Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: southpaw on October 11, 2017, 11:10:39 AM
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Hi All,
I noticed recently the class D heads are getting smaller, louder, more features and cheaper. What an amazing change in music electronics since most of us started playing.
I currently have an Eden WTX 260 bass head that I really enjoy, it is quite a few years old but works great. I may purchase another micro amp.
This leads me to ask for opinions and recommendations on the latest class D amps from our gang here at the club.
It appears most manufacturers have expanded into this area for some years now. Your thoughts and experience are appreciated. Thanks.
- Southpaw
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Well, I am a guitar player, but I've been playing an F-2B into a Carvin DCM200L class D power amp for a couple of years now. My back and I both love it. Stereo, switchable to either 60 or 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms. One rack space, 4 lbs.! I also recently picked up one of Vox's new MV50 mini amps. Nu-tube preamp (a super miniature tube developed by Korg) and a class D power amp. 25 watts into 8 ohms, 50 watts into 4 ohms. Weighs about one pound and fits in the palm of your hand. And it's a real amp!!!! Big thumbs up on Class D.
You might want to check out Carvin. They are closing down everything but guitars and having a big going-out-of-business sale. Currently everything is 25% off, and I wouldn't be surprised to see even bigger discounts as they clear stuff out.
Bill, tgo
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Thanks Bill, it's good to hear guitar guys enjoying to perks of light weight technology too. Wow, 4 pounds and 1 pound amps nice.
Tube pre amps are suppose to help provide a warm sound too. I think the cabinet also plays a big part.
Yes, I see the Carvin sale, I may grab a small micro bass head for giggles, you can't beat the price. I think the F-2B helps make any amp sound better. It is truly a long way from the days of the Ampeg SVT 100 lbs. cabinets. I was in Nashville last year and noticed most guitar / bass players in the bars using small heads on small cabinets but still produced huge sound. Be safe Bill, we are keeping our California friends in our prayers these days. If you see flames, run!
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Love my Carvin BX500... not as small as other class D but filled with fine features as defeatable tube pre, semi parametric Eq, graphic Eq, built in "overeasy" compressor, contour, drive and volume for DI. And, cheap!
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Ive been gigging with the Mesa Boogie D-800 Subway with a Bergantino CN212. 800 watts and a 46lbs cab sounds amazing and loud! I sometimes use my F2B / SF2 rack going into the aux in of the Mesa.
Have to admit I was a bit skeptical at first when looking for a backup to my Mesa Walkabout but I'm a big fan of this amp. So is my back! ;)
Worth a look you'll be surprised
Good luck, peace
Pete
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I played through a D800 Subway for the California run of shows and I have to say that I loved it. Great sounding amp, much more authority than my Eden WXT500 and even lighter. I would definitely recommend it.
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While not at the point where I would have a class D power amp as my only choice, when I had the opportunity to check out a D800 I definitely liked it a lot. A friend was supplying backline for the Shakedown Street Festival in Berkeley last year. He was bringing an Aguilar rig, which Wolf played out of and if I remember correctly liked, and a D800 to have a spare head just in case. I wasn't that into the sound of the Aguilar for what I like to hear. I ran the D800 through the two Aguilar cabinets and thought it sounded close to what I was looking for. Ended up using my preamp running into the aux input of the D800 with the Aguilar cabinets since I felt more comfortable using the tone and EQ controls I was used to. I was definitely impressed with the sound and portability factor, thought it would be a nice amp to have around.
I currently own an Acoustic Image CodaR and have been very happy with it for low volume situations where I need something small and extremely portable. Less than 20 lbs with the speakers.
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As the resident roadie, allow me to put forth the idea that Class D is evil; you all need tubes - lots of them, with huge freakin' transformers! Keep the kwipies working! ;D
Peter (who is apparently in total denial about any correlation between years of lifting amp racks, pianos, & B-3s and those 2 back surgeries)
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Randall Smith and Mesa will quickly tell you that the first amp they made was a bass amp. Over the years, they have steadily turned into quite a force in bass rigs, and 800 / 800+ are hits, riding the Class D amp / neo cab wave. Their tube amps are my-t-fine as well.
For a Neanderthal like me who easily remembers folded 18 cabs and 80# SVT heads (or Heaven help us, those 150# Macs), it is utterly amazing to see what has now become common today. I've been jealous my whole life that a &%*#( guitar player could show up with a guitar and a single 12, 100w amp and he's ready to go, while I was in the furniture moving business to try and compete on stage. Interestingly, I'm almost there now.
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I have the Carvin BX250, love it, it's now out of stock. The BX 500 is similar (adds a graphic EQ, more power, get one now before they are gone).
I also have a GK MB200. very small and sexy, but it's been in the shop twice, so I don;t fully trust it. It's been fine for several years, and I bring it as a backup.
Both are great for bar gigs.
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"Randall Smith and Mesa will quickly tell you that the first amp they made was a bass amp."
I thought his first was a modded Princeton Reverb that he did as a joke. Carlos Santana heard it and said "that little amp really boogies", and the rest is history. At least that's what I've heard.
Bill, tgo
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You are correct Bill. The Mesa Boogie website under 'Randall's Story' - the first amp Randall built was a modified Fender Princeton, as a prank on Barry Melton of Country Joe and the Fish. Carlos Santana played it and said "...That little thing really Boogies!”. Good reading. The Subway 800 looks amazing. Mesa's appear to be top shelf, I love what I have heard, they are a bit pricey, understandably for the quality. BigRedBass, I love your comment; "while I was in the furniture moving business to try and compete on stage." ;D The memory of dragging around my first amp, A Peavey TNT 50 watt cabinet as a young teen, a beast it was! What an amazing journey we have witnessed in the past few decades in amplification.
Amps are also safer electrically. I have a friend who collects old amps and I see the cloth power cords with no ground, old, frayed... Not at my house, plug them in and play them at your house! Great info guys, thanks. - Southpaw
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I love Mesa amps. I played through a Mark III combo for over 20 years. I still have a Mark IIC+ head. I stopped playing the Mesa amp when I started playing my first Alembic, an Electrum. For some reason I find that Alembic guitars just seem to match better with Fender-type amps. I'm really happy with my current setup, using the Fender-based F-2B.
Bill, tgo
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As the resident roadie, allow me to put forth the idea that Class D is evil; you all need tubes - lots of them, with huge freakin' transformers!
I tend to live in that world myself. I own a '74 SVT head and a '96 SVT III Pro (5 tubes in the pre, solid state power). They are the be-all, end-all of tone in my opinion. However, a year ago, I picked up a used Genz Benz Streamliner 900. 900 watts at 6.5 pounds. And 3 tubes! ;D It's a nice little amp. I still prefer the Ampegs, but it's a great option for some gigs. Class D is a real thing now found in top of the line pro audio power amps.
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I was just checking out the D800 Plus. The plus model adds an effects loop, way more robust EQ section, bright switch and a high-pass filter. The only thing it is missing for my needs is a stereo power section with a balance control. I like to mix speaker cabinets. With my F2-B and a stereo power amp I have control of gain and tone for each cabinet and is a killer basic rig. My Eden Navigator has a balance control which makes it play nice with two different cabinets when using a stereo power amp, robust EQ and an effects loop or sidechain that I can use with my SF-2, still the most versatile pre-amp I own. I do love the sound of and simplicity of the F2-B, though.
Been very happy with the sound and whomp I get with my Crest CA6 and have been thinking about getting a Crest ProLite amp for times when I want to use something more compact but this newer version of the D800 sure looks like a contender, too.
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I've been using the Bugera Veyron Mosfet and really like it. Of course the 2000 watt rating on this thing is marketing weaselspeak, but it's certainly got plenty of power, somewhere in the 600-800 watt range by my ears (none of my test gear will keep a class D power amp happy under test situations). I A/B'd it with the D800 (which is surprisingly affordable, actually) and actually liked the Bugera better.
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So I’m wondering if class D amps are better suited for guitar than bass, since guitars generally require less power for equal volume (if that’s the correct way to state it)? Like Bill, I have the DCM200L & F-2B set up that I use for guitar and it’s plenty loud and warm (with the F-2B) for my needs.
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I use a Stewart Class D amp to follow the F-1X. There is plenty of overhead for bass.
BTW, it was the only amp in the rack that kept running on a hot day in the sun (all the mackies went thermal :o ).
In a youtube vid, Randall mentions his start modding fenders, he charged a dollar a
minute,most mods would take 6 or 7 minutes...so if he was going to make any money,
he'd have to build 'em from scratch.
I have one of those early snakeskin Bass 130 heads, at one point it was in the San Francisco Goodwill Bin !!
I think my Stewart amp is 17lbs. , still way better for challenging stairways than the Sunn2000s.
+1 for good Class 'D' amps.
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my Class D amp, Carvin B1000 and two Phil Jones Bass C8 Cabinets
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Correction: The first 'Boogie' made for sale, and not a modded Fender:
http://www.mesaboogie.com/amplitudes/2013/September/the-first-mesa-the-bass-450-by-randall-smith.html
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Class D are better suited for those who doesn't want to carry a ton each time need to go to a gig or rehearsal. Despite the I have love for my Carvin BX500, there is nothing like a full tube driven amp (pre and power). Their compression and harmonic enhancement when pushed makes them unsurpass, but some need to compromise sometimes. I don't want to ruin my back and can't afford a roadie everytime.
The good news is that they finally learned how to make those class D amps efficient to reproduce low frequencies.
ps.: Have to mention that it had hard times in some poorly grounded venues. It stoped for a brief moment, like 10 seconds, but imagine how was geting mutted in a middle of a song for that lapse.
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Been very happy with the sound and whomp I get with my Crest CA6 and have been thinking about getting a Crest ProLite amp for times when I want to use something more compact but this newer version of the D800 sure looks like a contender, too.
I love my ProLite 3.0, so I highly recommend it. I would just caution you about running bridged. I have a smoked K140 and Faital driver as evidence of its prodigious output. Oops.
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Love my little Demeter Minnie 800D - weighs nothing, pushes a lot of air quite cleanly. Using either F2B or a pedal version "F2B" from Bucharest to drive it, with a Cali76 Compact Deluxe between the bass and the preamp.
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I love my ProLite 3.0, so I highly recommend it. I would just caution you about running bridged. I have a smoked K140 and Faital driver as evidence of its prodigious output. Oops.
I thought you had a Peavey IPR that you were happy with? Didn't realize you had gotten a Crest.
I have never run a power amp in bridged mode and don't plan to start but thanks for the warning. The ProLite 3.0 has been looking good to me but I am reluctant to ditch my CA6. Sounds great and the low end is massive. Part of me would love to lose the extra weight and get something more portable but must admit I have a low regard for anything digital. To me digital = disposable at the point when the technology moves on or the device breaks and there are no longer parts available to fix it. I certainly would enjoy having a chance to give the ProLite a test run, though.
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Not a fan of class D amps. I have owned a bunch of the small amps going back as far as my high power Walter Woods. I have also owned the pinnacle of class D power amps like the Powersoft K2. In every instance, the sound is shrill and edgy on the top end. They also do not produce as solid a low end to my ear. They tend to sound distorted to me. I keep a 2000 watt Bugera Veyron in the car when I go to gigs as a backup, but it will never replace my A/B power amps for quality of tone and response. I just started using a class H amp which is basically a version of an A/B amp, and it has been excellent. One thing about switching amps is they are light weight like a class D, but because they have no massive transformer in them, they are more sensitive to power variations which can trigger the safety circuits. I was on a gig recently where there was a drop in power through one of the outlets I was plugged in to. That loss of steady power would trip the safety on the amp, and it would shut off for 10 seconds before starting up again. The remedy was to plug into the next outlet, and I had no issues for the rest of the gig. Prior to making this switch of outlets, I plugged in my Bugera Veyron, and it was unaffected by the drop in power. I am not sure if it was a result of it being class D or if it was the fact that my A/B amp runs at 4600 watts. The tiny class D amps are certainly back savers, and are quick and easy to set up on the job, but to really hear what my Alembic basses can do, I need an F2B or F1X with a very powerful A/B power amp.
My inspiration of the day-Thank God For Senator Bob Corker's Honesty In Saying What Needed To Be Said.
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Been very happy with the sound and whomp I get with my Crest CA6 and have been thinking about getting a Crest ProLite amp for times when I want to use something more compact but this newer version of the D800 sure looks like a contender, too.
I love my ProLite 3.0, so I highly recommend it. I would just caution you about running bridged. I have a smoked K140 and Faital driver as evidence of its prodigious output. Oops.
I am surprised that you are having issues blowing drivers with bridged power. I always run 4600 watts bridged, and am going in to two Genzler 12-3 Array cabinets which are rated at only 350 watts handling capacity. Two years later, and about 500 gigs, I have had no issues whatsoever. It is not the power that blows speakers, it is a distorted signal. Most of the time, an amp runs at below 100 watts. It can spike to higher wattage, but if you have a ton of headroom, when it does spike, the signal will be clean. Having the amp bridged for higher wattage and thus headroom, is what will potentially save your speakers. I regularly push those cabinets to the limit of what anyone can handle sonically, so I am not babying them by any means. The long and short of it is more power, more headroom, fewer blown speakers.
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So in general, do you suggest using an amp with more power than your speakers are rated for? For instance, I have a 12” guitar cab rated for 60w and the option on my amp to run either 60w or 100w. Do you suggest setting the amp for 60w or 100w? I have it on 60w now in an attempt to avoid damaging the speaker. Thanks.
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Rob, I don't think you would have a problem running the Carvin at 100w into your 60w cab. A 100w D class amp isn't nearly as loud as a 100w A or A/B class tube amp. OTOH, if it sounds good at the 60w setting, why mess with it?
Bill, tgo
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As a reminder, our board is a politics-free community.
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Moder Dave, huh??? Is there something political about class D vs. class A/B?
Bill, tgo
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Bill,
Thanks for the feedback and help with the amp in general.
Rob
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Interesting thread.
For what it's worth, I've got a TC Electronics RH450 which isn't a current model anymore. This is a nice sounding amp, with a very good compressor and good tonal flexibility. This is the really cool looking one - the knobs are encircled with LEDs which show your settings, and it has preset capabilities as well. This amp is famous for not being very powerful though (less than 250W), and you need a lot of speaker to keep up with a loud band. I haven't been in a loud band for years now, so the RH450 and an Eden 210 Neo cab is easy and workable. This may sound blasphemous, but I prefer the tone of this TC over classic SWRs or most other solid state amps.
I still have my 70's SVT and a Boogie Bass 400+. They both sound better and much louder to my ears, but my back thinks the TC might sound better. I think the TC amp weighs less than just the tubes in the Bass 400+. I have too many memories of looking up staircases with my SVT.
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Moder Dave, huh??? Is there something political about class D vs. class A/B?
Bill, tgo
Not anymore ..hehehe :-*
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Not a fan of class D amps. I have owned a bunch of the small amps going back as far as my high power Walter Woods. I have also owned the pinnacle of class D power amps like the Powersoft K2. In every instance, the sound is shrill and edgy on the top end. They also do not produce as solid a low end to my ear. They tend to sound distorted to me.
That's interesting on both counts. I can barely get enough high end out of my Genz Benz, and the low end is crazy. I can't put stuff on top of my combo anymore without it ending up on the floor. But again, the Ampegs still rule.
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I added the Sarno Black Box and my Class D sounds very nice with guitar.