Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Owning an Alembic => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: tomhug on January 25, 2018, 10:21:26 AM
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I have an Essence 5. I just put on Sunbeam NMR5-130s (45-65-85-105-130).
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4720/39185158274_5c32da667d.jpg)
My B string is sharp about 20 cents when fretted on the 12th, and the saddle is maxed as far as it will go.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4654/39185157804_e17fd32102.jpg)
I've done all the other setup procedures as described in Joey's Post and elsewhere online. All the other strings intonated fine.
Is there a solution? Hypothetically speaking, if the brass tone block had mounting holes a bit closer to the edge of the body, the whole bridge could shift down and put all the saddles back into an intonatable range.
Would a slightly lighter gauge B string help? I could go to a 125...
Tom
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How far does it need to go? You could first try reversing the brass block, but that may well not do it. If it needed to go a long ways, you could get a longer adjustment screw and hang it off the back of the bridge. You could also drill another hole in the sustain block and tap it and mount that side of the bridge back further, as you suggested. Do you have another B string to try out on it?
Also, B strings are notoriously hard to intonate correctly. Are you positive it is off?
Lastly, In my working on Alembics, those brass blocks drop out pretty easy (you can put the screws just in the block and pull). Maybe you could flip it over and carefully drill new holes? (you may then want to level and polish the brass if it needs it on the backside, just for looks)
My less than .02 cents worth
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How far does it need to go?
If you look at the first picture, that's from before I did the setup. I believe this bass had 120's on it then (from the previous owner). I would estimate it it needs to go about one more saddle-thickness away from the neck to intonate properly.
Do you have another B string to try out on it?
I may try with the old string, or I may try with a lighter-gauge B
Also, B strings are notoriously hard to intonate correctly. Are you positive it is off?
I use iStroboSoft for intonation, which is the iOS verison of a Peterson Strobe Tuner. I use it for all my instruments, so I am pretty sure the technology works and that my methods are sound.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4677/39186519834_64d16fca90_n.jpg)
I guess hypothetically I could also compensate the nut somewhat. I will probably just start with a lighter B-string and see how that affects things.
Thanks for the ideas.
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Did you check the intonation when the old strings were on? Change the neck relief when doing the new setup? If the intonation was good with the lighter string and/or you changed the relief on the neck that may give you some clues. Due to the thickness of the B strings and large orbit at their center it can be tricky to set neck relief so that the string doesn't buzz but also intonates properly when fretted. Sometimes you just have to find a gauge or brand of strings that sit better on the bass, sometimes you have to accept a trade off of preferred string height vs precise intonation. If the string has to sit closer to the neck to get the intonation right it can mean having to adjust right hand technique to eliminate any fret buzz. Naturally all the frets also need to be level and seated properly, too. All the five-strings I own have to be finessed a bit during setup to get it right. It is rare but sometimes you can get a bum string out of a fresh pack so that is worth checking, too.
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Did you check the intonation when the old strings were on? Change the neck relief when doing the new setup? If the intonation was good with the lighter string and/or you changed the relief on the neck that may give you some clues. Due to the thickness of the B strings and large orbit at their center it can be tricky to set neck relief so that the string doesn't buzz but also intonates properly when fretted. Sometimes you just have to find a gauge or brand of strings that sit better on the bass, sometimes you have to accept a trade off of preferred string height vs precise intonation. If the string has to sit closer to the neck to get the intonation right it can mean having to adjust right hand technique to eliminate any fret buzz. Naturally all the frets also need to be level and seated properly, too. All the five-strings I own have to be finessed a bit during setup to get it right. It is rare but sometimes you can get a bum string out of a fresh pack so that is worth checking, too.
These are all good thoughts. I did change both the gauge of the strings and the relief of the neck during the most recent setup.
I did not actually check the intonation prior to swapping strings. I think, all things being equal, the bass is in overall better shape now than before the string change/setup/intonation. What I will probably do is order a singleton in a lighter gauge, and see where that puts things. Or I may just go down one size to the DR Sunbeam 45-125s.
I don't have my action set crazy-low, but there was way too much relief in the neck prior to my recent setup.
I'll be playing this bass tonight in a familiar setting, so we'll see how she does. 20 cents at the 12th fret on the B String may not mean much in actual practice, although it would be nice to dial it in perfectly on all strings.
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Tom, if it is only a little off, you could file down the saddle on the backside, where it is in contact with the back of the bridge rail. You would wind up with a thinner saddle, but still have the correct break vs. reversing the saddle. Does that make sense?
Bill, tgo
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Contact core strings might help. You can buy individual GHS strings at juststrings.com if you just want a B. I would definitely play around with some different strings before drilling. :D
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What year is it? Looking at my 88 Spoiler and 94 Epic, sometime between those two years the length of adjustment went from about 14 mm to about 19 mm (about 0.2" longer). IIRC, the Mothership can set you up with a bridge rehab kit with longer barrels, bolts and whatnots.
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Contact core strings might help. You can buy individual GHS strings at juststrings.com if you just want a B. I would definitely play around with some different strings before drilling. :D
True except contact core would require a new saddle as well. But I agree that they would likely address teh intonation.
I'm just going to try to go down a gauge with the same type of strings. Or maybe two gauges. Simplest solution, I think. Thanks!
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What year is it? Looking at my 88 Spoiler and 94 Epic, sometime between those two years the length of adjustment went from about 14 mm to about 19 mm (about 0.2" longer). IIRC, the Mothership can set you up with a bridge rehab kit with longer barrels, bolts and whatnots.
It's a 2004. The bridge on it is already 19mm. But that would be a sweet and simple solution - a longer play bridge.
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It seems I have a bigger problem than I first thought. I put the strings that were on there previously back on, and I still cannot intonate this instrument. I purchased this bass second-hand, and I did not do a full setup when I got it.
With the original gauge strings on there, here's how the saddles look:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4672/26316453308_c97fe9c2ae_z.jpg)
Both the E and the B are maxed. The E is about 5 cents sharp when fretted, the B is still about 20 cents sharp.
Here are the results of the strings on there now:
String | B | E | A | D | G |
Gauge | .125 | .100 | .080 | .060 | .045 |
Harmonic | -00.2 | -06.5 | -06.6 | -02.2 | -03.2 |
Fretted | +20.2 | -01.2 | -06.7 | -02.3 | -03.0 |
I have to presume that this bass has never intonated properly with a low B.
Help ?!?
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Weird. :o
I would have a sustain block drilled so the bridge was offset... that seems the easiest fix.
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Tom,
Have you tried a lighter gauge string? I use 115 for B on my two five string basses. The saddles are pretty far back, but don't touch the end of the bridge and both basses intonate well. And, the 115 B sounds pretty good!
Rob
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Beyond the readout on the tuner does the bass sound out of tune to you when you play it?
I have a luthier friend who apprenticed to Jimmy D'Aquisto. For years he used Jimmy's templates to cut this fret slots, same templates that John D'Angelico used and were passed on to Jimmy. When Joseph got "modern" templates created via computer we were both surprised at how "off" the fret placement was on the D'Aquistos and D'Angelicos yet the guitars sound fine when you play them. I kind of find it hard to believe that Alembic would ship an instrument without setting it up properly and checking the intonation.
Meanwhile the suggestion to try other brands/gauges of strings is a good one. You may be able to find out what kind of strings were on the bass when it originally shipped from the factory. If you don't have the build sheet ask Mica to look it up. Strings are usually listed on the build sheet. You shouldn't have to alter the bridge unless it was not made properly and if that is the case it may fall under warranty repair even though you are not the original owner, you would have to check with Alembic about that and then ship the bass to them to evaluate it.
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Beyond the readout on the tuner does the bass sound out of tune to you when you play it?
I have a luthier friend who apprenticed to Jimmy D'Aquisto. For years he used Jimmy's templates to cut this fret slots, same templates that John D'Angelico used and were passed on to Jimmy. When Joseph got "modern" templates created via computer we were both surprised at how "off" the fret placement was on the D'Aquistos and D'Angelicos yet the guitars sound fine when you play them. I kind of find it hard to believe that Alembic would ship an instrument without setting it up properly and checking the intonation.
Meanwhile the suggestion to try other brands/gauges of strings is a good one. You may be able to find out what kind of strings were on the bass when it originally shipped from the factory. If you don't have the build sheet ask Mica to look it up. Strings are usually listed on the build sheet. You shouldn't have to alter the bridge unless it was not made properly and if that is the case it may fall under warranty repair even though you are not the original owner, you would have to check with Alembic about that and then ship the bass to them to evaluate it.
Unfortunately it does sound out of tune when I play the B. And unfortunately If I'm playing this bass , it's because I need a B string. (I have a 4-string I can play when I don't need the B)
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My recommendation is to take it to a professional and get a second opinion. Not to suggest that you are doing anything wrong or don't know what you are doing. Just take a step away and let someone else have a look.
Perhaps there is something simple being overlooked.
Or, as already mentioned, send it to Alembic for a spa treatment.
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My recommendation is to take it to a professional and get a second opinion. Not to suggest that you are doing anything wrong or don't know what you are doing. Just take a step away and let someone else have a look.
Perhaps there is something simple being overlooked.
Or, as already mentioned, send it to Alembic for a spa treatment.
This is eminently reasonable advice.
I would be thrilled if this out to be a PEBCAK error ("Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard" - as they say in my industry) - that's an easier problem to fix.
I will say, that I do my own setups on all 8 of my basses. I've built two of these myself. I've had professional luthiers complement me on my setups. I'm not infallible, but I've stood at the workbench of some pretty experienced dudes while they set up my instruments, and they did the same things, and followed the same procedures, that I do.
But you're right, a 2nd set of (experienced) eyes is a worth-while investment before jumping to any wild conclusions or courses of action.
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Send your bridgeblock to us and we'll be happy to drill an extra set of mounting holes to the south of the original ones - would only take a day or two to turn around. This would get you playing better for sure.
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Send your bridgeblock to us and we'll be happy to drill an extra set of mounting holes to the south of the original ones - would only take a day or two to turn around. This would get you playing better for sure.
Thanks Mica,
I am going to have this bass looked at by a luthier in my area, just to make sure that I am not reading the strobe-tuner wrong, or making some other kind of foolish mistake. If he concurs with my assessment, I will send the bridge-block your way.
And if he doesn't concur with my assessment, I'll get to report whatever it was I was doing wrong in a (semi)public forum, which I will call a good "character-building" exercise :-[
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There's good news and bad news:
The good news is that I did know what I was doing, at least insofar as the setup was concerned. For those keeping score at home, the "2nd opinion" was from Carl Pedigo. Carl was principal luthier at Lakland and I was first referred to him for a different instrument by non other than Roger Sadowksy. So those are pretty good bona fides. Carl's independent now (since Lakland was bought out). He's at www.chicagobassdoctor.com (http://www.chicagobassdoctor.com/). A total gentleman and affable guy. If you're near Chicago's north side and need luthery, I can recommend Carl wholeheartedly.
The bad news is that now I need to fix the issue. I am debating whether trying a lighter (something like .040 .060 .080 .100 .120) set of strings might be the first thing to try, before drilling holes in the bridge-plate.
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Tom,
Have you tried a lighter gauge string? I use 115 for B on my two five string basses. The saddles are pretty far back, but don't touch the end of the bridge and both basses intonate well. And, the 115 B sounds pretty good!
Rob
If you please Rob, Where do you get a .115 B? I usually buy from BassStringsOnline, and I didn't see any singles lighter than .120 - at least not in the brands I commonly use.
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Tom,
I use flat wounds and ordered individual 115 B strings direct from Pyramid. If you use flats I have an extra one I could send you if you want to try it out. If you use round wounds, I think Dunlop makes 115 B strings:
https://www.amazon.com/DUNLOP-DBN115-Nickel-Stainless-Guitar/dp/B00GYTWWIO/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1519300900&sr=8-16&keywords=bass+strings+115
Rob
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I'm pretty sure T-I includes a .118 B string on their Jazz Rounds set. I probably have a decent take-off set for a 34" scale 3+2 if you'd like to try them. (they were on a Tobias 5-string...)
I'd just take Mica up on the offer to redrill the sustain block... quick turnaround, permanent fix, plus you can use whatever strings you prefer.
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You remember a few posts up, when I said:
... I'll get to report whatever it was I was doing wrong in a (semi)public forum, which I will call a good "character-building" exercise :-[
It turns out that my setup procedures were fine, but my string installation procedures were missing the important step of setting witness points.
I had reached out to Jason at BassStringsOnline, who said:
Press down on the strings in front of the saddles to create a proper witness point. You will need to do this after every movement of the saddle when setting intonation as well. Since this is a heavier gauge string it needs a little help for a proper witness point to be made. Also check the same thing at the nut and nut height.
Jason
BassStringsOnline.com
That turned out to be exactly it. Witness Points. In 38 years of bass playing, I had never given them much thought. But they are definitely a thing.
They are described and depicted here (https://www.bassesbyleo.com/intonation_notes.html) and here (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/witness-points-the-pictorial.1217291/) and here (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/what-is-a-witness-point-and-how-do-i-set-it.907412/) (and, it turns out, mentioned several time in this forum)
I went back and set the saddles to where they were in the first pic (to serve as a starting point). With witness points set and reset after each saddle move, the bass intonates just fine.
One of the things that held me back from immediately sending the bridge plate back, is that I have another Essence 5, a fretless, that has the exact same measurements as the one pictured in this thread. What are the odds that Alembic made two Essences that needed the bridge to be shifted? Those odds are certainly astronomically lower than the probability of my ignorance, er, opportunity to learn. 8)
So the happy ending is now this Essence is wearing the DR Sunbeams I wanted to switch to, in the gauge I prefer. And now I know to include setting witness points in my string replacement and setup routines.
Thank you Edward and Rob for the offer of strings to test, and everyone for replying.
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I've never heard this called "witness point" before, but it does describe the issue that I have previously encountered when setting intonation. I avoid this by always loosening the string completely before adjusting the saddle, making sure the string isn't binding in the saddle, and then tightening to pitch. If the intonation needs still more adjustment, I again completely loosen the string, adjust the saddle, and retune. Nobody ever told me to do this. It just seemed logical that adjusting the saddle while the string had tension might cause the string to hang up where is sits in the saddle resulting in the saddle adjustment correspondingly stretching or compressing the string. And, of course, the intonation should always be tested with the instrument in the playing position, not lying on its back.
Bill, tgo
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I've never heard this called "witness point" before, but it does describe the issue that I have previously encountered when setting intonation. I avoid this by always loosening the string completely before adjusting the saddle, making sure the string isn't binding in the saddle, and then tightening to pitch. If the intonation needs still more adjustment, I again completely loosen the string, adjust the saddle, and retune. Nobody ever told me to do this. It just seemed logical that adjusting the saddle while the string had tension might cause the string to hang up where is sits in the saddle resulting in the saddle adjustment correspondingly stretching or compressing the string. And, of course, the intonation should always be tested with the instrument in the playing position, not lying on its back.
Bill, tgo
As I've learned more about this, I think that what you are describing is actually a separate, but related issue:- The first issue that you describe is unevenly stored tension from moving the saddle while the string is up to pitch
- The second issue, having to do with witness points, is how much flexing the core of the string has to do when fretted. For a stringed instrument to intonate as close to properly as physically possible, you want the minimum additional stretching when fretted. Setting witness points basically makes the contact points between the nut and the saddle as straight as possible, which minimizes this stretching phenomenon.
So I agree that it's important to not have additional stored tension and agree that loosening as you described is important. It's also much more likely that with guitar strings you would never encounter witness points because the thinner string naturally works out to be straight when brought up to pitch. Once you get to thick strings with multiple wraps and different core shapes and stiffnesses, then witness points really become a seperate physical attribute that must be addressed, as evidenced by my recent conundrum.
Tom
tbaago
(Tom, the bass and also guitar one) :D
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I've never heard the term "witness point" either in reference to a stringed instrument but I kinda like it.
I've changes a LOT of strings over the years and my habit is to first put the new set on one at a time pulling them up to pitch as I go. Once they're all on I then grab each string with my hand and yank it back and forth hard a couple times. Then I use both thumbs on either side of the bridge saddles to press down towards the body to make that "turn" a sharp corner (for witness protection as I now understand it). Then a similar few presses between the nut and the tuner.
I've always done this to avoid any further stretching or seating once the bass is back up to pitch. I never even thought about the effect of having a soft corner over the bridge on intonation, that's interesting. I would think this situation would only happen with a brand new set of strings. Once you've play the instrument enough that the strings stop going flat, that means the witness has come forward and done the right thing. :D
I also am not afraid to shift a bridge saddles with the string at pitch. Probably just too impatient to do otherwise. But if I move a saddle (rare for me now) I will do the double thumb press again to help the string know where to bend.
Jimmy J
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I've never heard the term "witness point" either in reference to a stringed instrument but I kinda like it.
I've changes a LOT of strings over the years and my habit is to first put the new set on one at a time pulling them up to pitch as I go. Once they're all on I then grab each string with my hand and yank it back and forth hard a couple times. Then I use both thumbs on either side of the bridge saddles to press down towards the body to make that "turn" a sharp corner (for witness protection as I now understand it). Then a similar few presses between the nut and the tuner.
I've always done this to avoid any further stretching or seating once the bass is back up to pitch. I never even thought about the effect of having a soft corner over the bridge on intonation, that's interesting. I would think this situation would only happen with a brand new set of strings. Once you've play the instrument enough that the strings stop going flat, that means the witness has come forward and done the right thing. :D
I also am not afraid to shift a bridge saddles with the string at pitch. Probably just too impatient to do otherwise. But if I move a saddle (rare for me now) I will do the double thumb press again to help the string know where to bend.
Jimmy J
Rick Turner is cited a few places online as a source for the concept of witness points, so apparently this esoteric luthier knowledge exists in some rarified circles.
Regarding shifting the saddles at pitch, an old trick that was shown to me is plain old pencil lead in the grooves on both saddles and nuts. It used to drive my guitarist crazy because my instruments always has a bit of gray pencil on the white nut (for non Alembic instruments.) The graphite is just slippery enough to allow free travel. I still pull up on the strings a bit to make sure any binding or stored tension is eliminated.
Jimmy, that pressing down on either side of the bridge saddle is the motion that eliminates the undesirable arc, so you were intuitively fixing witness points. Over the years I have done my own setups and changed plenty of strings, and informally pressed things into place, but I was not rigorous about it. This was the first time the undesirable side-effects of an arc in a heavy B-string was so noticeable. It will now be a checklist item for me, just like checking neck relief. And in fact I plan to swap out my flat-wounds on the fretless for Alembic compression wounds in roughly the same gauge soon, so I'll get a chance to practice what I (now) preach, as a new "church of the Witness Point" convert.
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When I do a setup I do a bit of both Bill's and Jimmy's procedures. It just seemed logical to me to be able to move the saddle without tension and to seat the string when disturbed. Guess I got lucky unlike the first time I tried to set the truss rod in my JB and popped it. :'(
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If the saddle will not move easily under tension I loosen the string to move it then retune. Otherwise I move the saddle under tension.
Stephen, who had also never heard the term witness points...
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I'm a little embarrassed that this hadn't occurred to me. Setting up upright basses, I do know about witness points. It can be a big problem when restringing with a used set of strings after cutting a new bridge. If that little kink (former witness point) falls on the business side of the bridge, all kinds of sonic wackiness might happen. I always advise my clients to go on and spend the money for a new set of strings while it's on the bench anyway, but at close to $200 a set, it can be a tough sell. :P
But all that said, I would never have guessed seating a string into a saddle would make 20 cents of difference in intonation... live and learn. ;)
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I just ordered new strings for my Alembicized fretless Guild - going to go through and re-read the materials that Tom posted and basically the entire thread before I restring! I've been playing bass since 1983 and am somewhat neurotic about strings, especially since I started playing again in about 2002 after a 7 year break. If something goes wrong, it can be a $30 to $50 mistake! So thank you very much for this thread and information! I had never heard of witness points either, though it makes a lot of sense.
The only thing is, the Guild harp bridge system is pretty fragile - don't want to push too hard on those 40 year old rosewood saddles! I do have some metal replacement saddles, but switching to an Alembic bridge system sometime down the line is definitely an interesting possibility...
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Two thoughts: (although I can't yet claim to be an expert on witness points, I have researched them extensively since my epiphany and even talked to a luthier a bit more about them).
Being vintage, and a 4 string, the effect of witness points on your Guild will be a bit less extreme than that what I experienced on the heavy .130 gauge B-string.
That force exists already on the rosewood saddles of your bass simply by being strung up to tension, although caution is certainly warranted. I think the main idea is to remove any latent arc of the string, so the minimum force to do this will accomplish the setting of witness points.
I believe, but do not know, that technically speaking, the straightening of latent arcs that setting witness points provides would eventually take place just by having a string up to tension. Setting points just hurries the process. They do it on mandolins, some of which also have wood saddles.
That Guild of your seems like a cool instrument. A vintage shorter scale in that vein or maybe a Starfire is on my "wish-list"
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Thanks Tom - definitely helps! I think I'm a little confused in my mind too with my 5-string Stanley Clarke - I think this will definitely help with that too. I custom ordered LaBella strings for the low B and this info about witness points is very relevant (though the ball end is tapered so it won't be as essential).
As stressful as strings can be it feels so good when you find the right ones!
Speaking of string changing, this old Allan Holdsworth video spends the first minute or so showing him changing strings on his Charvel guitar - plus it has Jimmy Johnson on bass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWU_yFFsNtc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWU_yFFsNtc)