. I got rid of the Eden rig & got an Alembic F-2B preamp with a SF-2 Superfilter & QSC power amp going into AccuGroove cabinets & difference was incredible! I could hear the slightest turn on the CVQ's & filters. Alembics are capable of an amazing range of tones but it takes a good amp & probably more important, good speaker cabinet to reproduce the full spectrum of sound they are capable of. If you're not happy with your sound on your Alembic I can assure you the problem is probably not the bass!
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Hey Rusty! Good to see you here. :D
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Thanks Gregory! It's been a while since I posted anything! I was feeling nostalgic last night & went back & read my build thread for the Blue Orca. It's so wonderful to have that record preserved to relive the excitement of having a custom build! Hope everyone is doing well!
Rusty
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Hey Rusty, hope all is well in Texas! Jen and I return to Alaska in two weeks for our fifth visit, when we met up with you in Seward four years ago the night before our wedding it was our second trip. Only been back to Seward once since then, one stunning sunny beautiful day when we finally were able to hike the Lost Lakes Trail, rest of our trip, which included going to Salmonfest, it rained pretty much every day. Naturally we were thinking about you while there. No Kenai Peninsula for us this time, we will be headed to the interior to check out Wrangell St. Elias National Park and the Denali Highway then heading north for our first visit to the Fairbanks area and finishing up with a short return to Denali National Park. Would be great if you, and Blue Orca, can make it to the "yet to be announced" CA Alembic gathering this year.
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Hey Stephen! Great to hear from you! Glad to hear you & Jen are still making the trek to Alaska! I will be there from July 1-12 this year. I hope you will be lucky enough to actually see Denali, it only comes out of the clouds about 10 times a year I'm told! The year we went we had a clear view of the mountain driving in the day before we arrived at the park, but the next day when we rode the bus to the mountain we couldn't even see the base of it! If you've never been to Fairbanks you may be disappointed, there is really not much to see there compared to Seward & other more mountainous parts of the state. It gets really hot there too, 95 in the summer! North Pole, Alaska is nearby though so make sure you go there & say hi to Santa!
I would love to go to a Cali Gathering! If it falls on my days off I will definitely try to make it. All my vacation time is spoken for this year.
I'll try not to be such a stranger around here.
Rusty
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Hello Richard,
may I chime in although I am a bit late?
Oliver (Spyderman) here.
I did found and run a WHO tribute here in Germany and mainly played a Spyder 4 and a Spyder 8, lateron
a custom made Dragon Wing nicknamed Tears for John.
Well first: you cannot compare the LE Spyders to a Series like the one Alan Dover has.
But you can try to get as close as possible.
Well the most important to start with:
the strings.
I must say, sorry for that, that the stock Alembic strings are good, but not suitable for a JE like piano sound as they miss too much too end.
My favorite ones have been Rotos RS66. They are the best for that sound. DRs are also not bad as well as the Maxima/Optima Gold. But they are way too expensive and loose the high end quickly.
Secondly:
Setup and your fingers.
You should run the lowest possible action and you should develop a light touch to the strings as well try to learn the typewriter technique.
I played my Spyders and the DW with different rigs.
Started with an Eden rig to an Ashdown one, a Trace Elliot to TC Electronic.
To me the best one was the Trace Elliot as I could run it without any effects support to get the sound.
Let me know if I can help you if you need more info.
Have a great day
Greetz
Oliver (Spyderman).