Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: bigredbass on October 11, 2004, 11:14:03 PM
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This morning, I sat in the car waiting on Mrs. Wilson. Flipping thru the radio stations, I ran across the Vanderbuilt University station, 'college radio' at its best.
They played a live 'Eyes of The World' and I was wondering about several things:
Were they ALWAYS out of tune with each other? It always seems that way, though I must admit my one Dead album Europe 72 is not as bad as the other times I run across them.
I was struck by the guitar tones, in that they sound like they were still playing thru preamp/power amp rigs. The tones were mighty clean and the lighter distortion they did use
just did not seem like the typical stack overdrive. Did they stay with that type of setup thru their history?
I thought this particular version (I have no idea where it came from) was a very honest sounding live album, but I felt a little too honest about their vocals. I wished their harmonies were a little tighter, mixed a little more up front.
Or is it just me that I'm missing the point that the Dead were so loved just for these little production/performance quirks?
J o e y
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I heard an interview with Mickey Hart talking about the harmonies of Crosby Stills and Nash. He said something like, We can't sing like them, and they can't play like us. I thought that pretty much summed up Dead vocals. I don't think I ever heard them with their instruments out of tune, but then again, maybe I missed those shows. I know that every time I play along with the Dead on DVD or CD, I'm in tune with them. And I'm tuned to pitch. Sorry, no help here...
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I'm a long term Dead Head with close associations to same. After attending/working many live performances both for the PA and Live Recording of them in equally as many venues, my opinion is that they were in tune most of the time. However, that being said, no they can't do harmonies like CSNY. They are often slightly yet enchantingly off key particularly Jerry. But hey, wasn't that part of their charm? I think so.
And in defense of CSNY, they play equally as good as GD, just a different style. BTW- Stephen Stills since I was 14 has always been one of my fav guitarists.
-susan
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The Dead vocals were too often painful to the ears. Garcia's voice and pitch were inconsistent, to put it politely. Weir typically sang on key, but had poor moments as well. I've always suspected the prevalence of live recordings of varying quality amplified the problem.
Nonetheless, they held up well enough to entertain with their vocals (usually) and their instrumental play was always fascinating, stirring and often beautiful. I reconciled long ago (because of an unfortunate case of relatively good pitch) to make the allowances necessary to appreciate the enormous number of good things about their music.
Bill, the bass one
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Ah Jerry. I sure do miss him. I always felt the same way about Jerry's vocals as I do about Dylan's. Neither man was born with a great musicial voice. Yet both communicate incredible emotion through their singing. Someone like Joan Baez is, for me, the opposite. She has a great voice that fails to move me at all. Listen to her sing John Prine's Hello In There She takes a great melancholy, wistful song and sings it happy. Jerry would take a song and tell you a story. Listen to Wharf Rat and you can close your eyes and smell the brine and stale urine. When Jerry sang, you believed him, he put his entire being into it. You could hear how much he loved the music.
And don't forget about Pigpen. Also not classically a great voice, yet I've heard few sing the blues any better. As far as the Dead's harmonies, there were many times when they hit them and sounded great. Around 1970 they worked some with CSN and did probably their best singing on Workingman's Dead and American Beauty. Some wonderful harmonies there. As far as singing off-key, the only one that ever made me winch was Donna Jean, and even she hit her notes once in a while.
Bill, the guitar one
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The Dead have probably the biggest ups and downs on any band I can think of. When they are at their best I dont think theres any band who plays better. When they are at their worst, well, its not gonna be pretty. Im not too sure about them being out of tune. I know Ive seen shows where the sound was terrible and Ive always blamed that on their set up and the fact that some arenas and a lot of outdoor venues were just not built for concerts.
There was always a problem, IMO, with the volume of certain instruments and Ive read comments in some of their books and it appears that the blame is simply on their crew. Ive been at concerts where you literally cannot hear anything coming from a person yet you can clearly see them playing. This happened a lot to the keyboard players, at times to Bob Weir and even to Phil Lesh. Im no pro by any stretch but I think someone was doing a poor job in the set up or the mixing of the music.
I think Bob can sing, at the very least he is a great live performer when he carries a tune. I thought Brent was a good singer, I liked Vince too, but just about everyone else was up and down to me. I never liked the females in the various bands much, even the recent ones and Ive never been big on Lesh singing either. He has a very hard time carrying a tune. Jerry could sing when he wanted too, much like Dylan, but neither are obviously gonna bring the house down with stirring vocals. Still both are effective and have their moments for certain.
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Russ(zappahead):
Your comment about ups & owns reminded me of a piece I read many years ago. I think it was an interview with Weir where, in response to a question about the ups & downs, he said something to the effect of When you go diving for pearls, sometimes you come up with clams. This illustrates what, to me, is one of the main attractions of the Dead. They were willing to dive for pearls and chance the clams in front of an audience. Very few bands are willing to take chances on stage. The Dead, at their best, were almost allergic to playing it safe.
Bill, the guitar one
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Bill (TGO)
I couldn't agree with you more regardng how Jerry could put a tune across to an audience and somehow make an emotional connection with each person. It was his special talent. Same thing for Dylan. Neither of their singing styles ever made me wince.
Pigpen vocals: true grit Lovelight Live Dead album. Not to mention his physical charisma.
Regarding: Donna & Joan Baez as vocalists, I have one word Snore ZZzzzzzz......
-susan
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Hi Susan,
I too am a huge Steven Stills fan. I first saw him live with Buffalo Springfield, his guitar work is now and always has been as tasty as it gets. His first solo album is right up there in the vicinity of an ever increasing list of favorites.
Jerry may not have always hit the correct note, but he always got the feeling of the song across.
He did that as well as anyone I've ever heard. I just loved watching him play and sing his heart out.
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Nobody has mentioned that, as far as I could tell, the GD never used effects on conceert vocals (no reverb, no chorusing, just dry). And given their push for pure concert sound (The Wall etc), they truely were letting everything hang out. I still love that karma! Kinda like friends playing around a campfire with wooden music (a nod to Crosby). Only they could groove, scream, jive, and rock like there was no tomorrow.
I miss Jerry too.
Mike
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Hey Bill, as far as the ups and downs go, Ill take my lumps for the ups that the Dead could manage. Honestly Ive seen a great many shows and Ive only seen a small handfull of shows that were in the downs category. The good shows by far outweighed any bad ones and their best shows that I saw made any kind of lowlights a faded memory. I have never seen another band who was as capable of being as good as the Dead were so naturally you could get let down because of your own expectations at times.
Whats a bit wierd though is that I found the Jerry Garcia band shows that I saw over the years to be consistently great. I used to see him whenever he came anywhere near DC and sometimes further out and his band was persistently amazing to me personally. I think it was in that format that I also saw most vividly the point Susan was making about how he could connect to you as an individual. Its not that he couldnt do that with the Dead, he did for sure, but he did it night in and night out when I saw him with the Jerry Band.
Mike, I have heard effects in the recent Dead vocals, Bob specifically. Only on CDs that I have downloaded. Cant recall whether I ever heard any in the Jerry era. Off the top of my head I think you are right though.
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I've been to shows where the Dead played and everyone danced (good old rock and roll) and I've been at shows when the Dead absolutely transformed the whole place - sent the crowd reeling into aesthetic arrest. Moments of madness and joy. In the end I always thought the Grateful Dead played it out on the edge - a very honest approach. The open communication they had with band members, the crowd, the cosmos, and the gods was a great thing to witness. Sometimes they rolled along like a bike with seven wheels and other times there was FUSION. With the Dead it seemed the whole was always far greater than the sum of it's parts, so Jerry's soulful crooning or a risky chord voicing from Bobby never bothered me in the least.
Speaking of Stephen Stills - I remember an interview he gave in which he said that the Dead were . . . the greatest damn garage band in the world . . . Incidentally, some of my favorite guitar work of Stills' is on his Manassas recordings.
Tom
(Message edited by tom_z on October 12, 2004)
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Guitar World was a little bit harsh on Jerry this month. They listed (in their opinion) the 100 Worst Riffs, Licks and Solos Of All Time and said that Jerry's solos always served up more noodles than lunchtime in Chinatown... I don't know, maybe more noodles than the take out place down the street...but all of Chinatown? Please!
Jonathan
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Thank to you all, and I really appreciate Susan coming in to speak from her experience with the Dead. Yes m'am, I've always admired SStills and Tom, I thought the Manassas project was fabulous and had a LOT of unfufilled potential.
While no DeadHead, I ALWAYS admired their uncommercial attitude and their great grace with their fans. One of my deepest connections is the live Allmans/Fillmore recordings, and while that ABB came from a different direction, they had a similar attitude to the long improvs.
Thank You All,
J o e y
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I' ve always been a S Stills fan. When I was 16 I used to look around for Steven Stills shirts (in fact this were plain light blue shirts with white lining ans button down collar) because we saw pictures of him -solo and with CSN&Y- in magazines. (Oh yeah ...and my addiction to American Football shirts is also thanks to him and the picture on the back of his first solo-album).Me too I was/am a Manassas fan. The bassplayer (Calvin fuzzy Samuels)had a big influence on my playing. I only saw them on a DUtch television show when they performed in Amsterdam. We didn't have television at home that time and I begged a neighbour of ours -who had cable so Dutch televisionstations- to see the show, what he as happy to grand.
In that time I was surprised when I discovered that SS played also the bass on his first solo-album.
Gratefull Dead ...nope ...never heard them and what I heard I didn't like a lot. Mayeb I listend to the wrong tracks. Anyway ...I heard so much about them that it is on my TO DO LIST for this year ...mmmmmmmm ...or next year ...whatever.
Paul the bad one
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What a great way to meander down memory lane. I had to mention at least once I have heard Jerry singing through some effects.....Whats become of the baby on LiveDead HAD to be through some effects.
robert fab
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My meandering took a detour there on that post of mine, sorry it wasn't LiveDead that had whats become of the baby. Of course it was Aoxomoxoa, its early here on the left coast.....sorry
robert fab
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They may not be the best at what they do, but they are the only ones who do what they do -Bill Grahm
Susan,
A little off topic, but a couple of months back you mentioned doing a Series guitar for Neil Young. Do you recall the build details for this? Also Rick Danko mentioned once that he had a couple of Alembics (as a naive teen I thought he said 'Olympic')..... I havent been able to get close enough to Crosby's electric 12-string, but did you guys have anything to do with that one?!?
Thanks,
-Mike
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Each to their own, I suppose.
I've never been much of a Dead fan because their music doesn't really move me. However, I totally repect their relentless dedication (no pun intended) to their own muse, which is a quality sadly lacking in music today. They are one of the few bands that made a career out of doing exactly what they wanted - and who among us wouldn't wish for the same thing?
Their live vocals are brutal sometimes, for sure, and the improvs don't always work, but I would rather listen to the Dead for their honesty and integrity than some Pro Tools fabrication. Pro Tools (when used to fix mistakes) is to music as Cheese Whiz is to food. Safe, but no flavor. I've just finished a gig with a band leader who insisted that we rehearse while listening to a click track. It made our time more prefect, for sure, but for me it also sucked the life right out of our groove. Music is the most perfect form of human communication, and anything that sucks the humanity out of it is a bad thing.
Humans make mistakes, you know - it's o.k. For me, perfection in music is a means, not an end. If it feels good, if it grooves, if it speaks to the soul - it's music...even if it isn't perfect.
Man, am I in a bad mood. Time to go hit my open A string over and over and let it ring until I find peace.
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Steve,
I gig a lot with a drummer who has a thingy on his snare drum which shows him the tempo he's playing, rather than simply dictating a tempo to him. It's pretty cool, and allows for things to ebb and flow as needed without getting off click. It is extremely useful for rehearsals. He doesn't use it for gigs, but more as a diagnostic tool for tempos.
John
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Hi,
Speaking of Insight into the Grateful Dead
I wanted to recommend a book I am currently reading Home Before Daylight By Steve Parish.
Great, Great, Book if you are a fan of the Band and Jerry.
He even mentions hanging out at Alembic back in the Day...
- Tom
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Thanks for the tip.
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The Grateful Dead moves me on different levels. You get 'it' or you don't, you connect or it just fades away. Love or hate, yin or yang, for me it's something spiritual I don't have with many bands or artists.
Well, back on earth: I've got some great live recordings which I consider to be amongst the best music in my collection, but I'm also very fond of Aoxomoxoa & American Beauty, IMHO their best studio albums. The Dead were able to do a VERY good job vocally every now and then. Just check out the entire American Beauty album and St. Stephen from the classic Live/Dead album (especially that magical middle section not found on the studio version)
Wilfred
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Wilfred,
I heartily agree. There?s no way to fully explain the depth of my feelings for their music.
As for their vocals, I feel they?re always first rate on the studio recordings. And live, it?s the entire experience, vocals included, that moves me.
Also, much the same as their playing, none of the vocals are anywhere near easy. I've always admired their out on the edge ability.
Bent my ear to hear the tune
And closed my eyes to see
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Wilfred, Hollis, you're on to something with the concept that there is something indescribable about the Grateful Dead. For me, the live experience of a Dead show somehow resonates with something very basic inside of me.
I listen to many kinds of music and really enjoy very tight and polished performances as well as soulful and raw playing, but I can't think of a live show that I'd rather experience than an evening with the Grateful Dead when they're firing on all cylinders.
Jerry - Rest in peace.
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I never liked the Dead's music when I was a kid - who likes what their parents like? Plus, I slept through countless shows as a baby, so the music used to put me to sleep. I always liked Truckin' from Europe '72 though.
As a teenager, I still didn't get it as Wilfred put it. But friends kept encouraging me that I hadn't heard the right recording yet. I kept an open mind.
Then one day my friend Don sent me the right tape - the last Filmore East show. That one made me get it in a big way. Plus, the setting was right. I was driving home through San Francisco on a nice balmy July day. I just kept turning it up louder and louder and louder.
My friend John described the Dead as a band that was willing to have a hundred bad shows to find the greatest show ever.
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Mica, driving thru SanFran on the right day with the right tunes in the car is QUITE the experience:
I visited SanFran every summer in the late 60s/early 70s. One afternoon my aunt took us up to Mill Valley and The James Gang's Walk Away was playing on KSFO as we came off the Golden Gate and went up the hill into the tunnels with the rainbows painted on the openings . . . I can NEVER hear that tune without that mental video replaying itself.
J o e y
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You always got an honest performance: If they felt like sh*t or were all-highed up or were feeling great, you knew it because that's how they played and sang. Nobody will ever accuse Jerry of having a great singing voice. His playing, while much more consistent than his vocals, reached for a few clunkers now and again as well. Who cares! The music is great, and despite all the flaws, they always somehow pulled it off. That music moves me more than any other, period.
Personally, while Jerry has had his share of off-key moments...actually I think he has more voice cracking and/or out-of-breath moments, possibly due to his (lack-of) physical conditioning and/or substance abuse....I think Donna Jean was the main culprit most of the time. Don't get me wrong, her voice is decent enough, but she had more than a few wailing, shrieking out-of-tune moments. When you have a few people singing at once, one bad note wrecks the whole deal.
I agree with Russs in that I also think Jerry was more consistent with the JGB than with the Dead. Maybe it was because there were less cooks to spoil the broth (Jerry either sang alone or had pro female backup singers). Maybe it was a case of higher motivation...he always did his side projects during his most creative periods, and they were all his calls. Who knows? You certainly can't ask him now, LOL! J/K.
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i agree with susan. Jerry did not only sing a song as much as he became the song. So his nuances are most important. Thats the difference between the good ones and the better ones(singers). I might have a better voice than jerry, but i have not reached that feel that he or a dylan or even a sinatra have
oh yeah i forgot- its called soul! i knocked my bands socks off last week with the best so many roads i have hever done.
besides, who ever went to a dead show for the vocals anyway?
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BTW, for all you Dead Heads out there (or for those at least curious about a GD SHOW), try this link:
http://www.archive.org/audio (http://www.archive.org/audio)
It's the Live Music Archive, and it's got just about EVERY Dead show (including some shows BEFORE there was a Dead)...all for free to download and decent sound quality to boot.
I've been re-living my childhood by revisiting shows I was at back in the day and am exploring shows I missed but friends were at and shows I used to have on tape. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!!
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A very cool sight. Thanks Kevin.
BTW, How's that sweet Orion of yours working out?
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You're welcome, Hollis.
Unfortunately, I haven't spent much time with her over the past month. I've been busy at work and have been unusually tired. My desire to play is directly proportional to the energy I have left at the end of the day...lately, it's been zilch. Change in the seasons (i.e, summer to fall to winter) with the shorter days and colder weather always depresses me I guess. I need to practice my guitar some more as well...just ask my guitar instructor, LOL!
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Sometimes it's hard to find enough hours in the day. Hopefully, your rhythms will start to sync up with the seasons in the not too distant future.
Take care
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Wow!! Thanks for the link Kevin! Awesome site - good bandwidth - many bands - hope it stays up for a while.
Tom
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You're welcome, Tom. Finding that site was like being a kid at Christmas. I am in love with the thing, LOL! There is lots of info about the shows as well, including the source of the tape. There are some poor recordings there, but the majority are soundboard derived. Ck out Wembley/London in '72...polar opposites and an exact example of what I mean...one day is a horrendous cassette recording, and the other is straight off of the board a la Alembic's Europe '72 LP! It has the same sound, balance and feel as the album, and the song selection and performances are excellent. It's probably no secret that I share my favorite Dead incarnation with Susan: Pig Pen and Alembic's recordings! The '72 tour was probably the best ever, and there are many examples of same up on this site, including the U.S. before/after Europe dates.
BTW: get 'em while there hot. The site has a writen disclaimer about the Dead's official recording policy which allows non-commercial use of any of the unofficial recordings. As soon as they make an official release a la Dick's Picks or Rockin' the Rhein ('72 Rheinhalle/ Dusseldorf, Deutschland), they take it away (unless it was a non-soundboard recording). I just glossed over the thing, but you get the idea.
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All: If you're interested in getting bootleg GD shows to burn on your own CD-R's and even get cover art for jewel cases for same...go to:
http://dozin.com/# (http://dozin.com/#)
That's where I got the LAMA site link (above) for the show downloads. They also have links that have a chat room for show downloads and sites that have cool cover art for anything you can imagine.
Ck it out...that site is a gem of a Dead Head resource...it can also hook you up with other Jam Band recordings/cover art incl. Gov't. Mule, Dave Mathews, Phish, etc.
ENJOY!!!
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Fire the DVD players up...The long-awaited Grateful Dead Movie is FINALLY being released tomorrow! I pre-ordered mine from the Dead's on-line store and cannot wait to get it. They threw in a bunch of new stuff (two discs!) and they have a companion CD set that docments the entire '74 Winterland SF farewell run that spawned the movie. I'll keep the GD faithful informed when I get 'em.
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Thanks for the heads up Kevin, I'll definitely check that one out!
Wilfred
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Until then, I'm being tided-over by the LAMA site and am listening to the '72 Rheinhalle disc set as I type...You simply cannot beat the Dead with Pig Pen in the lineup! Another great musical sole lost way too young in the abyss that was the early '70's.
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So what's the movie called kevin? is it the festival express disc I've seen out recently?
graeme
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I'm anxiously waiting for the 'Grateful Dead Records' and 'Arista' albums to be re-released separately. I certainly want 'Blues For Allah', the expanded 2CD (!) 'Reckoning', 'Terrapin Station' maybe, or should I just buy the entire box set, hmmmm...
http://www.gdforum.com/store/music/WB_boxset2.html (http://www.gdforum.com/store/music/WB_boxset2.html)
Wilfred
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Graeme: It's called simply The Greatful Dead Movie. It was recorded over a series of shows at SF's Winterland Theatre in '74 that were supposed to be the Dead's farewell tour. Jerry decided to learn to be a filmaker and document the whole thing professionally. It took over two years to assemble and edit the whole thing and it was eventually released theatrically across the country in '76. It is awesome and, in my opinion, is the consumate concert film.
Wilfred: Buy the set...it is awesome! If you buy from the Dead on-line store, you'll save money on the package deal and you'll get a bonus if you order today (a 6 piece of film of an original theatrical print of the movie).
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Another Interesting video document that has just come out is Festival Express, about the touring train concert series across Canada in the summer of 1970. With surprisingly good footage of the Grateful Dead, The Band and Janis Joplin among many others (yeah , even one song by Sha Na Na ... they flew in for one show and split). Jerry playing a SG and Phil playing an EB-2, Pigpen on stage, Buddy Guy with a 100foot guitar cord so he can go roaming pre-wireless tech.
I found this double DVD without hype at my local Blockbuster Video. Quite a Friday night surprise!
Mike
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Festival Express is fantastic. Though I'm a big Deadhead, I thought the concert footage of Buddy Guy stole the show. His energy was just fantastic.
The scene on the train where a bunch of em' are sitting around jamming to some tune, and Jerry is telling Janis that he loves her is a great moment. Had me grinning from ear to ear.
The Grateful Dead isn't for everybody. I've often found to really dig into their sound, one needs to be knocked back a peg or two to understand whats really going on...
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Get the Dead movie...the new release is awesome!
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BTW, the extras on the movie release are in many ways better than the movie.
The companion soundtrack is awesome and covers the entire 'final' Winterland run.
The biggest gem is the Beyond Description box set. While there is nothing better than a Dead show, the albums providing the genesis for all those great performances are certainly worthwhile. The extra cuts and the re-mastering really wake these oldies up.
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From being up close to stage at many Dead and JGB shows, I can say that Jerry spent a lot of time making sure his guitar was spot on. Phil was the same with his Bass and Bob seemed to look at his tuner and hit it a lot. Okay...just kidding about Bob. But he didn't seem to check so often and carefully.
Voices. Jerry was an old soul if you believe in that stuff and his voice always seemed like that of a wise man that figured out that happiness is a decision, but that emotion whether good, or sad is worth having. He was a teacher to me in these simple, but important lessons when I was a teen. I loved Jerry's voice...still do. Bob grates on me in pretty much every aspect of his performance. I guess he was happy being a rythm guitarist and that was handy.
It seemed the Dead's keyboard players were always pretty decent singers at least, if not darn good.
JGB shows were a Garcia spectacle. A fantastic display of Garcia letting completely loose in all songs and doing whatever he wanted to. I enjoyed JGB shows much more than Dead shows for this fact, although there were many times I wished Phil was there instead of John Kahn (not bagging on John, but Phil is Phil...enough said?)
It seems people either get the dead, or don't and those classifications cross the borders between musicians, and listeners. Many musicians just couldn't get it, while many listeners could. This blows my mind because I humbly feel that Jerry was the most musical person to ever put fingers on strings.
I guess I'll stop now.
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hi
Could some one give me a link to see the grateful deads wall of sound as i have never seen it and am interested.
thanks andrew MB
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Andrew MB:
http://dozin.com/gearheads.html (http://dozin.com/gearheads.html)
Andrew K:
Well Put.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Andrew.
I posted a picture in the showcase section.. here's the link.
http://club.alembic.com/Images/411/12767.html?1097523444 (http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=8239)
graeme
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Bob grates on me in pretty much every aspect of his performance. I guess he was happy being a rythm guitarist and that was handy.
I have heard this before and I never quite understood the sentiment. I knew many people who, at the first signs of a Bobby song, would bolt for the lobby or start jabbering at anyone within listening distance.
I have listened very carefully to the way the band communicates musically and have come to the conclusion that Bobby has elevated the craft of the rhythm guitarist. His chord voicings are truly amazing and his syncopated rhythms and unusual phrasing is, to me, inseparable from the Grateful Dead feel. Jerry is quoted as saying . . .His (Weir's) playing, in a way, really puts my playing in the only kind of meaningful context it could enjoy. . .
The communication and interplay among ALL members of the Dead, and the energy brought by each is what made the music so incredible. Also, some of my favorite Grateful Dead numbers are Bobby songs - Sugar Magnolia, Playing in the Band, Me and my Uncle, Cassidy, Music Never Stopped, . . .
I can understand that some regard Bobby as a bit Show Biz or flashy in his stage presentation, but in comparison to other stuff out there, it never really seemed excessive. I also realize that when he was learning to play slide guitar on stage it was pretty painful. However, I always felt his craftsmanship and inventiveness was excellent.
Well, off my soapbox now - just my two cents.
Tom
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Right on, Tom. Bobby is certainly a corn-ball, but that's part of his charm. After all, did ya really want another Jerry up there? I've grown to appreciate Bob and also realize that it wouldn't be the Dead without him. Parts that I just associated with Jerry were actually played by Weir...the lovely melody line during the beginning of live China Cat Sunflower, for instance. Bobby plays a lot more than just chords. He is most certainly the finest Rhythmn guitar player in all of rock n' roll hands down IMHO.
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I think Bobby is a great performer. His style of guitar and his vocals are both pretty far from the norm, but IMHO he pulls both off very well. One of my favorite live albums is Bob Weir/Rob Wasserman Live. Rob is able to follow Bobby's crazy chord changes without missing a beat, and Bobby is in fine shape vocally. A couple highlights on the album are Victim or the Crime and Heaven Help the Fool. And surely anyone who enjoys this album should give a listen to RatDog, which was formed out of this duo...
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Okay, although I bagged on Booby, I will say that I enjoyed it when the Dead played some of Bobby's songs. Cassidy and Sugar Magnolia stand out, as well as what I consider his best composition: Throwing Stones. Not to mention On The Road again was a fun Bobb tune. But to be honest, I'd be lying if a lot of the reason that I liked Bobby's tunes is that when he sang, Jerry did some really cool stuff on his guitar. The nice part of Dead shows vs. JGB were the times that Jerry could focus on color/rythm while Bobby sang.
I don't know if I have a true dislike for Bobby's stuff, or if Jerry is too much of a hero of mine for me to want to listen to anyone but him when he is on stage. Yeah, the band is the sum of the parts though, and there were certainly some magical moments that you cannot attribute to one person, you have to tip the hat to all.
So I want to give Bobby credit, and respect. By the way, he does a really nice job with Bruce Cockburn on Whole Night Sky (also with Bonnie Raitt playing a nice slide solo on that tune).
So, bottom line, my opinion of Bobby's contribution is skewed by my overactive hero worship of Jerry. However, went to a Rat Dog show once. I'd rather see SCI...and countless others. I left early. That was strange for a guy that used to take his summers and dedicate them to following the Dead around the country. Perhaps why I left had more to do with me missing Jerry than Rat Dog's performance since it was too soon after Jerry goin on his road (for me).
I think I'll go watch Winterland.
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To simply state, that Bob was just a rhythm guitarist does not give credit to the Dead. Listen to how he progressed as a player. I like to think of his playing style as rhythm-lead, many times he would throw licks in here and their that completely complimented the song. Listen to most bands and the rhythm player is playing strictly chords with no imagination.
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I dare to call myself a Deadhead although I've never had the chance to witness the phenomenon live, and IMHO Jerry needed Bob as much as Bob needed Jerry. Those two guitars in dialogue (and Phil's bass off course) made the Grateful Dead sound. I was watching the Grateful Dead Movie re-release (which I rate much higher than the Closing of Winterland set) and was especially moved by Bob Weir's strong vocal performance. His guitar was often too low in the mix in favour of Jerry's fabulous leads, but I respect Bob Weir as much a I respect Jerry, both as guitar players and songwriters, and I actually prefer Bob's singing to Jerry's. Let's not forget that Jerry could only become an icon with a little help from his friends...
Wilfred
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For incredible example of Bob's rhythm chord selection, listen to Truckin' on Europe 72, specifically after the end of the vocals, as they go into the jam. Jerry and Phil are already into the jam, and Bob pulls out some wild rhythm chords that stand my hair on end.
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Speaking of Europe 72, Bobby is also featured on the end of China Cat after the vocals, before the transition to Rider - a very tasty bit of rhythm work with really nice piano and Phil driving the tempo. =D
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Having never been a Dead fan my exposure to them has been limited to whatever made it to FM radio and a copy of the Anthem of the Sun album that somehow made it's way into my collection somewhere around '68 or '69. I still have no idea how it got there.
This thread however has my curiousity up, especially with this latest discussion about Bob Weir. I really need to give them a closer listen and from what's been written here the live recordings are the best. Is that a correct statement?
Sam
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Wilfred,
I think you can call yourself a Deadhead as long as you love the music. Rest assured, some will argue with you, but that is no different than experiences that I had. I have been told I was not a true Deadhead even after over 100 shows and tens of thousands of miles of driving/flying to see them and JGB and Jerry solo accoustic (with John Kahn on stand up bass) etc... Why? I never dropped acid. I was told that I couldn't be a Deadhead until I had experienced a show while on Acid. Something to do with seeing my sister OD when I was 7 kept me away from such activities. In my mind I'm a Deadhead and that is what counts just like you are a Deadhead in your mind/heart.
That said, some people have no question that Bobby was essential to the Dead. We saw Pigpen, Keith, Brent and various other keyboardists with the Dead. Although the flavor was different, it was always the Dead. As soon as Jerry died, all that is left of the Dead is art and recordings/memories etc. I'm not sure any other member of the Dead would have had that impact on my interpretation of what the Dead was. In fact, I'm really sure that in my mind that Jerry was the heart and soul of the Dead and the truly only essential member of the band.
This doesn't mean that I'm right, but I'm right for me just like you are right in your definition of Deadhead and what the Dead is and who was essential.
All this said, your and other posts have made me put on a few bootlegs and DVD's and listen with a new ear. So thanks for that.
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Sam,
The live Dead is definitely what you want to go for. They were improvisational masters and you don't get a whole lot of the improvisation in studio work. Certainly never near the magic of a live show.
Andrew
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What I really like about the remasters, for instance in the 'Beyond Description' boxset, is that there's not only the 'standard' live bonus tracks, but also studio outtakes and jams. The remastered AoxomoxoA offers some great studio jams too, and maybe some other WB remasters, but I'm not sure. Very impressive, crystal clear Dead-in-the-studio improvisational magic...
Wilfred
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Sam - Live Dead and Europe '72 are fine examples of earlier live recordings that also have the distinction of direct Alembic involvement. I've always enjoyed One From the Vault as well. There are dozens of Dick's Picks live releases and if you want to get a dose of raw live recordings try:
http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php?collection=etree&cat=Grateful%20Dead (http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php?collection=etree&cat=Grateful%20Dead)
Here you'll find thousands of bootlegs and board recordings of various quality (might not be the best place to start, as most of these recordings are not professionally done - check the reviews - but they're free) and you can stream a lot of the recordings.
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one of my favorite shows
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=17768 (http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=17768)
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Andrew: I though the same as you...that it would still be the Dead with the loss of anyone else BUT Jerry. I was wrong...while it was different without him (no one can every replace Jerry), it was still the Dead. Hearing the rest of the band, with supplementation from guests like Warren Haines, Joan Osborn, Steve Winwood, Jimmy Herring/Jeff Chimenti/et al, the vibe was still there.
The moral of the story: Life is seldom ever static...things inevitably change and not usually for the better. The Dead with Jerry constantly evolved, and not always for the best. It's all good, though.
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kmh,
That is very cool that you found the vibe again. Perhaps now that years have gone by, I could do the same. I'll be more open to it from now on. I'm not sure if I'll get it again, but we can hope! I know that when I play my guitar and mumble (aka sing) I sometimes get a feeling that I am connected to that vibe. I don't know why only I should be able to do that for me ;-)
Andrew
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Ck out the Dead on their next tour...if you have an open mind, you won't be disappointed.
BTW, no one sings like Jerry, but Jimmy Herring is an excellent player that certainly has a Garcia-like vibe to his playing.
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Ck out the Dead on their next tour...if you have an open mind, you won't be disappointed.
BTW, no one sings like Jerry, but Jimmy Herring is an excellent player that certainly has a Garcia-like vibe to his playing.
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2005 will be the 40th anniversary for boys, and there are so many rumors concerning them pulling all the stops for this summer..... but who knows?!?!? IMHO the past two summer tours were sub-par save for a couple of hot nights...
Phil is doing rehearsals for his run of shows at the Warfield and the list of people going in & out of their practice space looks pretty diverse. The classic quintet (phil, barraco, molo, haynes, herring) that Phil toured w/ since 2000 seems to be put on a back burner. The whole Phil & Friends interpretation of the repetoire has always sparked more intrigue for me~ the improv has always gone a little furthur, and the energy always seems higher, but again thats just my opinion....
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Will do. We all need people to open our minds now and then and all you guys helped me do that. That's important! Thanks very much
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I was also hoping to catch Weir and Ratdog, but he cancelled just as the fall tour was about to commence citing exhaustion as the culprit.
It's all good...just catch 'em live before somebody else dies. I used to think I had plenty of time to see the Dead with Jerry (and Stevie Ray)...that was until they both died. Luckily, I'd seen the Dead w/Jerry (and SRV) more than once.
(Message edited by kmh364 on December 06, 2004)