Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: glocke on September 15, 2018, 07:55:44 AM
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No idea what happened...In the middle of the first song of the first set the whole rig went out.
Eden head is dead. I swapped out the fuse just a few moments ago and started it up and it immediately blew.
Cabinet is shot now as well, I tried a different head and it sounds like only one driver is working and thats distorted as heck.
Now I need to scramble around for a new cab and will probably end up with something I don't really want.
You can see by the photo that I really wasn't driving this all that hard, the amp was in bridged mono mode but still...
(https://images.talkbass.com/attachments/fc708e38-686c-44db-aac8-b1b7e1383fd3-jpeg.3150326/)
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The power conditioner should have caught a power surge from the venue wiring. My guess would be bridge mode.
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Oh, man. I am really sorry to hear that, glocke.
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The power conditioner should have caught a power surge from the venue wiring. My guess would be bridge mode.
Not sure I understand. Are you saying that by running it in bridged mode i may have caused things to blow up?
I've got spare heads here, but need to look around for a cabinet. I've got a single 15" Bag End, but I generally like to use 2x15's or 2x12's. Local shops all seem to have 4x10's. not really familiar with that setup, are 4x10's as warm and "big sounding" as a 2x12 or 2x15?
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I've got spare heads here, but need to look around for a cabinet. I've got a single 15" Bag End, but I generally like to use 2x15's or 2x12's. Local shops all seem to have 4x10's. not really familiar with that setup, are 4x10's as warm and "big sounding" as a 2x12 or 2x15?
No, they aren't.
4 10" air columns cannot give you the same depth (or physical impact) as even 1 15" column. I know a lot of people like them, but I wouldn't use 10s for bass unless they were on top of a/some 15(s) or 18(s). Or, for that matter, a 21........
I'd say go with the Bag End until you can find a 2X15 you like.
And Dave's right, with a conditioner to rule out a surge, the problem is probably later in the rig. I don't think bridging would blow your fuses, but I'm thinking something's not quite right in the Eden (assuming the SF-2 is in an effects loop; if it's in the signal chain before the Eden, it might need diagnosed, as well).
Peter (who must join the general feeling that this drinks through a straw with great force. Sorry, man.)
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Thanks Peter.
Anyone have any thoughts on Aguilar 2x12’s? Or bergantino?
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Glocke,
Sorry about the rig. I have a Berg CN212 that kicks like a mule while sounding really good. Bergantino has since updated this model to
a HDN212. Less than 50 lbs! Also Bareface makes great light cabs in the UK
Good time to be Bassist everything light and powerful.
And you could also pick up some decades old world class basses at decent coin. ;)
Peace,
Pete
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I will tell you what happened to mine Ampeg SVT3, hope that is not your case.
In the middle of the night it stoped and I had myself depending on just DI and headphones. Didn't hear anything odd, it just died. Thanks for using the amp just for the bass monitoring, it wasn't a total panic (I've just missed the old thump on chest feel). Raised the bass on phones and went on. Next day I saw the blown fuse, replaced it and tried to turn amp on to check it. After a few seconds it died again and there was a light scent of burnt plastic, not good.
It was a blown transformer, one of the most expensives parts to repair in a tube amp (specially in Brazil, since it'd need to be imported). I ended buying a new amp since repairing costs would be almost the same.
It was when I got it home to test it first time that I discovered both speakers of my cabinet were trashed, cones ripped probably when the dead amp overloaded for the last time. The sympton was a dreaded fuzz like distortion tone even at low levels. I imagine a low end pulse did it, since I didn't noticed anything at the moment, but was a real drag. Lost all my gear in a night.
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Glocke,
Sorry about the rig. I have a Berg CN212 that kicks like a mule while sounding really good. Bergantino has since updated this model to
a HDN212. Less than 50 lbs! Also Bareface makes great light cabs in the UK
Good time to be Bassist everything light and powerful.
And you could also pick up some decades old world class basses at decent coin. ;)
Peace,
Pete
Im giving serious thought to a Bergantino HDN2x12.
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I will tell you what happened to mine Ampeg SVT3, hope that is not your case.
In the middle of the night it stoped and I had myself depending on just DI and headphones. Didn't hear anything odd, it just died. Thanks for using the amp just for the bass monitoring, it wasn't a total panic (I've just missed the old thump on chest feel). Raised the bass on phones and went on. Next day I saw the blown fuse, replaced it and tried to turn amp on to check it. After a few seconds it died again and there was a light scent of burnt plastic, not good.
It was a blown transformer, one of the most expensives parts to repair in a tube amp (specially in Brazil, since it'd need to be imported). I ended buying a new amp since repairing costs would be almost the same.
It was when I got it home to test it first time that I discovered both speakers of my cabinet were trashed, cones ripped probably when the dead amp overloaded for the last time. The sympton was a dreaded fuzz like distortion tone even at low levels. I imagine a low end pulse did it, since I didn't noticed anything at the moment, but was a real drag. Lost all my gear in a night.
ugh...aside from the burnt plastic smell that sounds exactly like what happened to me.
How could a low end pulse do that? Is it possible by throwing the SF2 in there that could have caused something similar to happen to me? I didn't have it set for anything crazy.
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Sorry to hear about this... sounds like an awful experience to go through. Obviously have no way to troubleshoot for you remotely but one thing you need to be careful of with the Superfilter is the gain structure. It looks like you are running the filter gain pretty hot, the HPF would probably be okay like that but it is hard to see what mode the second filter is in. I have always avoided bridged mode after reading about people frying their gear but for others it seems to work fine. Could be something totally unrelated to any settings at the amp/filter, though. You have a thread on TalkBass that started out about problems with the DI before the amp blew so there may have been something internally going bad.
I would start by taking the amp to a tech before buying a new amp. As far as speakers if you have something you can use until you find exactly what you want that would be great. There are lots of excellent choices for bass cabinets these days. I got a couple of Barefaced cabinets with 12" drivers recently, a SuperTwin and a Big Baby 2, they sound really good and are amazingly light, very loud, respond well to EQ, and put out tons of low end while still retaining punch. Expensive and hard to find used, all their speakers are made to order so it takes a month or so to get one. When the cabs are finished they ship to the US overnight. My cabinet got to my front door in CA about 21 hours after it was shipped from the UK. The Mesa Subway cabinets are excellent, too, as are the Bergantino cabs, and at least you may be able to find them locally to audition them. So many choices worth taking the time to explore.
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Sorry to hear about this... sounds like an awful experience to go through. Obviously have no way to troubleshoot for you remotely but one thing you need to be careful of with the Superfilter is the gain structure. It looks like you are running the filter gain pretty hot, the HPF would probably be okay like that but it is hard to see what mode the second filter is in. I have always avoided bridged mode after reading about people frying their gear but for others it seems to work fine. Could be something totally unrelated to any settings at the amp/filter, though. You have a thread on TalkBass that started out about problems with the DI before the amp blew so there may have been something internally going bad.
I would start by taking the amp to a tech before buying a new amp. As far as speakers if you have something you can use until you find exactly what you want that would be great. There are lots of excellent choices for bass cabinets these days. I got a couple of Barefaced cabinets with 12" drivers recently, a SuperTwin and a Big Baby 2, they sound really good and are amazingly light, very loud, respond well to EQ, and put out tons of low end while still retaining punch. Expensive and hard to find used, all their speakers are made to order so it takes a month or so to get one. When the cabs are finished they ship to the US overnight. My cabinet got to my front door in CA about 21 hours after it was shipped from the UK. The Mesa Subway cabinets are excellent, too, as are the Bergantino cabs, and at least you may be able to find them locally to audition them. So many choices worth taking the time to explore.
Second filter was in band pass.
I've actually been looking at Barefaced cabs for awhile...Sadly I can't wait a month. Just a few minutes ago ordered a Berg HDN2x12. Hope I like it...
Was almost going to get a second BagEnd S15, and just stack 2 15" cabs, but I don't think my back would appreciate that.
Fortunately the venue had a Hartke rig and an SVT cabinet for me to use...Damn did that thing move some air, really made all the difference in the world in terms of overall playing enjoyment and band energy.
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Bummer! As the Billy Crystal character on SNL used to say, "I hate when that happens". As for the cab, why not just repair/replace the speakers?
Bill, tgo
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Hey Greg,
Now you know what caused the distorted sound you were asking about last week - it was a warning!
By your description, I think the cabinet may be the culprit. Unlikely that both cabinet and amp would simultaneously fold. But if you had a failure in the cabinet which dropped the impedance too low, like a shorted speaker cable, that would blow the amps fuse. I suppose it could also have blown the output transformer, if there is one on the Eden. But if you haven't already tried it, connect your bagend cab, replace the Eden's fuse again and see if it fires up.
Jimmy J
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Be sure you try a different speaker cable too.
JJ
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My 2 cents.
I had a Sunn amp that I was unknowingly driving the wrong (mismatched) impedance into a cabinet. The rig worked for quite sometime until we had an outdoor show with no PA, so I pushed it hard and killed the output transformer.
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Bummer! As the Billy Crystal character on SNL used to say, "I hate when that happens". As for the cab, why not just repair/replace the speakers?
Bill, tgo
Oh they'll get repaired, but its probably about a 2-3 week turn around time, and I need a cabinet next week.
But even more to the point I've been thinking of trying a new cabinet for awhile, and the lightweight neo cab were at the top of the list due to their weight (threw my back out a few weeks back during load in of the eden 2x12), followed by a fearless that is made locally to me, but those are still 70 lbs.
Hopefully the Berg will live up to the hype.
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I have two Bergantino HD112 cabs and also a Barefaced One10. You won't be disappointed with either of these companies. Top of the ladder stuff.
Glynn
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Oh they'll get repaired, but its probably about a 2-3 week turn around time, and I need a cabinet next week.
But even more to the point I've been thinking of trying a new cabinet for awhile, and the lightweight neo cab were at the top of the list due to their weight (threw my back out a few weeks back during load in of the eden 2x12), followed by a fearless that is made locally to me, but those are still 70 lbs.
Hopefully the Berg will live up to the hype.
If it's great sound with light weight you're looking for, may I point you at the fEARful 15/6/1 (http://greenboy.us/fEARful/)? I heard Edwin play through one (plus a 12/6/1) and was well and truly blown away.
Peter
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Amplifiers can melt down and if the protection circuits aren't adequate, they will take down speakers. Impossible to tell what happened here, but it could be any number of things. I had an Eden back in the day that was really unreliable and it took out a cabinet. The local techs couldn't figure out what was wrong and eventually Eden just replaced it.
As far the 10 inch speaker thing goes, I would agree except that my MAS 210 Flex is really an exception. It's much more solid than any 15" based rig I've played. But, it came with a price tag that matched. I hear the new Bodai line is as good or better. I was completely skeptical but now I'm sold. Everyone who has played through my rig concurs, including Pete Sears, Bill Laymon, and other users of classic rigs.
http://www.masoundworks.com
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Amplifiers can melt down and if the protection circuits aren't adequate, they will take down speakers. Impossible to tell what happened here, but it could be any number of things. I had an Eden back in the day that was really unreliable and it took out a cabinet. The local techs couldn't figure out what was wrong and eventually Eden just replaced it.
As far the 10 inch speaker thing goes, I would agree except that my MAS 210 Flex is really an exception. It's much more solid than any 15" based rig I've played. But, it came with a price tag that matched. I hear the new Bodai line is as good or better. I was completely skeptical but now I'm sold. Everyone who has played through my rig concurs, including Pete Sears, Bill Laymon, and other users of classic rigs.
http://www.masoundworks.com
Well, if my local techs can't figure it out I guess I'll be screwed...My Eden head is long out of warranty.
and...
another cabinet company..wow..So many choices these days it's crazy. Sadly though the only way for me to get to hear any of these is to buy and try..and sell if I don't like.
Scabbey Road is near me and they build fearful cabs, I've been meaning to get over there to check them out but just haven't had a chance.
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Sounds like your Eden sent DC to your cab while it was dying. As a tech, I hate Edens--they look like prototypes on the inside, they're notorious among techs for weird problems. I hear they're using Ice Class D modules for power amps now, so maybe the current ones are more reliable. If your Eden can be cost effectively repaired, I'd recommend finding it a new home.
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Greg, I have been a lover of 15s forever, in fact , 2-1x15s is still my rehearsal rig.
That said, live, I have been using an Acme 2x10 cab for a few years. Both bands I play in
one cab is more than enough. My dream rig would be two of these in a vertical stack, but,
as I said, only one is necessary. These cabs put out big sound, comparable to an 18, in my opinion.
The only drawback to them is that you need to hit them with a lot of wattage. I use either a 600 watt or 900
watt head, not to get loud, just they are intentionally inefficient.
The irony here is, the designer, Andy Lewis, is a drummer.
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A solid state power amp wouldn't normally have an output transformer (that output matching transformer is the heaviest part of a tube amp).
I think JimmyJ, as usual, is dead on about what happened. You've developed a short either in the speaker cable or the cabinet. The short causes the output impedance to drop and this causes much more current to flow through the output transistors in the power amp stage. Those transistors have a limit on how much heat they can dissipate, and when you exceed that, they literally burn up. When you run in bridged mode, the two amps are each amplifying half the signal, and they "see" half the output impedance, so you're already stressing the output transistors with more current.
If you were hearing fuzzy output before it failed, that was the transistors running in the danger zone and getting damaged, but not to complete failure. When they output transistors go, they may send a final burst of current/DC through to the speakers, which is how they got nuked.
If this just happened suddenly - you didn't feel it was getting progressively more distorted, then you want to look carefully at the speaker cable to make sure there's not a short there. The speaker cable and connectors are a lot more fragile than the wiring inside the cabinet.
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And make sure you are using speaker cable and not instrument cable. Instrument cable is shielded, speaker cable isn't. A crimp or other damage to an instrument cable can cause the shielding to short out which is why you don't want to use instrument cable for speakers.
Bill, tgo
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ugh...aside from the burnt plastic smell that sounds exactly like what happened to me.
How could a low end pulse do that? Is it possible by throwing the SF2 in there that could have caused something similar to happen to me? I didn't have it set for anything crazy.
I think our brothers David F and Jimmy J hit the spot. Not a SF2 fault, probably some short at the cabinet droped impedance and ruined amp's output stage or a fail at amp killed one or more speakers (which drops impedance, too). Usually a HPF circuit protects speakers from DC passing through, but when this not happens this "signal" can push the cone furhter away its limits ripping it and even burnt the coil depending on power.
Audio signal is like a AC, moving speaker cone in and outwards to reproduce sounds. DC put it fixed in a stressed extreme position they are not intended to be and that can ruin them. A proper working amp don't allows that to happen but if something bad occurs to it, the fail can harm things ahead.
You can say impedance is a sum of the ways a speaker resists to let a audio signal pass through its coil. That resistance is fixed to entire signal since a coil behaves like a resistor, but also increases with frequency because a coil is a high pass filter too. Suming that variable reactance with the fixed resistance is what its called impedance.
An amp expects to "see" some resistance from cabinet and this is what defines how much power will flow to cabinet. If the impedance drops by a cable's short or by a blown speaker, it may "asks" for more power than your amp will be able to generate, overheating the transformer (in a tube amp as David Fung pointed out) or its output transistors in a solid state amp.
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Your Eden has a solid state power stage and the good news is that they are easier (and more affordable) to replace than tube amp's massive transformers.
Good to know you've already got a new cab. I'm on neo cabs too and love my 2x10" Epifani. One can argue about their low end tightness (those cabs are ducted bass reflex and produces lows by resonance) but to me matters more being tiny and light to carry around and, to be honest, lacking lows are not a problem if you work with PA systems loaded with subs (in fact they can be overwhelming at stage sometimes).
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Sounds like your Eden sent DC to your cab while it was dying. As a tech, I hate Edens--they look like prototypes on the inside, they're notorious among techs for weird problems. I hear they're using Ice Class D modules for power amps now, so maybe the current ones are more reliable. If your Eden can be cost effectively repaired, I'd recommend finding it a new home.
Good to be aware, didn't know about that reliability issue.
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And make sure you are using speaker cable and not instrument cable. Instrument cable is shielded, speaker cable isn't. A crimp or other damage to an instrument cable can cause the shielding to short out which is why you don't want to use instrument cable for speakers.
Bill, tgo
Yeah I just ordered all new cables,...not taking any chances...the ones ive been using are probably over a decade old at least and have been through a lot. Also ordered a D800+. Was hesitant because its all solid state but i've heard such good things about it I figured I'd give it a try.
At some point I'll get a power amp like the Demeter MinneD 800 as I do want to use my 201S, and at some point hope to acquire an F1X or F2B, but thats down the road.
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If it's great sound with light weight you're looking for, may I point you at the fEARful 15/6/1 (http://greenboy.us/fEARful/)? I heard Edwin play through one (plus a 12/6/1) and was well and truly blown away.
Peter
I had a chance to try out a Fearless 2x12/6/1 last night at a Greenboy builders shop here in PA. Pretty amazing sounding cabinet. It was clear, articulate, and the low end was clear and well defined.
I already have an HDN2x12 on the way, and now I wish I would have waited another couple of days till I had a chance to try this one out. Heck, I just might find a way to pay for the Fearless 2x12 and spend some time comparing the two and selling off what I don't want. Expensive way to choose a cabinet though..
He also had a used F1X he might be interested in getting rid of...
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I played through an HDN212 recently...rich, deep, and not back breaking ;)
I bet you'll love it.
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But did you try lifting it, Greg? Their weight (or lack thereof) is as amazing as the sound.
Peter
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But did you try lifting it, Greg? Their weight (or lack thereof) is as amazing as the sound.
Peter
The fearless or the berg? The f212 is around 70 lbs the Berg is 47
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Update...got the head and cabinet back from the tech last week...repair tag pics are attached, maybe some of you more technical minded folks can sort out what may have happened.
Not sure what my path forward is for this..It is a nice sounding head and cabinet combination, but the DI is still noisy despite the techs claims (and storeowners claims) it was "normal" noise. There was a very noticeable hum coming from the DI when plugged into an amp (california blonde) in the store and at my house. In contrast, the DI out on both my Demeter Bass 400 and Mesa D800+ were much quieter. No idea if this was the noise that various sound guys had complained about before (I never thought to go listen to see what they were hearing unfortunately).
Not sure if Im going to try and sell this privately, trade it in, or keep it for use as a beater rig.
(https://scontent.fwbw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43097367_10211326784279757_1998411835736326144_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&oh=d02858a42c67d6ab10474c0d15f91455&oe=5C163062)
(https://scontent.fwbw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43146462_10211326784479762_6417230857383182336_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&oh=ed9043d08b01e50cbc3bdcfe65a064f5&oe=5C1E1D2F)
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Hard to say what happened without a list of replaced components. DI hum could be due to ground looping problems, although I'm assuming you tried the ground lift on the Eden so probably not. I'm guessing the failure of one power amp led to DC going to your speakers, which will smoke them real good real fast.
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Eden DI's are known to be sensitive to out of spec phantom power from mixing consoles. Whether bad phantom power could have caused a cascade to the main power section I don't know without a schematic and knowing what was replaced. It is due to this that I use a passive isolation box when running to mixing consoles other than my own. I own the ART DTI unit. It has worked well for me without breaking the bank.
http://artproaudio.com/product/dti-dual-transformer-isolator/ (http://artproaudio.com/product/dti-dual-transformer-isolator/)