Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: RBW on March 10, 2019, 10:53:34 AM
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OK,
Where do I plug in the pre amp to the amp? Can someone give me the right inputs to plug in my Fx-1 to my power head? Just not really a tech here. I'll be honest the Ashdwon JE 1000 was easy to plug into the power head made for that! But, I have no idea where to put the wires/plugs from the amp to the Fx-1 and anything would help. I have a Genz Benz streamliner 900 that seems the simplest power head to use to join with the Fx-1. The Ashdown JE 1000 weighs like 60 lbs. so it's ridiculous to use that. Now I could get just a power head with no preamp and use that. Which one? Is there a way to actually do the hi/low so I can adjust the two speakers? Or should I just plug it into the 8x10 fridge I have OR two 2x15 Sunn bass cabinets and just get a probably 500 watt power head so I don't burn up the cabinets?
Any simply solution and recommendations would be of great value! I have the Entwistle Spyder bass and it's beautiful, but If I had more money, I would order one that weighed about 7 lbs lighter... Oh well... life.
Thanks,
Richard
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... Where do I plug in the pre amp to the amp? ... I have a Genz Benz streamliner 900 that seems the simplest power head to use to join with the Fx-1 ... Any simply solution and recommendations would be of great value!
Simple solution is to plug into the Receive jack of the EFX Loop. The Master Volume on the Streamliner will control the signal being input to the power amp section. All of the Streamliner's preamp controls will be bypassed.
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Hi, Richard, and welcome to the club. Here's a little Gear 101:
Most guitar and bass amp combos and heads are actually composed of a preamp and a power amp. I believe your Genz Benz 900 is is just such an amp. You can also have a separate preamp and power amp. Your F-1X is a stand alone preamp. You need to mate it to a power amp, and then to a speaker cabinet. (Although, your F-1X does have a direct out that can go straight to the PA, but let's leave that for Gear 102). On some amps with a effects loop (like your Genz Benz), you can plug into the return of the effects loop and just use the power amp section of the Genz Benz. I don't know if this would work with your Genz Benz and strongly suggest you research this before trying it so you don't fry anything. Otherwise, you will need a power amp. If you give us an idea of your budget and your playing situation, there are lots of folks around here who can advise you on your best options. Once you get it all together you will really enjoy your F-1X. It's a great preamp.
Bill, the guitar one
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I'd not bother trying to split the signal high/low. On all the stages I've ever played it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. Seeing as you have an 8x10 ampeg, I'd take a mono jack from the full range output on the F1-x into the effects receive on the streamliner. According to the genz manual the effects loop is specifically designed for this ...
"EFFECTS LOOP – A rear panel effects loop (SEND and RECEIVE jacks) is provided for connecting line level “serial” outboard devices such as compressors and may also be used for parallel type outboard devices (delays, reverbs, harmonizers, octavers etc.) by using the mix control located on the outboard device. This loop is located right before the Master Volume control and is also intended as a Preamp Out / Power Amp In connection for possible “chaining” of amplifiers in a Master / Slave configuration. The effects “loop” contains a “normal switch” in the receive jack that interrupts the signal path when a plug is inserted into the receive jack. The send jack may be used as a Post-EQ Aux. output without breaking the signal path. The Master Volume control adjusts the volume of any signal input through the Effects Return jack.".
Of course you may find you prefer the tones of the genz without using the F1-x in which case I'm sure there are loads of folk on here willing to take it off your hands.
Graeme.
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OK... Thank all of you alot@ I don't want to seem stupid... but I am limited in tech.... OK... The GB sounds great already... HOWEVER, I would really like to get a simple power head, but not 1000 watts that weighs a ton like the JE Ashdown I have... Too much weight! Can someone suggest a simple power head that is more conducive to use the Fx-1 with that has the high/low etc. in holes/inputs to use? Is there one more make for using a pre amp that someone can suggest? Like 600 watts? 700 watts? just something that is powerful enough that has some freeway to it so I don't have to turn it up very far...
By the way, I still didn't understand a lot of the suggestions and telling me which input to put a cord in and to take it to that input would help a lot more... I'm from the old days when all we had was three adjustments and power....
Richard
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I had a spiritual awakening...or a music awakening....
OK... Now... If I plug the bass into the FX-1 input AND plug the high from the FX-1 into the input for the bass of the first amp AND then plug the low from the FX-1 into the input on the front of the 2nd amp and then plug the regular 2 cabinets into the two regular amps I have finally Bi amped!!!!
It's just really complicated to understand how to do it with a power amp from the rear, or to do it from a single amp since it's kind of almost worthless unless I want more preamp to an amp with preamp already! like a pedal on the floor...
Ha ha.... I finally got it... Just don't understand which plugs in the rear to do it with a power head with no pre amp unless it's depicted how to do it.
Thank you!
Richard
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Hi, Richard, and welcome to the club. Here's a little Gear 101:
Most guitar and bass amp combos and heads are actually composed of a preamp and a power amp. I believe your Genz Benz 900 is is just such an amp. You can also have a separate preamp and power amp. Your F-1X is a stand alone preamp. You need to mate it to a power amp, and then to a speaker cabinet. (Although, your F-1X does have a direct out that can go straight to the PA, but let's leave that for Gear 102). On some amps with a effects loop (like your Genz Benz), you can plug into the return of the effects loop and just use the power amp section of the Genz Benz. I don't know if this would work with your Genz Benz and strongly suggest you research this before trying it so you don't fry anything. Otherwise, you will need a power amp. If you give us an idea of your budget and your playing situation, there are lots of folks around here who can advise you on your best options. Once you get it all together you will really enjoy your F-1X. It's a great preamp.
Bill, the guitar one
YES... YES.... YES.... I got it.... I kept thinking you could do a Bi (two) amp with (one/mono) amp!!!!! I could not figure that out.... Heck the Marshall ICS had all the bi amp stuff on the back but I never could figure that out either.... OK....
Now I can either get 1 power head that is split 50/50 with two sets of input/output on the back for two separate power and do that by plugging it into the FX-1 high and low and use that to Bi amp. Or get Two amps and plug those both into high/low of Fx-1 and bi amp that way...
Man... so confusing!
Is there a system to lighten 7 lbs of my Alembic Spyder or is that just as it is? Ha ha...
Richard
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Is there a system to lighten 7 lbs of my Alembic Spyder or is that just as it is? Ha ha...
You might try www.hoverharness.com - though you'd have to ask if it works with a Spyder shape. The owner is a member here, so he might pitch in on this.
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Now I can either get 1 power head that is split 50/50 with two sets of input/output on the back for two separate power and do that by plugging it into the FX-1 high and low and use that to Bi amp. Or get Two amps and plug those both into high/low of Fx-1 and bi amp that way...
Richard
The QSC PLX range of power amps are pretty light compared to crown and do exactly what you want. I bi-amped an F1-X into a PLX2402 into two cabs for a while but couldn't see any difference to running the F1-X full range output and setting the PLX to parallel input.
Graeme
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I'm with you jacko on the Bi amping I tried it a couple of times and maybe because of the venue etc I didn't really benefit from that complication. I got rid of my QSC because it was too heavy and because of that I didn't use it as much as I wanted.
RBW, if you are looking for a power amp to use with the F1-x I can recommend a Crown XLS1502 or one of the more powerful models in the XLS range which are 2u rack mount. I also have a lightweight 1U Synq 1K0 power amp which delivers 1000w bridged into 8 ohms. They also do more powerful 1U and shallow rack power amps that are light. Both brands are class D. Not as meaty soundwise as the QSC but if weight is an issue they are a decent compromise.
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Also not a fan of bi-amping after experimenting with it back in the 80s. The newer full-range cabinets you can buy now really eliminate the need.
For a lightweight power amp you could also consider the Crest ProLite series. So far I have had a good a experience with the ProLite 3.0, plenty of power on board and only 13lbs in a 2u rack size. So many choices for good lightweight bass equipment these days.
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I use a QSC-GX7 with either a F-2B or a F-1X, sounds great, and amp and preamp fit in a three-rack case for easy transport.
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Also not a fan of bi-amping after experimenting with it back in the 80s. The newer full-range cabinets you can buy now really eliminate the need.
For a lightweight power amp you could also consider the Crest ProLite series. So far I have had a good a experience with the ProLite 3.0, plenty of power on board and only 13lbs in a 2u rack size. So many choices for good lightweight bass equipment these days.
I'm a big fan of the Prolite 3.0. It sounds really good (I've used Crown, QSC, and most of the other major brands).
However, I'm now down the Bass Block. 4lbs and way more power than I need. It interfaces really well with an Alembic pre. For multiple dissimilar cabinets I might bring out the Crest again, but it's hard to beat traveling so light.
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Thank for the recommendations!
I got a couple of the new Orange OB1 300's and I'll be putting the 'stuff' together probably tomorrow if the other one gets here. I'll let you know... I still remember Entwistle and his 'Stramp' for doing the same... His later years music was really not my style, too much effects, but I still love the bins, the 412lh's and his finding ways to split and USE the different hi/low to sound fantastic... Who knows... I have only to try...
Richard
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Didn't get it. If you already have your preamp, why buying full amps like Orange? Wouldn't be better and more affordable geting just 2 power amps or even one stereo with independant channels?
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The Quilter Bass Block 800 Edwin mentioned is just ridiculous. There is no way that little thing could provide me with the power I need. It's impossible, it just could not suffice...(keep repeating to self over and over again especially when I'm lugging my 30 plus lb Yamaha power amp places). ;)
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I don't like the form factor of the Quilter bass block and have no interest in the type of preamp controls it has. I know you can use just the power section but if I am going to bring a rack mounted preamp to use with the bass block I prefer to have a rack mounted power amp, too. Seems like a great and well-liked product, though, and I can see why it is popular. There are certainly a ton of good class D options for lightweight power amps these days and no need to lug something heavy unless you want to.
RBW, I am also curious why you don't just get a power amp to run with your F1-X? I am a huge fan of Entwistle's playing but agree with you that the sound of his bass through all the effects he was using late in his career was awful. IMO the best stage sound he ever had was in the 70s when he was playing Alembic basses.
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Didn't get it. If you already have your preamp, why buying full amps like Orange? Wouldn't be better and more affordable geting just 2 power amps or even one stereo with independant channels?
OK.. got the idea of simply a power head, but the OB1 300's are really just that unless you want to blend which is after the preamp. I was hoping I could adjust the sound to each cabinet before I plug them into the FX -1 though I could've made a mistake with what you're saying.... I was hoping to be able to adjust each amp to each cabinet when I do the bi amping? Isn't this possible by using the Fx -1 or is that basically the preamp that I'll be using for both? It will still work but I get what you're trying to tell me...
I just had the Ashdown JE 1000 I could've used for that I guess... I guess I couldn't quite figure out the idea.... hmmm... Was Entwistle using that 'Stramp' as really his preamp or something, I just figured he was trying to get each hi sound and lo sound that he wanted from the Sunn Coliseums and they putting them through slaves to increase the power and using the Stramp to split them and make them stereo?
Told you I'm lacking in tech...
Richard
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I think I may have wasted a lot of money on two OB1 -300's by thinking that I could get the sound I wanted on hi and on low and then use them both with the FX-1! I'm starting to think that the only adjusting will be from the Fx -1 as the preamp... is that right?
Thanks,
Well, I learn by moving on... The Orange OB!-300 sounds great already... can I do anything to split the hi and low and adjust them individually?
Richard
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Don't get me wrong, any amp is a tool and wasn't trying to criticize your quest. I know Entwhistle concoted some complex gear setups over the years and I'm not really savvy about those (in fact I don't even like using multiple cabinets myself and gave up using crossovers and bi amping for years now). Maybe Orange can fit nicely in the pursue of that Ox's distorted tone because I believe FX1 is not intended to solely overdrive that much. I just tend to avoid stacking eq section over another eq ection, that is why I've questioned.
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On other hand, some guys here are really experts on him and his gear. It may be usefull doing some research on old threads...
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OK.. got the idea of simply a power head, but the OB1 300's are really just that unless you want to blend which is after the preamp. I was hoping I could adjust the sound to each cabinet before I plug them into the FX -1 though I could've made a mistake with what you're saying.... I was hoping to be able to adjust each amp to each cabinet when I do the bi amping? Isn't this possible by using the Fx -1 or is that basically the preamp that I'll be using for both? It will still work but I get what you're trying to tell me...
Told you I'm lacking in tech...
Richard
Richard, when we think about a Guitar (or Bass) Amp, in fact we are talking about a combined preamp section followed by a power amp.
The first one is intended to raise your bass signal up to amp's standards and usualy offers a Eq section, so is here where you level your Bass and shape your tone (distorting, if you will). After that you send this signal to the Power section* to pump it up enough to move a loudspeakers at the cabinet. So, here is where you basically define the final loudness, but it matters to tone, too, as you can push tube power amps into overdrive and combine with preamp saturation to get some expressive distorted tones. So, any amp really are Preamp + Power Amp.
* Some guitar amps also enables you to get the preamp signal and send it to an outboard gear, like delays or reverbs, to get the processed signal back just before delivering it to the power amp.
So, when you get the FX1, you get a clean tube preamp with 3 band Eq. It has a effect send/return and 3 outputs, one full range that you can feed one single mono power amp and two splited outs, if you wish to send lows aparted from the highs to two power amps (2 mono or one with 2 channels, like in a stereo amp).
ps.: Forgive me if I sound "professoral", my english is poor and I hope that I'm not getting you wrong. Please, my intention is just to help you and don't want to bother you teaching basics.
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It sounds like you now have a Genz Benz, Ashdown, a couple of Orange amps, and an F-1X. I’m not sure what you have for cabs. I think you could probably find what you need by pairing the F-1X with a power amp. But, rather than spend more money, it might be good to take a little time, a month or two, to explore various combinations with what you have and see what you come up with in terms of tone. It takes a while to find the tone you want, and then fine tune it (which in itself seems to be a never ending process...”searching for the sound...”).
There is a Who tribute band that practices in the room next to ours (which can be a challenge when trying to rehearse jazz tunes with the melodies of The Who thundering through the walls :) ) and the bass sounds great. I’ll ask him what his set up is.
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So, consider that FX1 needs some power amp companion. They can be tube or solid state. Tube are great for tone since they can sound very clean but also can be overdriven to give us the beneffit of harmonic enhancement and some kind of compression. The "problem" is tube amps usually not excell 200 Watts power, while you can get thousands with a solid state amp.
This is a important choice to make, because solid state amps have the power but some may lack those tone qualities at different degrees (some FET amps can react similar but how close is controversial). For live acts at large venues it may be obligatory, though.
Another thing to consider is distortion since we are talking about the Ox and the FX1 is more on the clean side of the tube spectrum (as far I recolect, I don't own one). So I imagine you'll have to get a device to distort the bass signal or to push FX1 tubes into overdrive, like a pedal before.
And here is where I stop because distorted tones are very personal, there are several ways to get it (fuzz, distortion, overdrives, boosters, preamps and even power amps) and they tend to kill lows (that is why bass pedals enables to mix the dry signal to the processed). Chris Squire and Geddy Lee used Rick's individual PU outputs to send the bridge pickup to a guitar amp while sending the neck one to a bass amp, to get the drive with no low end loss. With the FX1 you can try distort only the highs sending them to the Orange, you just need to know if the crossover output matches the OB1 preamp input, since it may be too hot and the Orange doesn't has independent power amp input (in fact, that model have solid state power amp so you couldn't beneffit from its preamp overdriven tube tone, anyway), but you can use the double output your bass has, too. You just need a Y cable.
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Well, I learn by moving on... The Orange OB!-300 sounds great already... can I do anything to split the hi and low and adjust them individually?
Richard
OB1 seems to have a line out, so you can try getting the signal and send it to a crossover. You will still need the power amps...
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I'm with Rob, you already have some fine amps at your disposal (that Ashdown looks perfect to your needs and those Orange must sound great too) but the harder part is to learn how to master Alembic's huge tonal range. That takes time and we all had to spent some nights fiddling and researching before feeling confident. I'm cool with the fact that I'm still learning what I can do with my Rogue and seems that it will go on and on. May sounds silly but I'm geting convinced my Alembic teaches me new things anytime I let it, everytime I'm ready for a new lesson... Ha! now I'm really digressing, sorry.
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I think you are getting confused with terminology. Your Orange, Genz-Benz and Ashdown integrated heads contain both a preamp and power amplifier components in a single unit. The F1-X is strictly a preamp and requires a separate power amp or power amps if you wish to use the crossover.
If you did not want to use the tone controls in an integrated head some will let you use a separate preamp by being able to plug into a line in or effects return. Both of these usually insert the signal after the built in tone controls. Some heads like your OB1-300 do not have either of these so should not be used with a preamp like the F1-X as they just won't play well together do to signal levels and the effect of multiple tone stacks. For a preamp like the F1-X I like to use QSC PLX (now PLX2) amplifiers. They aren't too heavy and due to having two discrete power sections are very flexible since they can be run in stereo, parallel input (mono input, each output to own speakers) or bridged mode for more power (mono). If I were to use an FX-1 in a bi-amp setup I would run the amplifier in stereo with one side of the power amp receiving the highs and the other side of the amp receiving the lows. Whether it would work for you depends a lot upon the speaker systems you use.
Based on what I read about the OB1 it is not a true bi-amp head so you will not be able to take the input signal and have the highs sent to one speaker cabinet and lows to the other. What the OB1 does to route the input signal to two different internal tone shaping circuits and blend them back together before feeding them to the power amp stage. I would equate it to working more like an effects loop. Moving to the stereo bass question from your other thread. Since you have two OB1's and I presume two speaker cabinets as well you might wish to try using those with your bass in stereo. From my experience this had much better results than a bi-amp setup. This setup would allow you to set the tone for each individual pickup and mix a bit of grit in with the bridge pickup as Mario discussed in one of his updates. Another bassist who has used a guitar amp to get some grit from the bridge pickup was Stanley Clarke. I think it would also let you get some of the Entwistle tone if that is what you are looking for.
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O.K.
Now I bought the Crest Audio FA901 BUT... there are no 1/4" inputs in this!!! How on earth do I connect my power head to the FX - 1?
Any takers on that one?
Thanks,
Richard
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I use these with my power amp xlr to mono jack leads
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Male-XLR-to-2-x-6-35mm-1-4-Mono-Jack-Twin-Lead-Audio-Signal-Patch-Cable-/272084443134?var=&hash=item0 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Male-XLR-to-2-x-6-35mm-1-4-Mono-Jack-Twin-Lead-Audio-Signal-Patch-Cable-/272084443134?var=&hash=item0)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qPEAAOSwP~tW2cRp/s-l1600.jpg)
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I use a similar cable to connect my F-1X to a Crown XLS 2000, I forget the brand, but should be commercially available at any decent pro-audio shop.
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One thing to verify before you purchase the adapter cables is that the TS connector tip goes to Pin 3 on the XLR. Based on the pictures I saw of your Crest the silk screen calls out Pin 3 as hot (+). This is different from the current standard of pin 2 hot that most cables would be wired for.
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Hi Everyone,
OK... here's the layout. I have started playing in the 70's when I got merely lucky and used a pawn shop 4001 rick and a marshall JCM 800 2403 which is really guitar but in those days it sounded fantastic! I found a sound... Years later I started to play again and went though all the 'new' stuff ie. GK, Genz Benz, Ampeg, Ashdown 500 and the JE 1-000 with the power head going with that... weighed 75 lbs... NO WAY...
They I discovered that all the cabinets 8x10 ashdown, ampeg, Marshall, EBS, and Gallien Krueger 4x12, and on and on...
Nothing really had any REAL sound no matter how much I adjusted the bass, treble, middle, EQ's because they all had gain, drive, presence, boost, etc, always before preamp. Even Marshall 400 still has no sound without the gain going...
That is not sound!! Entwistle with biamping has sound.... Yes has sound.... Rush has sound...
So I tried the Sansamp, Tech 21, but I was in a band for a year and a half and we played terrible lynyrd Skynrd, Almand brothers, Blue oyster, and basically way too many southern rock songs that because of all the 'cooks' I honestly don't believe we ever learned the songs, merely more of them to play in bars.
Couldn't do it anymore. I want to hear a song played like the song I love and that takes work! I don't want to be famous I just want to play what I hear and what they wrote. No more southern songs... even though I still love That smell, and needle in the spoon, and a few more because there is BASS in it!!!
Then I got some older Sunn Concert, Coliseum, 200s, and the 2x15 cabinets.. it's impossible to even get the Bins, or the 18" cerwin vegas that he used since even Ashdown won't really sell them...
Now I am good enough to actually look at Entwistle and BEGIN to understand that he was bi amping and doing a lot more even in the 60's with Marshall... Sunn, Hywatt, .... and on...
Now I finally have some really Entwistle type bass guitars... even my inexpensive Dean Hydro sounds great for the Entwistle sound! I am slowly learning my Alembic. I lowered the strings today and am simply waiting to do the neck and intonation... I am new at this!!!!
I just happened to get two of the Orange OB1 - 300's because I was mistakenly going to use them to put through the Fx - 1 simply by not really understanding the pre amp in the Fx - 1. However the Orange OB1 is suprisingly fantastic! It's the only amp with the gain and blend AFTER the preamp so it's sounds actually bi amp!
Now I found the Crest power head through ebay and am waiting for that but the Crest has no 1/4" outputs or inputs on it for that matter so I'll have to figure out how to make wires that I can use on THAT!!!!
Heck even my USA Fender Jaguar sounds pretty damn good through the Orange OB1 - 300!
But, I cannot 'Tap' Mississippi Queen or Needle in the Spoon so I am turning around at 180 degrees and I'm trying the best I can! Entwistle did not play, nor probably could he with tapping on those songs, so I'm having to change and play gently and carefully and do everything differently... It's great but it's also frustrating.... I finally realized even with my quickness I couldn't play my generation the way I'm used to playing, even fast since that's not how he was playing it... there's no way to hear all the articulation sliding my hand and plucking... it's amazing how he played and it's not something to even learn in years but I'm trying..
Anyway, I appreciate all the help, and I guess I'll call Mica and ask if she can take a picture of the Crest and the wires she has it attached to the Fx-1 and have a friend of mine in texas make me some wires since I am clueless to connecting the power head to the Fx - 1 and then to the cabinets since I am used to the 1/4" or twist on's for the modern stuff.
Oh well... practice every day and learn what I can...
Have a great day!
Richard