Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: David Houck on April 21, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
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I just watched an interview with Pat Metheny where he talks about how videos shot by people in the audience and then posted to youtube have changed the nature of live performances.
He gives the example of how this has affected comedians. In the past, a comedian would insert new material into a show to try it out on an audience. If it worked, then it would be added to the routine; if it didn't, it wouldn't. Of course, if you were booked on the Carson show, you only brought your best stuff. But now, if your every show could be put up on youtube, you can't be trying out untested material in a live show; you have to come with your best stuff.
It brings to mind how bands/performers often play a small club or two before embarking on a major tour, just to test the set out in front of a live audience, work out some of the kinks, and tighten things up a bit. But now that first test set at the small club could be on youtube the next night as the world premier of the new tour.
It's something I hadn't previously thought much about. Of course, as far as I know, there's only one video of me on youtube shot by someone in the audience; so it's not something that has affected me directly. But then when I think back to all the mistakes I've made playing live, I'm kinda glad none of that stuff is out there.
The interview is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jE_AMMv_PQ).
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Mr. Houck,
I grew up in a different era. Boot-legging was illegal and performance venues assiduously protected the artists. Now when I see a you-tube video of an artist made by a member of the audience, I rarely watch it.
Vann-Di
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This brings to mind for me a couple of things:
1. If the band is into trying out new things and pushing the limits of their music, then they likely won't be too concerned about video taping. For instance, the Grateful Dead would work out tunes at live shows for a couple of years before settling on the studio arrangement (or never record them in the studio and just play them live), and they were constantly trying out new things at shows, sometimes it worked, sometimes "well that was interesting".
2. Dylan has always had a knack for modifying his lyrics at live shows, and the jam bands were always improvising on the spot (Grateful Dead, Allman Bros, Traffic, Hot Tuna, King Krimson, Dixie Dregs, etc.)
3. Improvisors in Jazz are always trying out new stuff live, soloists in the 50s an 60s, fusion in the 70s (e.g., check out some videos of Mile Davis in the 70s; or Herbie Hancock and the Head Hunters), and the digital effects of the 80s through today (Rudresh Mahanthappa and many others).
So, I think it's a comfort level thing for the musician or band, how willing are they to take chances live and let the mistakes fall where they may. In a sense, the videos or audio recordings are a historic record of development for the tunes, which is pretty nice to have.
That said, the only videos I really watch are the older ones of musicians I admire but did not have a chance to see live.
Rob
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Yes, Rob, but the Grateful Dead tapers were, for the most part, fanatic in sharing the band's feeling that taping was fine - as long as you did not profit from it; in the instances where people sold their recordings instead of trading/giving them, litigation did ensue.
Audience vids are using the artist's image & intellectual property to make money for someone else (the taper - vidder? - YouTube, someone) other than the artist, without the artist's consent or involvement.
Peter
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On the flip'side our band has had people come see us play because they saw a video, we've even had them come from out of town from seeing a video. Many people have been discovered, had their careers started or reborn on YouTube. So it can be a blessing or a curse!
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I don't understand why someone would put effort into capturing a live performance instead of being present and enjoying it.
It's one thing to set up mics and let the tape roll, but the whole 'hold up your iPhone and video capture' escapes me (and irritates when it obstructs my view).
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Thanks, Peter. Being an old taper I guess I live in that euphoric memory. I did not know that people were profiting from audience videos, thanks for pointing that out. And Dave, thanks for starting the thread, interesting topic!
Rob
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I don't understand why someone would put effort into capturing a live performance instead of being present and enjoying it.
It's one thing to set up mics and let the tape roll, but the whole 'hold up your iPhone and video capture' escapes me (and irritates when it obstructs my view).
Back when bungee-jumping was the big thing, the late, great Mike Royko wrote about seeing some (then) 20-somethings - now probably pushing 50 - jump, run over to the place that sold you a video of your jump, watch themselves, then five-five and jump around; it wasn't real for them when they did it, only when they saw it on TV. This trend has become ever more pronounced since, and for my money comes under of the heading of my dad's favorite old-fart lamentation - "The whole world's turning to horse manure!"
Peter (who must quote Dad because he himself is, of course, far too young for old-fart lamentations.....)
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Yes it is much different today from the old days where people traded cassette tapes. All of these free sights aren't really free. They are making money off the content they show whether they pay for it or not. That revenue might come from advertisements or user statistics and if the content isn't being shown under license then the artists are losing money.
Another issue I could see with video taping is the audience. One night you are playing a place and all of a sudden it looks like Bob's Country Bunker. Although it is a one in a million event videos get out and you start losing gigs as you are considered to drawing too rowdy of a crowd.
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Interesting topic both with respect to music and other areas of life. Personally, I've never been to a live show that I enjoyed where afterwards I heard a tape or saw a video of it and thought, "that was as good as being there." Standing or sitting through a live performance and only seeing it through one's iPhone or iPad is not my version of an enjoyable evening.
While on a board of this nature the topic in question is typically discussed within the context of music, the taping, photographing, etc. of the works of others that involve intellectual property rights has gone far beyond that at this point. I've found videos and sets of PowerPoint slides for lectures and presentations I've delivered related to the support of persons with disabilities posted on you tube, and a variety other sites. The worst scenario was an entire course I teach posted as a distance education class on a site of a for-profit University (I use the last word very loosely here) at which I have never taught nor desire to have associated with my name. It was charging a very nice sum for a 3-credit class based on my work for which I was not even credited.
I'm all for sharing the information I develop with others as long as due credit is provided since it doesn't have high commercial value. On the other hand, a colleague of mine from the University's pharmacology program presented a while back at a international conference on the results of clinical trials he was undertaking on a new drug to help treat children with seizures. He provided a bit too much information on the chemical composition of the drug and low and behold it was being produced and sold a year later by a large pharmaceutical company in a country that does not require extensive clinical trials. At first he thought this was a coincidence. However, investigation by our University's general counsels office found absolutely no evidence that the company in question was working on such medication prior to its release.
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Good topic.
I've always enjoyed how the Dead approached it, setting aside a prime spot for the audience to set up their mic towers and gear. What a sweet way to deal with, and completely defeat, the problem of bootlegging for profit at that time. And the tapes became part of the legend and the "buzz" about the band so in the end a kind of publicity. Really smart.
Now that everybody has video and audio recording equipment in their pocket it has gotten weird. I don't think anybody is making any serious money with their audience shot videos but not only is it an odd thing to do, it's still not legal. Buying a concert ticket does not entitle you to OWN the performance. With the exception of those like the Dead who may actually encourage it, most every ticket you buy or venue you go to posts "no recording allowed".
And seriously, what's the point of posting your concert vid? I suppose we all need to see the moment the dancer falls off the riser and breaks his leg - and I'm sure there will be several angles to choose from... But otherwise, it just strikes me as bizarre that people think they need to share every experience they have on their Facebook page. Is it bragging? Do they think their followers don't have any experiences of their own and wish to spend time living through them? WTF?
Yes, I am old.
Two short stories. One was quite some time ago on a visit to the Louvre. Interestingly, photography was allowed in the museum as long as you didn't use a flash. The Mona Lisa is there for all to see and enjoy and it's quite a small painting so the crowd has to kind of rotate in for a close look and then step aside for the next viewers. I saw a guy using not a phone but an actual small consumer video camera move in towards the painting and ONLY look at it through the viewfinder while he shot the video. He was 3 feet from the Mona Lisa and never laid eyes on it. But boy, that's gonna be a great thing to watch on his TV when he gets home!
Next case, played with James Taylor in a fairly small theater once and there was an older couple in the front row whose kids must have just given them a fancy new iPad. I'm jumping to that conclusion, but can you see what's coming? They watched THE ENTIRE SHOW on the ipad screen while shooting the video. They were 10 feet from JT and more often than not had the iPad in front of their faces. Hey, we can see that from the stage you know.
That's just ... bent. Sometimes it's important to experience something as it is happening. No need to time shift our entire lives. Then again I may have mentioned, I'm old. Extremely old.
Drummer Vinnie Colaiuta has always had issues with people taping. In a club situation he would occasionally stop playing until the cameras or recorders were put away. Now, I think because of the current state of affairs, he simply doesn't play in clubs - which is a real shame. I think this case is partly because he has always been a studio guy and compensation is "per service" in the legit sideman for hire business. Live gigs pay x, recordings pays xxx and recorded live gigs pay XXXX. But it may have also been a psych thing about taking musical chances (and man can he take them!) and being recorded while going for something. He may have also thought people were steeling his s#it but that's ridiculous because nobody can do what he does... Anyway, it doesn't seem to bother him when he is working for Sting or Herbie or Jeff Beck. At that point it's just gonna be on YouTube so I don't know how he has come to terms with it these days.
So again, I think the possibility of people monetizing their YouTube concert video footage is minimal. It's not like the old days of bootleg records potentially making somebody a lot of cash. It's also quite easy to shut down YouTube posts if you can prove you own the content. But the burden is on us to do that which is kind of a drag.
Brian's stories of stealing intellectual property and re-selling course presentations is much more serious. Yikes!
On the positive side of it ... it really really is amazing to have clips of long gone musicians and performances at our fingertips. Easy to fall into the screen for many hours linking from one thing to another and really researching somebody. I try to never use it just to hear music that I want to own, I'll still buy from iTunes (I'm ancient). I also believe it gives new talent a great opportunity. Any kid from any small town anywhere can put his music up and have a chance to have it heard like never before.
Excuse the long post, I must be on the road.
Cheers all,
Jimmy J
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Thanks for that perspective, Jimmy!
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Sometimes it's important to experience something as it is happening. No need to time shift our entire lives. Then again I may have mentioned, I'm old. Extremely old.
They say "with age comes *something" Jimmy J... I can't quite remember what though. ;D
I've enjoyed the read today as well. I am a YouTube addict, but a technological dunce. You can't believe how long it took me to edit this post on my antique Android phone. Sadder still, it probably does video too, but I wouldn't have the first idea how to post it, and even if I did, I wouldn't want to be distracted at a concert. I don't even have an iTunes account or an iPad to put tunes on. I have downloaded exactly 0 tunes, ever. I buy hard-copy CD's, often direct from the artist, and spend the first hour reading liner notes... I'm *that* guy. (staring down 48 if you're wondering)
I'm playing a winery tasting room this weekend. So far, nobody is recording us. ;D
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So again, I think the possibility of people monetizing their YouTube concert video footage is minimal. It's not like the old days of bootleg records potentially making somebody a lot of cash. It's also quite easy to shut down YouTube posts if you can prove you own the content. But the burden is on us to do that which is kind of a drag.
A great over all post.
The thing with YouTube or the other file sharing services is they are making money off of the bootlegged content even though the poster doesn't. While I believe some have general licensing agreements for sponsored content I don't see how they can fairly cover every fan posted video or record album on their site. While I have never been fond of how ASCAP/BMI operate their systems at least have some semblance of fairness to the song rights owner. While it is nice for the end user to get free stuff folks need to come to the realization it isn't free. Someone has paid to make it whether it be with their time, a company to record it, buy supplies, etc. and the creators deserve the opportunity to get some return on their investment.
You brought up the iPad couple. One of the things that drives me nuts is the audience member sitting in front of me holding up their phone to record the show and seeing the display flashing along. For me is becomes a distraction that ruins the show. I would say it's a tossup with that 6 foot plus guy who puts his girl friend on his shoulders in the front row blocking those of us of normal statures sight line. ;D
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Peter, your Dad is right. And because I (like Jimmy) am also oldish (53) I find that my Dad was right about a lot of stuff also. 8)
YouTube is a blast and is easy to waste a whole afternoon linking from one performance to another . . . Then I end up seeing that guy with the huge cyst on his back and ask myself how I got to the dark side of YouTube? :o
Seriously, these days I balk at going to a live performance because of the disconnect between audience members who aren't present for the performance. There are certain genres/ performers that you can be pretty sure they will be engaged with the performer, then there are the other ones. Sadly (and strangely) I recall seeing Hot Tuna on the tour prior to Steady as She Goes and it seemed like half the audience walked into the wrong venue, talking/ texting/ doing everything EXCEPT enjoying the show. Then I saw the Steady As She Goes tour and it was perfect, engaged and appreciative audience. Best part was the family sitting next to us with two pre-teen children that enjoyed themselves (and one fell asleep) .
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I really liked your post, Jimmy. I feel pretty much the same way. I'm at the age where I don't like people with iphones blocking my view while they record the
performance, or worse still, the people that talk loudly through the whole show. Why did they come in the first place? And did I mention that I'm old?
(very old).
Rob
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The people talking through the show thing is of course much older than smart phones. Somewhat relatedly ...
I attended college in Chapel Hill and continued to live there for quite some time after I finished. During the seventies, the best bar for music was the Town Hall. There was no seating; you either stood or sat on the floor. I saw lots of bands there (and played there a few times as well) but my favorite was the Dixie Dregs. We would get there early and sit down front, as did lots of other folks; but eventually a few other folks would make their way down front to dance, which not only blocked the audience's view of the musicians but was rather problematic, what with their dancing where people were sitting.
And while it's different from the cell-phone videographers, and from the talking through the show folks, it does demonstrate that people have different views on what going to see a band is about.
Back in 1979 or so, I had just arrived at the Grand Canyon for the first time; we drove up and stopped at the first overlook we came to. The view was immense, and I stood there just soaking it in, absorbed in the experience. Another car pulls up, the passenger gets out, walks up to the wall, takes a picture, gets back in the car, and drives away. They weren't there for more than a few seconds; but I guess they got a nice picture.
Perhaps that's similar to the spent the entire show staring at the ipad thing.
:)
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'Dancing to the Dixie Dregs'.
That made me pause - but I guess you could if you wanted to. :o
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This
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I got yelled at once (by a number of people) for dancing at a Frank Zappa show, it really took me by surprise, I was just having a good time.
I work at a techie place, but spent most of my time in previous decades, so I can relate to what people have expressed in this thread. Unfortunately it's the new norm. Technology is speeding up at a rapid pace and won't slow down. There are people where I work who are looking to permanently couple technology with human senses, altering in many ways the way we perceive the world around us. Scary, but intriguing at the same time. Society and the way we behave will continue to evolve and change, as too will the rules that define and guide acceptable behavior. Bad craziness as the good Dr. Duke would say...
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The only thing I think I can add is the trend of less music sales of albums and associated products. Countered by larger income generation from live performances. As a late 60s baby who had an older brother connected to the music scene via one of the largest radio station in Cincinnati. I saw a lot of shows as a youngster, and played my share. The big hitters are killing it. But the kids want what the kids want. And right now they want free vids. Most could care less about fidelity, as if they even know what that means. They seem to be interested in whatever, and less genre specific. So, if you can get to the top of the search engines, you can book shows. Ultimately local groups can get better fan base, becoming regional, than national without the help of big recording industry. We all watched it die. And that's why the record companies don't have the hold they once had.
Lucky a few of us still kept great gigs, like JJ. Some keep going locally / regionally cause we love our craft. All of us here love the people that helped create the sounds we love to hear.
Money is the great equalizer. And, if giving your stuff away for free, gets you more down the road? Than you just validated the Grateful Deads basic principal. Which is, I think, why they didn't care about tapers. Free publicity.
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At 62, I'm further along than some of you in terms of running faster and faster downhill into Full Time Curmudgeonry. I'm well along in realizing my Grumpy Old Fart merit badge.
The difference between artists and performers and musicians and 'civilians' (the unwashed mobs with their smart phones or idiots with I-Pads in JT's face) has always been there, and 'us and them' divide. Consumption by them of what artists do has now been commoditized to an LCD (or lowest common denominator) level by digital technology in that now it's essentially worthless: Because you can get it for free, with essentially no legal or societal repercussions, everybody does it without a care in the world.
When I was young, approaching and learning and putting in my '10,000 Hours' was the way, and we admired and valued those who were already there. That still exists in some corners, but it's more and more rare. Now it's push-button, built with loops or samples, and the standards are far lower in general.
I realize change is constant, I need to adapt, to forget, and move one, and to dwell and moan about 'the way things used to be' is a fool's errand . . . . . . but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
What really gets me? I have turned into my parents. They wanted to listen to Sinatra and Big Band Records, and wanted no part of Motown or The Beatles, I thought they were dinosaurs. . . . . so now I suppose I have truly turned into Wilson the Neanderthal.
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I'm also 62, and must disagree. We are not our parents. The popular music our parents listened to, like Sinatra, the Dorseys, Glenn Miller, Cab Calloway, etc., was good music. I may not have realized it at 15, but I came to realize it as I grew older and more experienced. (I also came to really appreciate classical music). The popular music we listened to growing up, like the Beatles, Motown, the San Francisco sound, country rock, folk rock, Dylan, the Band, etc., was also good music. Unfortunately, a lot of today's "popular music" really is crap. I'm sorry, but somebody reciting rhythmic poetry to a drum beat and occasionally venturing into actual melody only with the employment of autotune is not music! How's that for a curmudgeonly rant!
Bill, tgo
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Dave. Your comment about dancing and the Dregs brings back a memory from my early 20's. The used to be a concert club in the Chicago area called Beginnings. They would have a wide variety bands with differing music styles. One concert I went to with the lead guitarist at the band was Brand X. We had a good table and a couple of young women asked if they could share it with us. Being single who were we to say "No"? As we talked they asked who the band was. We told them Brand X. The very next question was, "Can you dance to them?". Craig just about fell off his chair trying to keep a straight face. All I could say was they could try.
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:)
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Bill, a few years ago I was a substitute teacher; I posed the following to some high school students:
"Every day I come to school and I see kids who could be my grandchildren wearing t-shirts for my generation's music - Hendrix, the Beatles, the Who, the Grateful Dead - let me see the hands of anyone who thinks their grandkids will be wearing t-shirts for Justin Beiber or Eminem."
Exactly zero hands went up.
I, too, now dig the Dorseys, Miller. Callowy, et al - but I still can't get behind Sinatra. Dean Martin, absolutely, but Frank just leaves me cold. I maintain, based on his singing & acting, that he had a career solely because he had friends who'd kneecap you if you didn't hire him.
Peter (Who was taught that music was combination of melody, harmony, and rhythm, and does not believe that if you take away melody & harmony what you have is music. Now get off my lawn!)
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Mid-Course Correction: Dave, I can't bake ziti or any of my Italian dishes without Frank or Dean or Tony Bennett going in the kitchen; I grew up enough to appreciate it and lots of other stuff as you point out. One of my absolute faves is 'Got You Under My Skin', the Nelson Riddle arrangement that Riddle scribbled out in his car as his wife drove him to a hastily-called session as Sinatra wanted to do one more 'Right Now'. My God, giants walked the Earth . . . .
I meant that as a shallow smart-ass kid (I was, imagine that . . . . ), I just thought 'OMG, how can they listen to THAT'. I've outgrown those days, although even at my age, my inner 12-year old will still rear up on occasion . . . . .
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Dead_head, a few years ago way before social media and mobile phone cameras. I used to regularly go to a jazz club in town called Ronnie Scotts. Anyway the real problem there was that people would talk too loudly all the way through the gig and it was annoying. Anyway one night I was there watching this great blues artiste Joe Louis Walker, how did an awesome gig by the way, and he suddenly stopped the band and waited a few seconds then announced on the mic "Excuse me are we playing too loud and disturbing your conversation?"
Bingo.... the volume of the crowd dropped for the rest of the gig .. marvellous!
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Jazzy, that directly hits the point. Even if you run into a long lost friend at the show, if you absolutely MUST converse with them - step outside, go to the back of the room, remove yourself from The Performance.
Hats off to Joe Louis Walker.
My parents music; I grew up with my ear glued to the local prog- rock station (WZMF). After playing with a great swing band is when I "got it". One of my favorite tunes to listen to AND play, Glen Miller's Moonlight Seranade. It baffles me, quarter notes all the way through (toss in a ghost here and there). But I just LOVE that song, it kinda lopes along, I settle into the pocket and then just drift with it.
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The Lovely & Charming always gets miffed when we go to see live music - and I don't want to chat. Sorry, Dear, they have my attention until they're done (or I decide they suck - and then we'll leave, not talk during the performance).
Though actually, since I started embarrassing myself at the local folkie open mic night, she's learning to scowl at talkers....and in that room they are, I fear, legion.
Peter
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All manner of poor audience etiquette - talking, recording, taking selfies, repeatedly getting up and down to get beer (and get rid of it) and more talking - was in evidence at a Steely Dan concert I attended a few years ago in Phoenix. The performance was quite good and the audience behavior made me wonder when Steely Dan became so boring that they could be relegated to a role as a sonic backdrop for a social and social media party.
It seemed to be more important to many in the audience that they document their attendance / seat locations as proof they were there than it was for them to experience the actual event.
Re: audience recording of performances and posting on social media - this has happened to me or projects that I have played with several times and I have mixed feelings both good and bad.
Good: It's flattering when someone thinks what is being performed is good/interesting enough to be worthy of the effort. Example: one person told me that he was so knocked out when I took an extended lead on a 12-string electric guitar that he recorded it and posted it so his buddies would believe that someone did that.
Bad: The performers have no control over what gets posted. Example: during set-up / sound check a few years ago, a drunk was hassling our keyboard player and demanding that we play Judas Priest. So the keyboard player got PO'd and decided to shut him up by opening with "You Got Another Thing Comin'". One problem: two of the four band members did not not know it and thought he was joking until we started. Of course, someone in the audience recorded the effort and posted it (maybe the drunk) and it was as bad as you imagine.
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Peter, the thing about Sinatra that gets me is his phrasing. It is quite unique, yet flows so smoothly and, seemingly, naturally. The closest I've heard in similarity to Sinatra's phrasing is Willie Nelson's, IMHO.
Of course Neither Sinatra, Dean Martin, Tony Bennett, nor Mel Torme could hold a candle to Nick Winters! (Star Wars!!!!) Johnny Fontane was pretty good too, even if his recklessness caused the death of an innocent horse. lol
Bill, tgo
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Joey; I think you meant your response for Peter rather than for me. :)
Talking while the band is playing can work another way. In decades past, there have been times when I went to a restaurant to have dinner with friends or family, only to discover that there was someone playing music that I didn't care for nor want. I wasn't there for music, and didn't know there would be. However, there were the rare instances of that happening where it turned out to be something I appreciated.
The last band I was in had a regular gig at a restaurant/bar in town; so there were people who were there primarily for the food, and there were people there primarily for socializing; there weren't many people who were there primarily to hear us, though as the evening wore on, we would pull people in who were passing by looking for a band. But it did seem that most folks liked us.
The stage was in the front window, and for dinner, there were tables set up on the stage. So when I got there to start setting up, I had to wait until the window diners had finished eating and left. I would casually start bringing in the equipment and putting it down right by their tables to subtly drop a hint.
The bar was in the back at the furthest point from the stage. There were nights when, close to closing, the only patrons left were sitting at the bar, talking amongst themselves and/or watching the tv. But when we would finish a song, they would all applaud. I guess they were regulars who just wanted to show their appreciation even though they weren't primarily focused on us. And I thought that was rather nice.
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Bill: You think Willie sings like Frank? I think he has more Django in his picking than anyone I've ever heard who wasn't a Flemish Gypsy.
Dave: Yeah, restaurant music is different. Best picker I ever knew had an 18-year twice-weekly gig in a Pot-Bellies sandwich shop; he was glad for regular income, I though it was a shameful waste.....
But yeah, sorry, if you're playing where i'm eating, you don't get the same attention as if I came to hear you.
Peter
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My band did a gig recently and there was a guy there who took MANY photos and videos as well. He was ll over the place, by the sides of the stage, right in front getting close-ups, etc. We had no idea who he was. One of us asked him what he was doing and he said it was his hobby to video many groups and perhaps post them to his youtube channel. He never did introduce himself, let alone ask permission. Now, our band is of ZERO renown; and we're not too worried about having this fellow's videos go up on youtube. That said, it leaves a funny taste in my mouth; maybe one day it might become something we wouldn't want public.