Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: glocke on December 19, 2018, 01:38:54 AM
-
Hopefully someone here plays this tune and knows it well...
I like to think I've got a pretty good grasp on a lot of the Deads catalog, even what some would consider some of the more challenging tunes but this one has always been a struggle for me and frankly I think it's probably one of the more (for me probably the most) difficult song they play that was ever in regular rotation.
This one is coming into rotation for one of the bands I play in and I just got done spending some time with it, comparing what Im hearing on different recorded versions to what others have written down as the changes.
I've written in red on the sheet below what Im hearing...Can someone chime in and tell me if they are hearing something different? The biggest thing that Im noticing is that during the end of the solo part a lot of people have three full measures of the D chord written in, where as I am only hearing two full measures...
Its also mind boggling to me how in the break someone has the chordal movement going from A-D when its clearly C#-D...
-
Hey, in the beginning who ever wrote this wasn't sure if he counted half speed or double speed. I would write it like this.
I think it's this: check D/F# chord and then on second bar two chords (thirds) A and C# note and G and B note (so you get Amaj chord and Gmaj) (that goes where I bold the chord names in bars)
| G D/F# | A G | D | D | A | A | A | A |
And in the end you are right he plays C#, but I think I hear also Amaj cord over C# (no sure), sometimes that's written as A/C# or A3.
Sorry, but my english is second language, so be nice to me if I said something wrong :)
hope this helps a bit
Goran
-
Actually funny to me it sounds like this, the beginning
one bar of 4/4, one bar of 2/4, one bar of 6/4, and then one bar of 4/4 before first | A | bar
but that my weird head :)
-
I think the chart is all kinds of weird. It's not consistent as to whether it's in cut time or not. You are right about the number of measures at the end of the solos but you have to make sure that the D hits on beat 3 prior to the last two bars and then has two full measures (or, as I count it, beat 4 with a full measure after that, counting in cut time). I think it's one of those songs where you just have to count it with the recordings until you get it down and decide for yourself whether you are going to count in cut time or not. The thing that always turns people around is that the D chord comes on beat four (in cut time) in much of the song.
-
I think the chart is all kinds of weird. It's not consistent as to whether it's in cut time or not. You are right about the number of measures at the end of the solos but you have to make sure that the D hits on beat 3 prior to the last two bars and then has two full measures (or, as I count it, beat 4 with a full measure after that, counting in cut time). I think it's one of those songs where you just have to count it with the recordings until you get it down and decide for yourself whether you are going to count in cut time or not. The thing that always turns people around is that the D chord comes on beat four (in cut time) in much of the song.
thanks...actually listening to this more it sounds like on the last measure of the solo sections it resolves to A on beat 3..most of the time anyway lol...I find one or two versions where that does not happen 100% of the time.
Its a really tricky tune and I've never seen a G.D. cover band do this one without out it devolving into a train wreck. The guys Im currently playing this wanted to try this one without a rehearsal also lol..
-
One of my favorite GD tunes; loved it from the first time I heard it on Wake Of The Flood. I've never played it, but I imagine that beyond learning the parts it's one of those tunes that could be difficult for a band to get the feel right.
-
Here's the version we did a few years ago with Melvin Seals sitting in. Starfire with the caramel pickups.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mh4zrbj2c37gwq1/Row%20Jimmy_1.mp3?dl=0
-
Loved it, Edwin!
-
Recently I did a series of shows where we covered Aoxomoxoa and Live/DEAD with Tom Constanten. There's some crazy bass stuff in there!
-
Here's the version we did a few years ago with Melvin Seals sitting in. Starfire with the caramel pickups.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mh4zrbj2c37gwq1/Row%20Jimmy_1.mp3?dl=0
that was awesome...
what part of the country do you gig in?
-
Mostly Colorado. That was from the Fox Theater in Boulder. Every now and then the west coast (probably coming up this February).
-
Very nice, Edwin. I'm in Denver for the holidays; you gigging?
Peter
-
I've been going over this one for the past couple of days - first time trying to play it. First, I played along with it a couple of times, then listened while reading along with your chart. Finally figured out - I've been hearing it wrong all these years! I heard bars of 6/4 (or you could say extra bars of 2/4), but when I counted along with your chart discovered it works best just counting 4/4 the whole way through! I think it's because it goes back to the tonic early in several sections, and I always started feeling the beat starting over there, but you have to just count it as beats 3 & 4 instead of reverting to 1 & 2. I still can't play it right though!
I also think you are right about it going back to the A during the lead. And I thought your corrections were right, except I also think that there is an extra bar of A in the intro that shouldn't be there. (though that could also be related to the way they were playing it in '77 - I was listening to the original studio version) What an interesting song! I wonder if they had charts when they learned/recorded it?
-
Here is the music as published by Ice Nine...
-
Very nice, Edwin. I'm in Denver for the holidays; you gigging?
Peter
I'm at the Fox in Boulder on 12/29, covering 12/29/1977. Let me know if you're going to come down and I'll see about a guest list spot.
-
I just played along with the WOTF version. I agree with Harry that it is in 4/4, except between the end of the verse and the chorus is a cut measure (2/4). Also, there is a cut (2/4) measure at the end of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of the bridge.
It's funny how I've heard this song so many times that I know how it goes, but when I start counting in my head, it seems weird!
Bill, tgo
-
I just played along with the WOTF version. I agree with Harry that it is in 4/4, except between the end of the verse and the chorus is a cut measure (2/4). Also, there is a cut (2/4) measure at the end of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of the bridge.
It's funny how I've heard this song so many times that I know how it goes, but when I start counting in my head, it seems weird!
Bill, tgo
Its funny...going back and listening to it again Im not hearing the 2/4 measures you are talking about, but I think I am hearing/feeling them in other places as counting 4/4 all the way through the tune doesn't exactly feel right, so Im sure they are there, Im just feeling them in different spots. Than again I haven't gotten to the WOTF version yet, only live versions from the 70's and some Dead and Co. versions. I'll probably sit down with WOTF later today
By bridge, you mean what's listed as the "Thats the way it's been in town " part? If so Im not really able to feel anything in 2/4 there either.
It is really an odd tune, and even after spending more time on it I still find it to be the most difficult and challenging Dead tune I've played. What seems to confound the issue also is that there are live versions by the G.D. out there that have what sound like mistakes in them but the band handles them fairly well and they end up sounding intentional (almost).
I think the vast majority of G.D. tunes people can walk up onto a stage and play unrehearsed, but this one is really a tune that everyone in the band has to have a pretty firm understanding of if they want to pull it off well.
I'd have love to have been a fly on the wall when Garcia and everyone else were in the studio working this one up. I wonder how much of its uniqueness/strangeness is from them just doing something because it sounded like a cool thing to do v.s. it being something well thought out.
I'm really half tempted to send this one off to one of those professional transcription services to see what they come up with...
-
We're heading home 12/30 about 0600, so probably not. Phooey.
Peter
-
OK, I'm listening again and following along with the music - this song is messed up!!! The drums get turned around at the end of the first solo, and then keep playing backwards almost until the next chorus. I think that's what's messed up! Yeah, it happens on the second solo too. It's almost like the harmony musicians are playing straight through the chart but Bill Kreutzmann gets off track because of those times when the tonic comes back two beats earlier than you expect. There are extra 4/4 measures here and there, but it only sounds like measures of 2/4 - or at least that's what I think right now.
Listening to Cornell 5/8/77, they drummers play it "right" - I think what Bill Kreutzmann plays on the original studio version is that he follows the way it seems it might go, restarting the counting when the tonic comes back in two beats earlier than it seems like it should, and that's the way I've always heard it. A subtle, deceptively difficult and deceptively easy at the same time, tune!
-
Feels like 4/4 all the way through to me. I think they are all pretty sure of where things are so they play the stuff that's not obvious. Which makes it sound like the beat is in various places. Part of playing with the continuous "one".
-
I vaguely remember mention of the continuous one, searched the web briefly but could not find anything. Do you know where I can read dab out it?
-
Feels like 4/4 all the way through to me. I think they are all pretty sure of where things are so they play the stuff that's not obvious. Which makes it sound like the beat is in various places. Part of playing with the continuous "one".
I went back and listened to the WOTF version as well as some Dead & Co. versions. Both are little more "coherent" and sound a little better thought out to me than any of the G.D. live versions (and as I eluded to earlier, some of those contain what sound like errors on the bands part that they recover well from, which I think leads to further confusion), and I think it's in 4/4 as well. Im not hearing any bars of 2/4 in WOTF or Dead and Co.
Edwin, can you elaborate on what exactly you mean by the "continuous one" ? Thats something that sounds pretty esoteric. Are you inferring that the band was basically just throwing the "one" down in random locations and the band as a whole had the ability to sense this and somehow made that work?
-
Gloke, I think that’s the basis of it, especially for live 70s versions of tunes like Dark Star, Playin’ in the Band, Weather Report Suite, The Other One, etc. I think I recall Lesh or Hart describing it, but I don’t remember where I read it.
-
In the documiniseries Long Strange Trip, Billy says "I'm probably the worst drummer in the world for keeping the beat. But I'm great at keeping the feel!" Or something close to that.
Peter
-
Apparently there was a quote by one of the band members that went along the lines of:
Question: “Where’s the one?”
Answer: “It’ll get here eventually.. you’ll know it when you hear it..”
They've all talked about how the one becomes a continuous now. Of course, I think some of that is being cute, as they all seem pretty capable of keeping track of it while the actual playing gets pretty abstract. But in the jam parts of the songs Rob points out, the one can become a matter of perspective, with multiple perspectives happening at once. In learning how to do that, it's worth spending some time with polyrhythms and playing over the bar line, which can be a disorienting thing for bass players, who are generally so used to marking the beats regularly. If you start thinking of longer lines that go over bar lines and delay the obvious resolutions, it makes the music, especially the jams, a lot more interesting. Having a drummer like Billy helps, but any drummer who is familiar with odd times and the playing of Elvin Jones and similar drumming perspectives arrives at the same place.
I think the GD's skill at these things was the result of long practice and the willingness in the early years to take the risks and have the whole thing fly off the rails every now and then. It's a hard thing to catch up to if you don't get to rehearse a lot and gig a lot in front of a forgiving audience.
-
Just wanted to pop in and say how much I have enjoyed this thread.
Now, if someone can please explain "Estimated Prophet" to me in a similar fashion.. ;D
-
Just wanted to pop in and say how much I have enjoyed this thread.
Now, if someone can please explain "Estimated Prophet" to me in a similar fashion.. ;D
Well, to start, it's in 7/8.
I'm not nearly versed enough in theory to confirm or deny this (or even it's possibility), but I once read there were times they each played in a different time signature, in such a way that the band as a whole sounded in 4/4.
Peter
-
Estimated is in 7. I don't think they played in different time signatures (my old band, Shockra, used to do that, with my favorite being 11 against 13) but they did play with various combinations of 3 and 4 to make the tune swing in different ways. It took a long time for me to really get the bass part because I kept trying to play 3-4, when it's really 4-3 for the verses. I'm sure the drummers played 4/4 through most of it more than once.
-
According to the "official" Dead Anthology Estimated is alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4. I always think of it as 7. But since the main phrases are 14 beats long the easiest way to count it is three bars of four followed by one bar of two... It doesn't really matter how you count since it is all about getting a feel for the length of the cycle. Fun tune to play as is Row Jimmy!
-
And then there's "The Eleven".
Bill, tgo
-
According to the "official" Dead Anthology Estimated is alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4. I always think of it as 7. But since the main phrases are 14 beats long the easiest way to count it is three bars of four followed by one bar of two... It doesn't really matter how you count since it is all about getting a feel for the length of the cycle. Fun tune to play as is Row Jimmy!
I always counted it as seven, I've heard other people call it repeating bars of 3/4 or 4/4 which never made sense to me as that adds up to 7. Edwins comment about breaking it up like that makes it swing different is interesting but Im not sure how that works, I'll have to go back and listen to that one and count it as 4/4 and 3/4.
It took me a shorter period of time to "get" Estimated than it did Row Jimmy. With Estimated, it just clicked after awhile..Row Jimmy not so much, at least not yet. What helped me a lot with EP was to just play it with a metronome, no music.
I really need to find people outside of my band to play these tunes with..We probably gig twice a month on average, but we never rehearse and we never really work these tunes out the way they should be worked out. We more or less just plow through them like a bull in a china shop unfortunately.
-
If I ever get able to go out and play again, I'd like to find some local guys (and girls?) that wanted to do a Grateful Dead music thing. I've been getting a little bit of it with my newgrass gig the past few years, but even those guys won't tackle some of the more challenging time sigs. (in fairness, they probably wouldn't work too well in our format) But I have believed for a while now, I could do it if someone on drums pushed me. Usually once something is in my head, I can play it. I've found GD music to be very improvisational, and open to interpretation, much like the bluegrass and oldtyme music I grew up playing. Obviously that wouldn't be true if one were trying to replicate exactly a show from this or that date. Still, there is room to breathe.
Lofty goal for 2019... or maybe 2020 is more realistic.
-
Estimated is in 7. I don't think they played in different time signatures (my old band, Shockra, used to do that, with my favorite being 11 against 13) but they did play with various combinations of 3 and 4 to make the tune swing in different ways. It took a long time for me to really get the bass part because I kept trying to play 3-4, when it's really 4-3 for the verses. I'm sure the drummers played 4/4 through most of it more than once.
Looking back at my post, I see it was unclear; the multiple-times-equaling-4/4 was not in reference to "EP"; I seem to recall it being in reference to jamming in general.
Sorry for the confusion.
Peter (who is currently being told he should step away from the keyboard and be sociable - and the grandkids are pretty darn cute, so....later, folks)
-
In his book, Bill Kreutzman describes the Row Jimmy beat:
"Jerry brought 'Row Jimmy' into us one day, and it was really difficult to get a grip on it at first. It has a slow tempo, which makes it seem like it would be easy, but it calls for a slight reggae groove layered over a ballad. Rhythmically, the lengths aren't traditional. They're not just twos and fours. It's deceiving. Basically, you have to play the song in half-time with a double-time bounce on top. It's trickier than it sounds. But once I locked into it, 'Row Jimmy' became one of the best songs in our repertoire."
That excerpt is on wikipedia, but i think there was more detail in the book (Deal).
-
In his book, Bill Kreutzman describes the Row Jimmy beat:
"Jerry brought 'Row Jimmy' into us one day, and it was really difficult to get a grip on it at first. It has a slow tempo, which makes it seem like it would be easy, but it calls for a slight reggae groove layered over a ballad. Rhythmically, the lengths aren't traditional. They're not just twos and fours. It's deceiving. Basically, you have to play the song in half-time with a double-time bounce on top. It's trickier than it sounds. But once I locked into it, 'Row Jimmy' became one of the best songs in our repertoire."
That excerpt is on wikipedia, but i think there was more detail in the book (Deal).
Interesting...admittedly Im not really sure what he means when he says "Rhythmically, the lengths aren't traditional. They're not just twos and fours"...is he talking about measures of 2 and measures 4 here?
We tried running through this in rehearsal last night in anticipation of playing it on NYE. Thats probably not going to happen..6 different people in the room with six different ideas of how the goes. The lead guitar player and I were on the same page thankfully though so hopefully in the future it will be thrown into rotation
-
I've run into similar issues with Wharf Rat. The beats between lines change.. Some lines have an extra measure before the next vocal line starts, some don't. Until everyone is confidant about the timing, it's easy for that one to derail. Anther one I've found to have subtle timing issues is Uncle John's Band.
Bill, tgo
-
I've run into similar issues with Wharf Rat. The beats between lines change.. Some lines have an extra measure before the next vocal line starts, some don't. Until everyone is confidant about the timing, it's easy for that one to derail. Anther one I've found to have subtle timing issues is Uncle John's Band.
Bill, tgo
The immortal Samuel John Hopkins once defended that sort of playing with "Lightnin' change when Lightnin' wanna change!" J.L. Hooker was known for it, too - but not so many people do it as group thing.
Peter
-
Individually, Bob Dylan and John Prine are shining examples of "I'll sing the next line when I'm good and ready. Might be now, might be in a measure or two"!
Bill, tgo
-
In Tom Lehrer's Folk Song Army ( there's this line:
The tune don't have to be clever
And it don't matter if you put a couple extra syllables into a line
It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English
And it don't even gotta rhyme... excuse me: rhyne!
-
I've run into similar issues with Wharf Rat. The beats between lines change.. Some lines have an extra measure before the next vocal line starts, some don't. Until everyone is confidant about the timing, it's easy for that one to derail. Anther one I've found to have subtle timing issues is Uncle John's Band.
Bill, tgo
I brought that point up one time with the guys over "Uncle John's Band", that we all needed to agree beforehand on when and where to stretch the measures. I spent a good 15 minutes trying to make my case that the eye-contact thing only works for those up front. (I can't see them from my place in back...) Eventually we just did like a timing auto-correct on the whole tune to keep it workable. Some may disagree, but I don't think it takes that much away from that particular tune. I may feel differently about a different one more dependent upon the extra measures for identitity.
-
I've run into similar issues with Wharf Rat. The beats between lines change.. Some lines have an extra measure before the next vocal line starts, some don't. Until everyone is confidant about the timing, it's easy for that one to derail. Anther one I've found to have subtle timing issues is Uncle John's Band.
Bill, tgo
I brought that point up one time with the guys over "Uncle John's Band", that we all needed to agree beforehand on when and where to stretch the measures. I spent a good 15 minutes trying to make my case that the eye-contact thing only works for those up front. (I can't see them from my place in back...) Eventually we just did like a timing auto-correct on the whole tune to keep it workable. Some may disagree, but I don't think it takes that much away from that particular tune. I may feel differently about a different one more dependent upon the extra measures for identitity.
I never really noticed the extra measures, but I always thought there was something funny going on in UJB...Any time I ever played it with anyone nothing was ever discussed in terms of the arrangement, but it always ended up sounding a little off compared to what I was hearing on the recording.
Also, Cold Rain and Snow is another one that has a wonky lead section. I forget exactly what it is thats going on ( I have charted out somewhere), but the first lead is different than whats happening in both the verses and the lead sections that follow it.
It's really starting to bum me out that the guys I play with don't work these things out more..
-
Well, just to stretch things a little, "El Paso" has one half-verse in the middle; not as significant as the other examples, but it still throws my lame "chops" off a little. On the upside, I pretty much just do the WG2 thing, so I'm not messing anybody else up.
Peter
-
I've run into similar issues with Wharf Rat. The beats between lines change.. Some lines have an extra measure before the next vocal line starts, some don't. Until everyone is confidant about the timing, it's easy for that one to derail. Anther one I've found to have subtle timing issues is Uncle John's Band.
Bill, tgo
I brought that point up one time with the guys over "Uncle John's Band", that we all needed to agree beforehand on when and where to stretch the measures. I spent a good 15 minutes trying to make my case that the eye-contact thing only works for those up front. (I can't see them from my place in back...) Eventually we just did like a timing auto-correct on the whole tune to keep it workable. Some may disagree, but I don't think it takes that much away from that particular tune. I may feel differently about a different one more dependent upon the extra measures for identitity.
That song seems pretty consistent to me. The songbooks I've seen seem to have it right. Once you get it down, no need for eye contact for the beginning of the verses.
-
So this song is coming up in our setlist for this Friday, and while going over it I remembered this discussion I started about it.
Still such an odd tune. I just got done listening to a bunch of versions from 1974 as we are doing a show from that year, and it sounds like the GD wasn't even sure how to play it back than as the harmonic movement was different on several of the versions I listened to, some of them were resolving to the tonic in different spots during the solos.
Edwin, listened to your version again last night..Still sounds great. Seems like your drummer is emphasizing the 3rd beat to help keep everyone in place.