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Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Zut8083 on June 27, 2018, 07:51:56 AM

Title: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 27, 2018, 07:51:56 AM
I did something really stupid last night.  Like, supider than usual.

I started looking at very pretty recording consoles, as in "this console costs as much as a Ferrari", after reading arguments in the digital vs. analog discussion that grew out of Hammer's original series 1 shipping thread.  I was smitten by the visual and functional design and implied broad functionality of the units I saw (I went to https://vintageking.com/recording/consoles-mixers and oogled consoles and audio equipment until the window toward the east was softly turning blue).  Like many other things in life, be it anything like cosmology or cosmetology, this is something of which I know little and strive to know more.

While I have knee-jerk conviction to old school consoles being immensely powerful tools and works of art, the digital consoles were also intriguing as heck, with touch screens, and faders adjusting effects/plug-ins or signal.  Or even being able to dovetail with analog recording tools for hybrid strategies.  It's a really, really cool merging of art and science, but I am ignorant (as hell), and I am in the process of trying to read more to learn about recording strategies and techniques, and how to get the sound that you want, but I am curious what experience you folks have had with recording, what you prefer to do, what you have recorded, and why you went the way it did.

This inquiry is posed so long as it does not violate any professional courtesy or implicit intent to breach personal IP; I am just interested in what folks have to say, and hope to use what I can to guide further reading and thinking.  Thanks!

Cheers,
-Zut
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: gtrguy on June 27, 2018, 11:51:07 AM
Call me weird, but when I record (which is often) I don't even use a console. I just use the ones built into my software. I figure that a console is just one more thing to route your signal through that I don't need. I realize that this runs counter to most engineers though.
 
Here are a couple of off the top of my head questions;
1) How many channels do you need? Where will it fit?
2) How will it color your signal
3) Digital (with memory, which is nice) or analog?
4) Do you want to ride the faders by hand?
5) What outboard gear do you intend to use with it and can you use a patch bay easily to connect it all up?
6) What is your budget? Do you want new or used? If used, does it need work, like re-capping?
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: gtrguy on June 27, 2018, 11:55:13 AM
On a side note. last year I bought a Tascam 388 8 track 1/4" recorder for $500 (to get some real 'tape analog signal' into my DAW). Yesterday I got to looking at the recently sold ones on EBay and they are now selling for $2,500 and up!

Some vintage gear is a good investment!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: David Houck on June 27, 2018, 12:43:56 PM
To add to David's list, what are you planning to record, and how often?  Are you recording a band, or just yourself?  Will you be recording pretty often, or just once in a while?

I just record myself, no band, and I run through an interface into my computer, where Reaper is the DAW that I use.

Reaper has a steep learning curve, as do many DAWs, so I'm currently editing my recordings with Audacity, which is much simpler to use.

If you're recording your band, you can get interfaces that can do a lot of channels, and still go to your computer without a console.  And you can also get basic consoles that work with the DAW on your computer.

I don't know, but the impression that I get is that, unless you're wanting to build a professional studio and work as an engineer recording other people's albums, a deluxe console isn't something that's needed.  But I know very little about recording generally; and all I'm doing is just recording myself.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 27, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
Dear Dave and Gtrguy,

Thanks for the insights.  I agree that a console is a bit extreme for my needs, beyond being expensive albeit possibly an investment, it probably is something that was a minor spectacle to see the machine and the pricetag.  For now Audacity and a USB based interface to connect the DI from my amps to my computer is plenty sufficient, and Dave had suggested a model that he likes and that looks pretty solid. 

In terms of recording programs, I like Audacity, myself as it is much kinder in terms of putting things together.  Garageband, back when I used Macs, was simple and kind of neat to use, too.  Beyond understanding how recording is largely orchestrated on any scale, I do have an idea for a long-term project which will need consoles, mics, and assorted other gear, but that is an extremely speculative venture at this point, bordering on maniacal G.A.S. based on my wife's Vulcan eyebrow when I told her my master plan.  Thanks for the input, guys!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: hieronymous on June 27, 2018, 07:15:40 PM
I've been using ProTools since 2002 - my current rig consists of a Mac from 2008, ProTools LE (a budget version) and the MBox 2 Pro as my interface. It worked great for just recording my bass but when I wanted to record more simultaneous inputs it only had 4 which wasn't really enough.


I purchased a Zoom H6 which is awesome - 6 independent inputs, and now I don't have to drag my computer out to record my band. 6 inputs is enough for me, I just import the files into ProTools later to do editing. I also have the Zoom H2n which has 4 mics which is great for getting room sound, etc.


Like gtrguy I don't use a console, just what's in the DAW. When I first started I got some much needed help from a friend who was already using ProTools - like how to arm tracks for recording. I've helped others since then. There are some basic things that aren't too easy to pick up, but once you get that figured out then you are off into the world of EQ, microphones, preamps, compressors, etc. - so don't blow your money all at the beginning!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: cozmik_cowboy on June 27, 2018, 08:43:50 PM
My only experience with digital gear is (like almost all my experience) live reinforcement rather than recording.  The band I'd been doing sound for got a new system; don't remember the model, but it was Mackie, and the controls were all on a tablet.  While there is something to said for being able mix while walking around the room with the system in one hand, the view was extremely limited; part of one channel.  What more you have to swipe, and the controls are "virtual" knobs.  First, i hold touchscreens to be an evil on a level with gigbags & pantyhose; completely unwieldy. Second, I would liken mixing live with that system to trying ride a motorcycle with a 3-foot-long tube strapped to the front of your face.
I can see where it might be fun for a digital kids making YouTube vids in the basement, but it is not a tool for professional reinforcement!  (BTW, I told the guitarist who bought it this; that was the last time they used me.  Coincidence?  I really don't know.)
But, every time I find myself ready to stand on a soapbox and proclaim the utter and ever-lasting superiority of analog, i remember editing tape with a razorblade.........


Peter
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: edwin on June 27, 2018, 08:49:07 PM
OK, I'll chime in! :-) I, too, came up in the world of tape and razor blades and got to work on some amazing gear (nothing like a Studer 2").


These days I use Metric Halo interfaces, 3 ULN-8s and 2 2882s, so if they are all combined, that's 40 inputs (with massive opportunities for expansion, so with the preamps I have lying around I can do 56). However, they are split into three different rigs: a ULN-8 for my home studio for mixing, a big location and IEM rig with 2 ULN-8s and an RME Octamic, and a small rig with 2 2882s. Metric Halo is similar to Alembic, in that it's a small family run business with an absolute genius behind the scenes. I'm also a beta tester, so I've been able to be involved in the latest updates in hardware (which applies all the way back to the first box they ever made) and software. Their boxes have DSP and an 80 bit summing bus, so they are digital mixers with very high precision. Live, I control them with an iPad, and then when mixing, they are a Pro Tools front end. Not cheap, but the conversion is world class, the preamps are wonderful, and the whole layout, functionality, and philosophy of the mixers is incredibly flexible and sounds great. True audio swiss army knives.

This page describes the latest hardware/software system coming out and it's a game changer in the audio world:

https://mhsecure.com/3dEarlyAccess/ (https://mhsecure.com/3dEarlyAccess/)



Oh, and the DI in the ULN-8 is one of the best sounding bass DI's I've ever used.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 27, 2018, 09:50:04 PM
It is really cool to read all of your experiences and opinions and to see how they differ, and how they are rooted in successful use in live performances and use at home.  The unique utility/strengths and weaknesses of different recording and mixing media as experienced by the Forum is some serious fodder for deeper thought and later serious gear perusal, as is the contemplation of the evils of pantyhose outside of Wardrobe for a Coen Brothers movie. 

The shout out to editing tracks the old-fashioned way was also very cool: I've seen it done on video, I haven't done it myself, but I found it to be plainly amazing.  Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: cozmik_cowboy on June 28, 2018, 04:05:12 AM
I should probably add that the Mackie also lacked that wonderful "piloting a starship" feeling you get with an old-school PA....

Peter (who is going on 35 years married to someone who approached his board one night and asked "What are all those knobs and dials for?"  Ya just don't get that with a touchscreen!)
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: sonicus on June 28, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
I studied Audio Engineering in the mid 1970s . I attended class at Wally Heider Studios and later enrolled in the
College for Recording Arts where Mr. Leo De Gar Kulka was my teacher ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_De_Gar_Kulka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_De_Gar_Kulka)

This all happened during the peak of  the Analog Era of the recording industry and as a result I had hands on experience with very much pro high end tape recording equipment and studio desks / mixers . Just about every tape size from 2 inch to 1/8th inch . Just about every track configuration as well .  I have sat in front of classic API and MCI console desks with hands on in front of those old ALTEC 604 monitors  and many other mixers and monitors through the years .  I have lived through the various incarnations of Dolby processing such as A/ B/ C/S and the only one that I really liked was Dolby SR . I own a Dolby 363 with CAT 300 cards for SR/ A . I have DBX decoding gear as well but preferred the Dolby SR .  There were also folks who liked to run tape at 30ips NAB / EIC or IEC or CCIR calibrations depending on if one used domestic or European calibrations and other variables . Analog tape could get tricky . :)

I am a member of " The AMPEX list " and " the Studer list . These lists are  internet sites very much like our own " Alembic Club " . Many of us like my self own many Ampex , Studer, MCI , Otari , etc ... ... tape machines  and maintain them in order to specialize in doing Analog to Digital transfers .  Many of us also process and do restoration on the digital files and bake the tapes prior to the transfers . Acetate based tape of the 1950s and 1960s such as 3M 111 did not have the problems of " Sticky Shed Syndrome" that the mylar based tape developed such as AMPEX 456.  Mr.  Jamie Howarth who is also on our Ampex list has a restoration system know as the Plangent Process that seems to be surpassing many methods of restoration . Sonic Solutions " No Noise "was also on the top of restoration process types.

http://audio-restoration.com/baking.php (http://audio-restoration.com/baking.php)

Just about every seasoned old audio engineer on the Ampex & Studer list maintains such old machines for the purpose of just doing the tape transfers for the most part . Many of us will not make an argument of making new  analog recording on our huge machines  due to the vast improvement and advancement  of current DAW interfacing . PROTOOLS , METRIC HALO and other interfacing  and  file format digital recording  . 24/96 and 24/192 resolution are sounding really great  these days and with impressive dynamic range and low noise.

I actually record all my rehearsals and gigs these days on either my ZOOM H5 or H6  just for a " Sonic Journal " of what happened .  I also like the product line from a company called  " Sound Devices " . If I actually spend the time with careful placement or use external microphones the results get even better and can present a swell stereo panorama .   I have a few Protools rigs that I can lug around as well .  I also have a few old British Soundcraft mixers that I restored for fun however I often bypass equipment and opt for the shortest signal path. . Of course I would love to own a Rupert Neve desk . I actually met the gentleman and spoke with him once at an AES convention . He was very friendly .
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 28, 2018, 11:16:57 AM
Wow.  That's really great.  Are there classic books in the field of sound recording and engineering that are unilaterally recognized as either seminal or advanced, yet are central fonts of wisdom?  It seems like reading the fundamentals and how they are applied today by learning from a group of different books each with different emphasis would be beneficial and go at a pace that would not miss too much by presenting the knowledge in a single text.

Speaking of the Starship vibe, I sort of thought the Enterprise's Bridge set from the original series could have made a cool recording studio.  The screen could have been retrofitted as the glass to a vocal booth or isolation chamber.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: gtrguy on June 28, 2018, 12:29:27 PM
Such good input from club members! Now for some of my gear-head geek stuff;

Mics and preamps - I have found that certain mics work well with certain preamps to record certain things.

You have to experiment and compare. For instance, my C414 works great with my inexpensive Presonus MP20 on percussion. My ADK Vienna works super on my Focusrite green 'thing' ( I don’t know what model it is, has 1 in and 1 out) if I set the EQ just so. My ART MPA Gold seems to do nothing, even though I have tested it a lot with various tubes and settings (I still have hope to find out it will do something with the right mic). An RNC compressor is a handy thing to have. etc.

I use a Presonus Firestudio input unit, which you can chain together for more inputs. They seem to work fine.

Mics; I don't have super high end mics. I do have a lot of mics though (50 plus). I collect them. I get a lot at the Goodwill outlet store near me. One in 3 typically works, and 1 in 3 needs a simple wire reattached. The last 1 in 3 usually has a bad capsule. I buy cheap metal karaoke mics and pull the capsules from other oddball vintage mics and solder them into the cheap mic body. I have created some superb mics that way!

I love Shure SM58's and have 15 or so. I much prefer them to SM57's. After A - B testing dozens of SM58s and 57s I have concluded that the older gray body ones are better for recording than new black body ones. I sold off all the newer ones I had. Live I can't tell the difference.

Drums: I have 15 - 20 snares and 4 great kits, but I usually use a aluminum Ludwig Acrolite (I have 2) snare for recording 75% of the time. I also use Superior Drummer software plugin and I even sample my own drums and use software to put them into my tunes (I am NOT a studio drummer). I use an Evens drum key (the one like a torque wrench) and the Tune-bot to tune them. I use SM58s on toms, but the MD421 is the industry standard, and for good reason. I have foam all around my drum room and some on the ceiling, as I don't have a great sounding room. Kick drums work well with Shure Beta 52s or The Egg.
 
I DI bass into an Alembic F2B or F1X into my DAW (usually the F2B).
 
Plug ins: Love them! Waves has great sales all the time. I master my own stuff too. I usually have a mastering plug in on my tunes at the end of the signal chain all the time so that I can hear up front what it will be doing. The Waves L2 is easy to use and works well, though certain things will get pulled down when a lot is going on and they seem to narrow the stereo width somewhat. I have Bob Katzs book on mastering and it is very complicated, so I finally just went to using the 3 slider Waves mastering plug in. I also have a somewhat rare 2 track Meek SC3 optical mastering compressor, but don't use it much.

Monitor speakers: I have great sounding speakers for tracking because people playing like to think they sound great and they play better! These speakers are NOT for critical listening! I have 6 - 8 pairs of good headphones. Mixing: I just replaced my Event 20-20 BAS internal amped speakers with JBL LSR4326ps that you can tune to your room with the included mic. However, the Events sounded fine and are a great bargain. They also made a sub to go with them, if you can find it. I use a JBL Sub. I understand Genelecs are super monitors, but out of my price range.

The biggest thing is making sure you have a great sound going in from your instrument and amp (often overlooked). You can always 'dumb down' your sound to make it sit well in the mix, but 'dumbing up' is a lot harder.

Vocals; Get a good book about recording vocals. Different mics may work best for various singers; test them with your vocalist. Find a good space to record singers and get them a good headphone mix. They may want reverb etc on the headphone mix (don't record the effects, add them later). The human voice is only good for so long in the studio. Learn to recognize when your singer has had enough and then stop. Often they will either be wanting to quit OR they will insist that the 'next take' will be the one. this also holds true for players as well.
 
You would think that to record a great song you want every instrument to sound perfect and clear (logic will tell you this) but that is not the case at mix down.
There seems to be several stages of learning about recording that I hear on peoples demos:
First they just get it all down and recorded come what may
They then start to pay attention the how each track sounds
Then they realize that the song structure should be well crafted and the timing should be good
Then they try to make every track individually sound perfect
Then they realize that each track needs to Serve the Song
Then they realize that often Less is More
Then they realize that the Vocal is what matters these days, on most songs, and stuff like guitar solos etc are not as popular as they once were.
Then they mix to get a song that will appeal to the intended audience

Of course this is just my opinion and I am neglecting many types of music here and that there are other stages and ways to record, many of which I have yet to learn. In addition, I have seen engineers that are either limited in knowledge or equipment or they are just good business persons, who have figured out that being nice and easy to get along with in the studio is a great selling point, and being that way, as opposed to getting the most out of a tune, will get you more business than being a perfectionist! I have also seen many bands break up during the recording process, as it will bring problems the band already has to the fore.

Lastly, getting paid! Get money up front. Decide either to charge a flat rate (has many pitfalls) or by the hour.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: gtrguy on June 28, 2018, 12:31:11 PM
Sound On Sound has online stuff about recording and gear reviews that are great!
soundonsound.com
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: sonicus on June 28, 2018, 01:17:12 PM
Zut8083
                 A foremost and highly recognized text book for Audio Engineering is and has been ;
MODERN RECORDING TECHNIQUES  originally written by Robert E. Runstein and now updated by David Miles Huber.

https://www.amazon.com/Recording-Techniques-Engineering-Society-Presents/dp/0240821572
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 28, 2018, 02:39:36 PM
Holy Mackerel!  I gotta get some books, and THAT'S A LOT OF COOL STUFF YOU LISTED!!  SHAZBAT!  And as described, it all serves a purpose/the song.  Very cool!  Thanks guys!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: cozmik_cowboy on June 28, 2018, 04:21:27 PM
And for sound in general, you could do a lot worse than starting with Harry F. Olson's Acoustical Engineering (1939).


Peter
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: tbrannon on June 28, 2018, 05:06:21 PM
I learn so much on this forum.  Thanks to everyone who contributes knowledge and experience!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 28, 2018, 06:57:33 PM
All of these titles being proffered as classic sources to read to learn how recording is done is very exciting, indeed.  Thanks to all!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 28, 2018, 07:47:01 PM
OK, so I have another wacky question about the design of recording spaces/performance venues.  I have read that the human ear can hear sound reliably and on average down to around 20Hz, or a 56 ft wavelength.  To focus sound at this frequency, based on parabolic focusing, you would need a large room-sized receiver to direct that sound to a single point.

These wavelengths will not cover the rest of the sound spectrum as they have different receiver diameters to focus different frequencies of sound, and then that is only to one point.  How do some venues emphasize different frequencies that make them sound warm and inviting?  It doesn't seem that any parabolic reflection technology would work very well, thus, how would a PA work with the internal shape of a venue to provide a highly regarded reflection/augmentation of the sound so that the band sounded extra good?

This may be a little convoluted or tangled, but I guess this falls under how to augment the sound of instrument/amplification so that the listener's ears are in for a really amazing experience?  I am sure there is no one answer, or maybe even and answer other than copying serendipity as people have different tastes.  I am just curious if anything like this, the designing of venues to bounce preferred frequencies to audiences to give a permanent and hopefully pleasing parametric eq., is done during engineer or is a common practice.  Thanks.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: elwoodblue on June 28, 2018, 10:50:07 PM
  I've heard of clubs reversing one of every few subs near a stage to create a reinforcing in-phase wave
against the back wall,
 I'll have to search my memory (or google) to remember what that's called.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 29, 2018, 12:04:31 AM
Is it "Constructive Interference", maybe?  I dunno the proper term, but that's a really cool PA tool to hear about.  I thought I had heard that some specialized acoustic music venues exist (i.e. for classical and jazz fare ONLY), both domestically and abroad, that are built to emphasize certain resonant tones for performances.  I am just unsure how to tune the venue or tune the venue, its environment, and the audience for different performances, or if that's ridiculous.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: mario_farufyno on June 30, 2018, 06:28:20 AM
Zut, a perfect room in terms of acoustics should have to balance the way sounds will be heard there. Ideally it will be flat, in the sense that it will not colorate or modify what tones instruments and loudspeakers are generating. So it has to have at least one perfect spot where it is "transparent" to your ears and "true" to sound sources.

That way you can be sure that what you hear is what you'll get recorded. Despite there is no easy way to get perfect rooms and is probably impossible to get a 100% flat sweetspot, there are ways to improve monitoring rooms. Check this guy, great teacher and explains all the subjects:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu6Bjebk4fuye46VRG5Y83A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu6Bjebk4fuye46VRG5Y83A)
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: mario_farufyno on June 30, 2018, 06:46:06 AM
In a flat room (or near to it) you can choose wich frequencies to enhance and do it easily with eq. In an uncontroled room you may have to spend your eqs to tame down problems instead to construct something good. Rooms that enhance part of the spectrum can make a good sounding records seems to bias towards that region. If you monitor a recording in such enviroment, you risk thinking that you need to compensate something that is really not there, like trying to paint a colorfull landscape wearing color lens glasses.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: mario_farufyno on June 30, 2018, 06:52:51 AM
Check when he talks about Room Modes.

I was in the mood to explain it, but I really can't express my self in english as easily as I wish to, so forgive me. The Acoustic Fields I suggested is a great source, hope it'll help you. Email me if you wish.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: mario_farufyno on June 30, 2018, 07:19:46 AM
Think Room Modes like harmonics nodes in a vibrating string. So the problem is that some places will enhance some frequency and other spots will kill it. More, if you think about harmonic series, you know that some frequencies will be enhanced, some will be damped and some will be not affected. That is what defines your guitar tone (combined to the way woods and construction decisions will affect how this ressonates in body and neck) and thats how rooms have natural tones, too.

The problem starts when the color is such strong that dramaticaly changes how sounds are heard there.

As in string, harmonics happens along its phisical extension, and that happens along one room dimension too. So you can expect one specific frequency being loud in some spots alng the room while missing in others. To make things harder, rooms are tridimensional, but this can be a solution too.

The problem gets nasty when 2 or 3 room dimensions are equal or almost. This superimpose harmonic nodes and make the problem worst but this also means that if you balance better room proportions, those harmonic series can complement one another, spreading along sound spectrum instead of pinpointing just specific frequencies. Cubic rooms are bad but if it has complementary dimensions the room can sound full and open at same time.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: mario_farufyno on June 30, 2018, 07:40:52 AM
What is made in opera houses and theaters is using sound absorption to control reverberation.

If it is an auditorium and the goal is speech clearness, we tend to put reverb time down. Depends on room size (bigger the room, more reverberation is acceptable), but we reach for reverberation time near 500ms to 1KHz and shorter below 200Hz (to avoid boominess).

In classical music facilities we use longer reverberation times to glue all orquestral elements and let the lows below 200Hz to reverberate even longer. This is a strategy to help acoustic instruments to sound deeper and punchier to audience, and works just when the room doesn't have Modal problems (you don't want a rumble sounding room).

In electric music context, the lows are usualy overpowering yet, so we don't really need more lows driven by room. Rooms like that ends being described as boomy. Our natural enviroment are garages or home rooms, so matches better shorter reverb times and hopefully windows and closets get the lows out of sight at home (worst to neighbours but better to players in our own house).
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 30, 2018, 09:06:21 AM
Thanks, Mario!  I am not very familiar with designing venues for even, natural sound response.
 I do remember that Phil Lesh added an anecdote in his autobiography to describe the addition of a white noise generator and receivers from their sound system to pulse the venue and look for high, middle, or low frequency responsiveness or ablation.  This then informed the tuning of the PA, accordingly.  He also noted that is now pretty common practice with PAs, but what you've described bears further, careful study.  Thank you, again for your insight.
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: cozmik_cowboy on June 30, 2018, 10:24:33 PM
Very few rooms are acoustically flat - and the variation from flat that is ideal for a string quartet won't work for a swing band, etc.  Buy every room can be tuned for your needs; I've always said that the soundman's most critical tool (other than his ears) is the graphic equalizer.
White noise generators & RTAs were just breaking into the highest-priced echelons of reinforcement when I left the trade as full-time matter; I knew of, and lusted after, them, but have never encountered them.  I had the person whose voice I was most familiar with talk in a conversational manner into a mic & EQed the room so that it sounded like they were sitting next to me chatting.  Works every time.

Peter
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on June 30, 2018, 10:59:50 PM
Peter-

I really like that approach.  That's really cool.  The second worst EQ in a live act that I heard was Blues Traveler in Wrigleyville in...2000?  The soundman must have been on serious expired milk, because the treble was all the way in the back and the bass was all the way forward, and this was a small gig in a 500 seat capacity club near a burrito joint.  I don't know why the bass was all the way in the front, as I would assume it would really cause problems with the monitors as I don't think In-Ears were a big deal for everyone in a band at that point.  Not even Blues Traveler.  Thanks!

Cheers,
Zut
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: cozmik_cowboy on July 01, 2018, 06:47:33 AM
I'm sorry, Zut, but I most point out - there's no such place as Wrigleyville!!!! 
The neighborhood whereChicago's National League ball club play their home games is, was, and always will be Lakeview!! (where, in the interest of full disclosure, I lived for most of my sound-and-roadie career.)
"Wrigleyville" is a cutesie abomination perpetrated by the same carpetbagging talking heads who keep trying to change the name of the Hubbard Street Tunnel to "Hubbard's Cave".
Anyone who would say "Wrigleyville" would wear a neon pink Cubs hats & do the wave - and if you don't understand why those are bad, you're not from Chicago!  I swear, Mike Royko is whirling like a dervish every time someone uses that term.
Now you kids get off my lawn!


And now I'll get down from my soapbox  ;D  and ask - what club in Lakeview was this?
And, of course - what was the worst?


Peter (who will now go about his day strong in the knowledge that he has struck a blow for righteousness)



Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on July 01, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
OK, ya got me, I didn't know I was dealing with a pro.  I didn't mean it personally though, I was born on the 2700 block of S. Ellis, went to college in Hyde Park, and lived in Evanston for the most of my time as a minor in Chicago.  So, while, true, I was no true Chicagoan, I thought the term would gain a bit more recognition with an unknown audience.

So, now that I am speaking to a potentially fellow ex-pat, where between us there is no "Chi-town", the one true faith is Vienna Beef, Mr. Beef, and Lou Malnati's or maybe Gino's East, it is good to know I cannot pull a fast one on you.  :)

The club?  Upon some digging, I think it was Blues Traveler's gig at the Metro on June 28, 2000.  That was the only summer I had sub-letted from my friend and the only summer we hung out in college, and that the dude with whom I went to see that mess, and that is the only Chicago show Blues Traveler played that summer.  It's also 0.2 miles from Wrigley Field, so while I don't know for sure that I was ever at the esteemed Metro, but I see no other alternatives as to the venue.  It's surprising in hindsight that the mix was that bad there, but, I know beans about most things.

The worst sound?  That was when my little band in grad school played a battle of the bands at what is now the 710 Beach Club in Pacific Beach, CA in the winter of 2005.  The week before we did a run through in front a festive crowd of Monday passerbys, and we tweaked our songs over 3-5 limit at the open mic, getting the strings eq'd on our amps and the drum through the house sound system.  We recorded all the levels on every fader and knob. 

The battle of the bands came around the next week, and the sound guy is on bad smoke cut with PCP, which is his call, but it didn't help him do his job.  He was having mild auditory hallucinations and totally destroyed the mic placement for the drums, the drum's monitor eq, the stage monitor, and while the guitarists politely waved him off for any help as he knew them, he doesn't listen to me.  Halfway through the set, he plugged some electrical tape/altoids tin contraption/hackneyed module into my DI, bypassing my monitor and my 4x10 and began squeezing the low end of my sound like an orange via the PA.  It sounded like a Speak and Spell fed a talkbox and then played through a cheap tin whistle.  I was steamed and still playing.  This was worsened by the rhythm guitarist/vocalist screaming and half-"measuring" his parts, by the drummer and myself looking to run up an in-set bar tab, by having talked myself out of bringing an aluminum foil-wrapped cucumber for added "stage presence" and I was beginning to regret it, AND OF COURSE, the 24 year-old lead guitarist from my lab was letting loose with his best Vai/Malmsteen/Roth/Schenker/Lynch/Rhoads/Van Halen/Paga-oh-no-no-no/bits of Bach's Bourre that became Blech's Puree in the mix.  And all the songs were supposed to be cutesy-pie tunes despite both a three-way musical schism and a progressive front for instrumentals and mild improvisation, and NO JAZZ ODYSSEYS.

To conclude we had awful sound built on the brown acid from Yagsur's farm affecting the mix, angsty burrito-loving lyrics, a vocal/rhythm guitar tantrum that would make Morrissey blush/a lead guitar menagerie on ten fingers and six strings with +20dB advantage in the mix/and a confused rhythm section that wanted to have fun and then drink desperately when seeing how much more professional the other bands were and how badly we were doing.  That was the worst.

OR, a contender was some local band opening for AC/DC in the spring of 2000 when Slash got sick with heart trouble and dropped out as the supporting act at the last second, but at least they had stage presence.

#WhiteSoxLyfe

-Zut
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: cozmik_cowboy on July 01, 2018, 12:10:32 PM


The battle of the bands came around the next week, and the sound guy is on bad smoke cut with PCP, which is his call, but it didn't help him do his job.  He was having mild auditory hallucinations....

I hate when that happens. I once may have accidentally accepted an offer of a line during a break, and it turned to be something the donor referred to as "rocket fuel" - 25% coke, 75% dust.
The rest of the night was.........interesting.  I had to keep turning to the light man:  "Hey, Jackie?"  "No, that's a hallucination; you're good."  "Um, Jackie?"  "Yeah, that one's really feedback."
Can't believe someone would toot that crap on purpose - and especially not when mixing!

And BTW, I lived 4 years in an apartment where you could sit in the living room & listen to the Cubs' field announcer - but have only been in Wrigley twice; in '84 when the band I was working for did a post-game show in the outfield (one of my jobs was to help Harry onto the stage to do the intro, which I assure you was no easy task - and allow me to state for the record that Mr. Carey was a vile, nasty, drunken little troll!) and last summer for James Taylor and Bonnie Raitt.  And yes, of course I wore my Sox hat!

Peter
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: Zut8083 on July 01, 2018, 01:44:51 PM
The one game that I saw at Wrigley Field was to see the Cubs lose to the Diamondbacks.  Best time ever.  I want to install a Wrigley Field-esque men's room "communal plumbing fixture" in my bathroom in a future home.  Weirdest mass gather, ever, y'know?

As to the wisdom of consuming cheap green things laced with phencyclidene for enthogenic purposes, yeah, it didn't help the mix at all, and that wasn't too robust to start with.  It could have been a catecholamine derivative, sure, but he was too spacey for that, nor was he rocking around in his chicken wired booth erratically enough for something from East County.

It was an all around bad time and one that caused me to give up on playing live.  For example, a girl I was trying to date voted for another band, and shrugged it off as saying "So, I'm a Benedict Arnold."  A+ for musical taste, F- for loyalty!  All around a portent to not tour.

I always felt that Carey looked he was sketchy and greasy, in a bad way.  And speaking of the Sox, let us never forget:

-Zut
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: sonicus on July 08, 2018, 03:10:43 AM
Here are two of my Ampex analog tape machines ;
On the left is my Ampex AG440B- 2 Track 1/4" . On the right is my Ampex AG440C 4 Track 1/2" with DC servo capstan and VS-10 speed control .
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: mario_farufyno on July 08, 2018, 04:19:31 AM
Oh, Wolf, precious!
Title: Re: I'd like some input regarding digital and analog recording.
Post by: sonicus on July 08, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
Thanks Mario !