Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: glocke on November 23, 2017, 10:00:23 AM
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Phil Lesh of course.
This topic came up in the course of a conversation i had a few weeks back. Basically a guitar player was complaining about his bass player never playing "on the one", and he was looking to replace him for that reason as well as some others. Flash forward to this current week and I was discussing this with a drummer friend of mine and he said "so he got fired from a Dead cover band for being to Phil like?"...
I've been listening to the Grateful Dead since the 80's, been playing Dead tunes almost since than, and I still can't figure out where this idea that he doesn't play on the one comes from. Sure, during the improv/solo sections he gets out there, but during the actual structure of a song, rhythmically he very much remains consistent with the bassists role.
What am I missing here?
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This is a great question!!! I would like to know the answer to this myself!!
Have to agree , Phil has a good sense of time, perhaps it's just me , but , I never really noticed if Phil was playing slightly behind the beat.
In my years as a musician (Bassist) one of the first lessons that really sunk in was, in playing any musical form or style, a bass player can not loose the one beat!
Would really not be much of a rhythm section if you cant keep time!!!
I remember Louis Johnson once said, "a bass player constantly helps a drummer (that means any drummer) stay in time"!
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Louis Johnson is correct.
A bassist doesn't have to play on the one as much as infer the one... the pulse of the beat should be present. Sometimes the pulse has space/ silence as a part of it.
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I think a lot of what's going on is that, rather than a quick repeating part, Phil's parts often go on for quite a while before repeating (although it was a big reveal to me long ago to realize that, in fact, he was playing repeating (or almost) parts, not just jamming during the verse/chorus). During what's usually a pretty melodic contrapuntal line, there seems to be less emphasis on hitting the one than finding the through path through the other parts played by other musicians. But I always found his sense of time to be impeccable, especially noticeable in the stuff in 7 and 10 - he's actually playing in those time sigs, not just doing 5+2 or 4+4+2, even in the extended jams during with some of the other players are basically playing in 4 and eventually doing catchup to the top of a bar. My 2 cents, your mileage may vary. :)
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Great !!!
Gentleman , your nothing short of a "Bottomless Pit" of knowledge!!!! Much appreciated :D :D
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I'm not nearly the bass player as the folks in this crowd, or enough to even understand a lot of this conversation, but playing with a newgrass band that covers a lot of Grateful Dead tunes, (ironically, tunes where the Grateful Dead were covering bluegrass standards...) what I've found most interesting is how he approaches things thematically. In my situation, there (usually) is no drummer, so the other rhythm components of mandolin and guitar depend on me to not only play the ones, but to accentuate them. So to sell some of their tunes in a believable way, I kinda' have to at least borrow from passages Phil Lesh plays. But again- it's often enough to tune into what thematic course he was playing through and just pull a couple textures. I really didn't get it for a long time... I have a lot more appreciation these days.
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Amazing as this might sound, I have found these posts to be particularly inspiring!!
What really comes through for me here is a simple reminder to "Be Yourself" & don't loose sight of it.
It brings to mind another valuable lesson "have fun" !!! Trust me, When I first started I wasn't having any fun !!! That's the truth !!!
I can only speak for myself, but, my practice sessions were only about striving to reach a certain amount of proficiency, just to get everything right, and eventually interpret what was written on the page, No joy in it what so ever !!!!
The pulse wound up being quite a "game changer" for me !!!
All the best Gentleman.
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Playing "on the one" might mean different things to different people. For instance, Bootsy was famous for playing "on the one" because James Brown told him to play on the one (or so my always suspect memory tells me), meaning that the emphasis for the bass line, in James Brown's band, was always the down beat. As Bootsy would say, "it all starts on the one, baby".
I take a different view to Bootsy and to some of the remarks posted above.
In my view, there can be compositions where the bass line, or bass instrument, doesn't have to be confined to providing a rhythmic underpinning (nor, for that matter, is there necessarily a need for drums). It seems to me, that "bass" can be said to be a frequency range, differing significantly in range from, say, a mandolin. But a bass instrument can be providing melodic content within that frequency range. And while it is doing so, a guitar, for instance, can provide rhythmic content.
(One interesting example that just came to mind is Jaco Pastorius playing with Joni Mitchell.)
And as for being "on the one", I think lots of interesting things can be played in a group setting where the bass line starts on the two, or the upbeat of the two; or where the guitar player is playing in four while the bass player is playing in five. There are seemingly endless possibilities for musical expression.
There need not necessarily be any hard and fast rule that says that the bass player has to always be on the one; unless you want to keep your job and the bandleader insists on it; like with Bootsy in James Brown's band.
:)
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TREMENDOUS INSIGHT DAVE!!!!
THANK YOU!!!!! :D :D :D
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I don't have time to find the passage right now, but I have read - I think in Phil's book - about the Dead coming to the conclusion that the one was where you felt it, and everybody could play a different one in such a way that that the whole band "felt" the overall one in the same place - or something like that (hey, I fingerpick cowboy chords in my office; this stuff is way above my pay grade!)
Peter
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I spent a lot of drive-time last weekend listening to the 5/8/77 Barton Hall show, and found the 16 minutes worth of "Dancin' in the Streets" to be a master-class tutorial. Can't get it outta' my head now. :)
Plenty of ones there, just spaced out a little.
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Welcome aboard the bus...enjoy the ride! :)
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Plenty of ones there, just spaced out a little.
That sorta sums up their following too ;D
.... the conclusion that the one was where you felt it....
...At times it's just seems Furthur to the other ones, ::)
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This always gets to an interesting area of just what is he thinking? I have always thought that he is not really avoiding the one,
I feel like his concept is he is not thinking in terms of 4/4, he is thinking beyond a single measure, to 3,4,5 measures and beyond.
I may be confusing my '77 gigs, but, if you listen to Estimated from this time, he is playing figures that are multiple measures long. It almost seems
he does not "turn around" for 14, 21 or 28 beats instead of 7 beats.
I seem to remember an interview a number of years back that they would experiment with them playing in different time signatures and tracking when
they all would return to the one. Of course, Phil has always had extraordinary feel for odd times. As for me, "I am only an egg."
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This always gets to an interesting area of just what is he thinking? I have always thought that he is not really avoiding the one,
I feel like his concept is he is not thinking in terms of 4/4, he is thinking beyond a single measure, to 3,4,5 measures and beyond.
[snip] It almost seems he does not "turn around" for 14, 21 or 28 beats instead of 7 beats.
Years ago I saw an interview with Bob & Jerry where they talked about Phil's playing (J: "You figure out what he's doing and tailgate him, and he'll hear it and change it up." B (laughing): "Yeah, he'll de-tailgate you!").
They said that you don't hear an 8- or 12-bar pattern, so you think he's not playing one - then you speed up a tape & realize that he is - it's just something like a 63-bar pattern.
Peter
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I have never quite engaged in an analysis of Phil's playing style - I have heard a few people who have been able to incorporate some of the Phil Zone into their playing (Edwin, Wolf & Stephen come to mind) - to me he tends not to play what a "normal bassist" would play. In fact, I had a couple of lessons with Kai Eckhardt and he said he thinks that Phil does everything that he teaches his students not to do! I think that's an over-exaggeration but there's something to it as well - I saw Phil play at Terrapin Crossroads a while back and they played "Proud Mary" - during one of the turnarounds he seemed to be noodling around, not hitting the strong notes with the rest of the band - I remember being kind of disappointed - but at the end he did hit them, and they seemed to have more weight that way.
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.. but at the end he did hit them, and they seemed to have more weight that way.
And if FOH is paying attention to Phil's ins and outs...we get those wonderful Phil Bombs,
like a huge velvet sledgehammer ;)
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I've always thought Phil's playing was perfect for the bands he played with. When I've seen him sit in other people's stuff, there's that Proud Mary noodley turnaround stuff that you pointed out. He wouldn't be my first call studio player or cover band player :) But he's mind blowing on the stuff with the Dead and his own bands, and i've learned so much about how to play from listening to and, probably more, feeling what and when he's playing and not playing.
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To me, it seems Phil approaches the bass almost as a lead, or co-lead, instrument. Bobby also often departs from classic rhythm guitar to almost playing lead, or co-lead, with chord voicings and rhythmic strumming, (Bobby has a helluva right hand). Add that to Jerry, the keys, and drums and you get several co-lead instruments conversing back and forth in a Dixieland jazz fashion. As a "Bobby" player, it is especially fun for me when I play with bassists like Wolf, Edwin, and Stephen who approach the bass' place in the band similarly to Phil. Of course that formula thrives in a jam band setting, but doesn't work for a classic rock band and many other genres. Judging Phil on studio bassist standards is the proverbial apples and oranges.
Just my $.02
Bill, tgo
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No, Harry, Phil doesn't do what a normal bassist does - because he's not one.
He started on classical violin as a child, moved to the jazz trumpet as a teen, and studied modern composition in college; he picked up bass after he became the Dead's bass player, and developed his style not by studying bass or listening to bassists, but by playing bass (from the aforementioned training) while tripping his brains out.
Peter
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The Dead allowed Phil the freedom to be himself and the result defined their sound.
If you listen closely to the various stylistic periods they explored - blues, R&B and dance (mid-60's) to psychedelia (late 60's) to country and traditional (early 70's) to fusion ('73 - '76) to what could be called pop and more structured compositions - at least for them - (late 70's - on), the bass and it's interaction with the percussion, IMO, was the defining instrumental force.
The rest of the group reacted and adapted to that foundation and welcomed the boundaries that were pushed and then collectively redefined.
If Phil would have been playing with musicians who were expecting him to play traditionally, or who were not open to adapting to his stylistic and theoretical "challenges", the result would have been much less successful.
His intentional unpredictability generates the energy that is required to inspire a group of open-minded musicians to creatively perform improvisational music.
"Keep It Weird" - INDEED!
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A good exercise - get together with some musical friends and play "Friend of the Devil". Then immediately play the Dead's version on your stereo, loud. Compare your bass line to Phil's. Weep, and repeat until you understand Phil's style. Good luck. Thanks
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A good exercise - get together with some musical friends and play "Friend of the Devil". Then immediately play the Dead's version on your stereo, loud. Compare your bass line to Phil's. Weep, and repeat until you understand Phil's style. Good luck. Thanks
This is why we need a "Like" button.
Peter
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I found this a while ago but never managed to wade through the whole thing - the author engages in some cryptic academic-speak but if you look beyond that he makes some good points (though I still haven't read the entire thing all the way through) that mirrors some of what has been said here. Here's an excerpt:
Lesh’s playing, in a general sense, relies on long, non-repeating phrases composed of series of brief melodic figures which swing around the main harmonic downbeats, forming obtuse counter melodies to the implied central melody. At times the bass melody gives the impression that it knows in advance the harmonic changes to come and is playing through them irreverently while offering comment on the guitarists’ more conventional interpretations of the same progression. Rhythm guitarist Bob Weir observed that Lesh “can hear you thinking and make sure he’s not supplying what you’re expecting” (Jackson 260), while Garcia noted that “the required stuff is about one percent of what he plays” (261). Seldom does Lesh articulate a chord change with a root-note punch on time, or support a specific guitar riff rhythmically. Most significantly, Lesh’s unpredictable phrasing pushes all the band members to “dance around” their expected parts, creating a kind of generative absence at the center of the band’s arrangements.
http://www.popular-musicology-online.com/issues/04/wood-01.html (http://www.popular-musicology-online.com/issues/04/wood-01.html)
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... generative absence at the center ...
So, does he mean that at the center there is an absence of a generative principal, or does he mean that the absence itself is the generative principal?
:)
(I think the absence itself is the generative principal)
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Like voltage maybe?
(where there is a noticeable absence of electrons)
Kris
(who likes analogies)
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... forming obtuse counter melodies to the implied central melody. ...
Speaking of phrases and such - that one ^^^ is just fun to say. I need to find away to slip that into a casual conversation. :-D
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Like voltage maybe?
(where there is a noticeable absence of electrons)
Ah; it's all about energy, and the connections made therein.
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Ah; it's all about energy, and the connections made therein.
if I may add too that;
...and really nice with graceful instruments at hand ;D
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I get the impression that at times he takes more of a symphonic approach, with bass parts sort of like those of a bass section in an orchestra with counter melodies weaving through the piece that still provide foundational support. I think songs like The Other One, Weather Report Suite, Terrapin Station, Playin’ in the Band, Here Comes Sunshine, Unbroken Chain, Dark Star, New Potato Caboose, and Crazy Fingers are a few examples of this, at least that’s my impression. In addition, part of what I enjoy about his playing is his ability to mix various styles (e.g., rock, jazz, blues, country/bluegrass, classical), and the substitution of the unknown or unexpected for the expected, which keeps it fun and interesting.
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:)
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Re: "Friend of the Devil" exercise - I've tried that.
His opening bass riff is enough to derail you right off. Where did THAT come from - ?
It's perfect and I can't imagine hearing the song without it, but it's certainly not what 99.9% of the bassists on this planet would choose to play - or be asked / allowed to play in that context.
I wish I could've been present at the rehearsal when he unleashed that little gem on the rest of the band...
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I went and listened to the studio cut of "Friend of the Devil". Found it interesting that in a live version from 1983 he still plays a variation on the same thing. Love that early-80's version btw... I'm so used to the literal translation newgrass-y way Harwell-Grice Band does it that the slower mellowed-out pace is a fun switch.
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“Allowed to play”? Bass players (and everyone else for that matter) should be free to play whatever pops into their heads. :)
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Here's a wonderful video of an '83 Friend of the Devil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrwJVaE5ugc); this may be the one you mentioned.
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Bass players .. should be free to play whatever pops into their heads. :)
In the rule book, that one's right before "bass players can turn down the guitar players amp whenever the bass player finds it necessary to do so". Or it was until the bass players' union was outlawed, and the singers and guitar players fought for dominance in the galactic music wars during the age of disharmony. Then during the great hearing loss plague, musicians began seeking out the wisdom of the bass players, and a new harmonic paradigm began to emerge.
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Here's a wonderful video of an '83 Friend of the Devil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrwJVaE5ugc); this may be the one you mentioned.
Yessir, that's the one. :)
I gotta' forward that one to Josh and the guys.
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Ahh, but never forget the rule of the jungle when the ominous sound of restless drums filters through the primordial vegetation. Where all in the know fear the cessation of the relentless pounding skins. As those who have experienced the primitive basics of survival are only too aware, the drums bring with them a great anticipation suggested by an ancient instinctual fear. For, when the drums stop, bass solo!
Bill, tgo
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Re: "allowed to play" - when I am playing bass, I try to take as many chances as I can within a given context and, in the spirit of Mr. Lesh (a huge inspiration to me, along with Mr. Casady), I try to push the boundaries of whatever musical framework I am associated with.
On more than one occasion, I've been told this, or something very similar: "The songs we are playing were / are popular for a reason. It is not our responsibility to re-invent our individual parts on the fly as we see fit. Learn your part and play it like the recording."
Needless to say, I tend to lose interest in those projects fairly quickly...
If Phil would have received that admonishment and behaved as instructed, we would not be having this lively discussion.
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Bill,
I grew up in garage bands in the 70s and bar jam bands in the 80s, so I have a mental image of your narrative branded forever in my memory!
David T, I know what you are saying. For my most recent stint with a funk band last month I was told exactly what to play. It was fun none-the-less, but I still found myself inserting fills now and then, subconsciously my brain makes my fingers do it.
I play jazz mostly now, so after the first pass through the form I’m free to add to the musical conversation as I see fit, which I find more enriching personally. During a show I saw last year, Rufus Reed said one of the great things about playing bass is that you are soloing and improvising the entire time; I like that :)
Here is another nice Friend of the Devil...
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Thanks, Rob; that is indeed a nice one!
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Here's a wonderful video of an '83 Friend of the Devil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrwJVaE5ugc); this may be the one you mentioned.
That was really enjoyable... was that whole show that magical?
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Here's a wonderful video of an '83 Friend of the Devil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrwJVaE5ugc) ...
That was really enjoyable... was that whole show that magical?
I don't think I've watched the whole show, (if I have, I don't remember).
Here it is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8IJCcC84hs), if you want to check it out.
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Glad to see this thread still active..
Stupid question time...I never really gave much thought to his technique when it came to dropping bombs..I always thought it was just a matter of volume/attack...the quote below (from Reddit) makes me think otherwise though..is there more involved than volume/attack?
"Most people's definition of a Phil Bomb is vastly different than what we used to define a Phil Bomb as .... at least when I was on tour, they were very rare and far between ... not something that happened in the videos others have listed such as the Morning Dew video. Phil Bombs were somewhat rare occurrences when Phil would slam a note or chords very loudly and the bass would overwhelm the stadium and reverberate loudly. The bomb did not fit in with the sound levels of the band as it was overwhelming and quickly gone ... It usually sounded like his compressor or other limiters failed and was unintentional and other times it sounded like there was just a brief moment of too much gain and the notes screamed .... I only heard a few Phil bombs in my life and they were very few and far between. Sometimes he was really slamming and trying to get loud and one would pop out but it seemed like most of the time they were accidental as technically, they sound crew want to avoid such an overload of sound from any one instrument or voice ... Phil Bombs pretty much drowned out most of the other sound for that brief moment.... The stadium they were in played a role acoustically as well .... When you heard a Phil bomb, pretty much everybody would gasp and roar ... it wasn't like "oh, nice chord Phil, that was loud ... " ... it was f***ING loud and pretty out of control for that brief moment ... you could NOT miss it. Many late 90s shows had infamously low volume (UNLV comes to mind), so it was even easier for a real Phil Bomb to dominate ..."
[edited for unintentional formatting]
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Thanks for the link Dave.
Interesting quote Gregory, looking forward to others replies.
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The one Phil Bomb I heard seemed to be intentional. I think I have related this before, but what the heck - if an old fart can't repeat himself, what's the point of becoming an old fart?
Uptown Theater, Chicago, Dec 5, '79 . the boys are cooking along on "The Other One". At the point where, if Bob was singing, it would have been "that's when it all began" it was "beganWHAM!" I mean, Phil hit this chord - no, that's wrong; I meant to say Phil did an 1/8-note rest then hit this ....CHORD!.... and I swear to you on Pigpen's grave, every single molecule in the entire freaking universe resonated!!! The Uptown picked up the frequency so we felt it in the mezzanine floor - and they probably heard in Gary from the building reverberating to it.
It was truly transcendent.
Peter (who firmly believes that Lesh is more)
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The one Phil Bomb I heard seemed to be intentional... <snip> ...I mean, Phil hit this chord - no, that's wrong; I meant to say Phil did an 1/8-note rest then hit this ....CHORD!.... and I swear to you on Pigpen's grave, every single molecule in the entire freaking universe resonated!!! The Uptown picked up the frequency so we felt it in the mezzanine floor - and they probably heard in Gary from the building reverberating to it.
It was truly transcendent.
Peter (who firmly believes that Lesh is more)
Well... now at least I know what to do when I want to get the HGB guys' attention from back there in my spot... ;D (and I'll explain to them later it was in tribute to Phil)
Do we know for sure if they are purely spontaneous events, that weren't getting help from the FOH guys? I find this whole discussion fascinating! :)
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While Dan did dabble (way too much, IMO) in things beyond accurate reproduction of what they played, I don't see how he could have known when to do anything to enhance this; as I said, it was the only time I heard it, and I think Dan was at the board for every show I saw, so I'm going to say completely spontaneous & 100% the work of Mr. P. Chapman Lesh (I mean, do we really see Phil & Dan talking pre-show like "OK, Dan, I'm going to hit a chord at measure xx of the yy time through, so crank me for 2 seconds then." "Got it, Phil - hey, are you coming on yet? Bear really outdid himself this time!")
Peter.
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Yeah, I guess that'd be a tall order! ;D
I was working the main board at a bluegrass festival one time while the hypoglycemic sound-guy was trying to get straightened out after some poor choices he'd made... anyway, he showed me how to 'stuff' the slider on Del McCoury's rhythm guitar mic just at the right moment for an effect. You could see Del grin from 100' away when he snapped a G-run.
Phil's a little, (make that a lot) less predictable. ::)
Clearly, I have a lot more listening to do. 8)
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Yeah - a guy I did sound for in 2 bands (plays pretty much anything that you don't bow or beat, but in those groups limited himself to vocals, guitar, sax, keys, flute, & mouth organ) has "Harlem Nocturne" as his signature tune. He'd blow the Selmer and I'd ride the fader, reverb, & Space Echo, and together we did some nice stuff, if I do say so myself. I can't imagine trying to doing that with Phil (who, I do believe, was the only one Bralove didn't do MIDI for; don't blame him a bit!)
Peter
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We would have a good laugh when Phil would drop a bomb followed by the sound of PA speakers frying and fizzling out... ah the good old days :)
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Rather than start a new thread, thought I'd bump this one, with a question I swear borne of pure, innocent, ignorance...
Has Phil ever played his bass fingerstyle, or is he strictly a pickstyle player, and always been? I can't tell.
In a desperate effort to keep my head into music instead of some other unpleasant distractions, I have immersed myself into volumes of Grateful Dead music from the various eras. Currently I'm hung up on Dick's Picks, Volume 3. The bass (whichever he's playing... (guess it could be either or both Big Brown and Mission Control in '77?) is so much easier to hear than some of the other stuff I have available, that I have been playing it in a loop.
I'm actually surprising myself... by golly, I can play those lines... though admittedly, it's much easier for me to do them with my fingers than a pick, but that started me wondering how you guys approach something like that, in practice.
A couple more questions...
Does it matter to you for authenticity's sake?
Is it just easier to replicate certain passages with a pick, simply because that's the way they were rendered?
~Ed of H (trying to not overthink this, but very much interested...)
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In 1970/71 Phil used to sometimes play his Gibson SG bass fingerstyle though he also played fingerstyle before and after that. Seem to remember some tunes in 73 where he played the Godfather fingerstyle, it always gave him a deep round tone. He got a pretty amazing tone out of that SG bass despite its limitations as an instrument but of course the electronics had been heavily modified for him by Alembic.
There are a couple of pictures of Phil playing his SG bass fingerstyle on this TalkBass page.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/phil-leshs-early-sg-bass.809742/ (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/phil-leshs-early-sg-bass.809742/)
Not sure authenticity matters unless you are trying to be authentic which is a difficult thing to do when trying to emulate his playing. Over the course of his career Phil's sound has never stayed 100% consistent and his approach to the tunes changes gig to gig. So so you can either chase the sound of the bass, chase the spirit of the music or both but IMO the spirit and vibe is way more important. There are so many bass players playing Dead music now and I still don't think I have ever heard anyone who sounds and plays 100% like Phil. His approach is totally unique, the combo of musical theory, technique, control of the tone of his instrument and his ability to hear and react to music in a way that only his brain is capable of processing. There are tons of bass players that can play circles around Phil technically but they could never think the way he does.
The fun thing about playing Dead music is that you can add your own spin and if you are getting off and helping to shape and make the music happen the audience is going to pick up on that and dig it.
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This video has been posted on the club board before, but Phil plays finger style on the first tune, Bertha.
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Thanks Steve and Rob. 8)
The fun thing about playing Dead music is that you can add your own spin and if you are getting off and helping to shape and make the music happen the audience is going to pick up on that and dig it.
I'm starting to 'get' that... :)
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I'm actually surprising myself... by golly, I can play those lines...
Which is very very cool! His lines are so unique, and not always very natural if you didn't grow up being him.
I saw Cream at their last NYC show and told an old friend, with some pride, "I can totally play like Jack Bruce." He replied, "Yeah, but he invented it." :)
I try to remember that when i start feeling too good about playing some of Phil's stuff. I'm amazed that I can do it, but...
Now I find it kind of freeing - it's like i have permission to try something different - he invented what he's playing, but I can be inspired and still do something different.
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Yep that is the genius of these pioneering players, they developed a style that we follow on from and hopefully absorb and create something new.
Many times when I am battling on with learning some of Stanley's return to forever bass lines I think about the age that he was when he was creating those lines and playing like he did back then, still in his early 20's so no wonder he is still a legend. I have only known who Phil Lesh is from my participation on this site and since Bill tgo, in particular, encouraged me to listen to the Grateful Dead. So now I know a little bit about his playing and enjoy listening to his playing on you tube.
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I saw Cream at their last NYC show and told an old friend, with some pride, "I can totally play like Jack Bruce." He replied, "Yeah, but he invented it." :)
My last full-time truckdriving boss played lead in a hair-metal band. One morning I mentioned how pumped I was from listening to B.B. on the way in.
"Ehhh - all he does is play standard blues licks" quoth the lad.
(After picking my jaw off the floor from disbelief): "Dude - who do you think made them standard??!?!?"
Countless player are good, and even great - but few are innovative. Mr. Lesh & Mr. King are among the last group fo sho.
Peter
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To piggy back on Mavnet and JazzyVee’s comments; you guys are absolutely correct... these fore fathers developed “their” style.
This is why the late great Allen Woody is one of my heroes, you can hear where he took some Larry Graham, Paul McCartney, Jack Bruce, etc. etc. and made all of them into “his” style. That is how I view my style, a gumbo of bass inspirations.
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I recently purchased the "Pacific Northwest '73-'74: Believe It If You Need It" 3-CD set compiled from the 19-CD box set. Reminds me that this is absolutely one of my favorite eras of the Dead - some really fresh, interesting jams, the instruments sound great, incredible interaction between the players.
First thing: I noticed my disc 1 was skipping but put off returning it - looking at the comments on the website it looks like maybe it's a fault in the replication, and perhaps ALL of the disc 1's skip in the same place! Buyer beware, but I think the music and performances are good enough to be worth it (unless of course they figure out a way to distribute new versions)
It's been fun and challenging playing along with it. Some of the tunes I know well and have played in bands, others for the first time or not in a long time. I finally stopped playing so that I could just listen to Phil interacting with everyone. One thing I realized - maybe I've said this before - is that Phil just doesn't play what a typical or "normal" bassist would. Sometimes it almost seems like he's going to play a traditional r&b kind of line, but then he goes way up, to a higher octave or to the 5th or some other degree of the scale that normally you "shouldn't" play as a supportive bass player. And of course it's all part of the web that the whole band weaves - sometimes Jerry is the only just strumming the chords, everyone else is almost playing "around" the song.
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I heard someone - I think it was Bobby, but it's been a few decades now, so no promises on that - say that playing with Phil you spend a lot of time going "What is he doing??" Then you go back and listen to the tape - and then you speed it up, and you realize "Oh, that's it - he is playing a repeating line; it's just 38 bars long."
Also remember Bob & Jer talking about trying to figure out what Phil was, ad when you do "you start to tailgate on that - but he'll hear you do that and change it up." "Yeah; he'll detailgate you".
Peter
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I recently purchased the "Pacific Northwest '73-'74: Believe It If You Need It" 3-CD set compiled from the 19-CD box set. Reminds me that this is absolutely one of my favorite eras of the Dead - some really fresh, interesting jams, the instruments sound great, incredible interaction between the players.
First thing: I noticed my disc 1 was skipping but put off returning it - looking at the comments on the website it looks like maybe it's a fault in the replication, and perhaps ALL of the disc 1's skip in the same place! Buyer beware, but I think the music and performances are good enough to be worth it (unless of course they figure out a way to distribute new versions)
It's been fun and challenging playing along with it. Some of the tunes I know well and have played in bands, others for the first time or not in a long time. I finally stopped playing so that I could just listen to Phil interacting with everyone. One thing I realized - maybe I've said this before - is that Phil just doesn't play what a typical or "normal" bassist would. Sometimes it almost seems like he's going to play a traditional r&b kind of line, but then he goes way up, to a higher octave or to the 5th or some other degree of the scale that normally you "shouldn't" play as a supportive bass player. And of course it's all part of the web that the whole band weaves - sometimes Jerry is the only just strumming the chords, everyone else is almost playing "around" the song.
hmmm...link to comments section where disc skipping is discussed? Is dead.net replacing them?
I bought the 19 CD set and haven't opened mine yet, been too busy.
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I heard someone - I think it was Bobby, but it's been a few decades now, so no promises on that - say that playing with Phil you spend a lot of time going "What is he doing??" Then you go back and listen to the tape - and then you speed it up, and you realize "Oh, that's it - he is playing a repeating line; it's just 38 bars long."
Also remember Bob & Jer talking about trying to figure out what Phil was, ad when you do "you start to tailgate on that - but he'll hear you do that and change it up." "Yeah; he'll detailgate you".
Peter
I think the speed up quote was actually from Jerry - but don't quote me on that!
hmmm...link to comments section where disc skipping is discussed? Is dead.net replacing them?
I bought the 19 CD set and haven't opened mine yet, been too busy.
https://store.dead.net/special-edition-shops/pnw-73-74/pacific-northwest-73-74-believe-it-if-you-need-it.html (https://store.dead.net/special-edition-shops/pnw-73-74/pacific-northwest-73-74-believe-it-if-you-need-it.html)
Scroll down and click on comments bottom-right
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A question about the "Phil Bomb": if he could drop these powerful sound bombs at will, is it correct that he was normally playing softly and a very high volume? If so, it would explain something about his tone.
PS: My first post in this 'new' forum.
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No help with specifics on Phil's Bombs, (though your theory seems plausible to me) but Welcome. I was wondering about that Test Post. :)
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A question about the "Phil Bomb": if he could drop these powerful sound bombs at will, is it correct that he was normally playing softly and a very high volume? If so, it would explain something about his tone.
PS: My first post in this 'new' forum.
I think there were a number of aspects as to how he got the bombs. My guess, through trial and error, is that they are from attack but also pickup selection and EQ. Also, Healy, out at front of house, had pedals that would send things to a subharmonic synthesizer for extra oomph. I have a dbx unit from the 80s and I used it sparingly, especially after one FOH engineer was about to drag me into an alley and beat me up for putting his subs at risk. I finally got it through to him that he had final control over what came out of the PA. Sheesh. However, I've discovered over the years that they aren't really necessary.
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A question about the "Phil Bomb": if he could drop these powerful sound bombs at will, is it correct that he was normally playing softly and a very high volume? If so, it would explain something about his tone.
PS: My first post in this 'new' forum.
I've often wondered this myself...I always attributed it to dynamics and when I try to drop bombs thats generally how I do it...