Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: David Houck on May 06, 2010, 09:30:12 AM
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In the last few posts to this thread (http://club.alembicguitars.com/index.php?topic=1965), Jonathan, Bill, and Terry have all made thoughtful points that I think are worthy of further consideration and discussion. So I would like to hear from all of you that care about this issue. Please share your thoughts about what limits our forum should have on political discussions.
And for those of you who don't wish to share your thoughts in public, you are welcome to email me. But I do encourage here a thoughtful respectful discussion about what our boundaries should be.
I would suggest that when thinking of what you would allow, consider all of the types of things that could qualify as acceptable posts under the limits you would propose. Consider how the discussion of such topics might make others in our community feel.
For instance, topics that I've noticed as being hot button topics that can really stimulate emotional heated visceral angry reactions are Palestine/Israel, the new immigration law in Arizona, Prop 8 in California, the new Health Care Reform bill in the US, and most recently, off-shore drilling.
I'm not asking you to discuss these topics, in fact for the purposes of this discussion I prefer that you don't. What I am asking is should we have limits on the types of topics that are allowed here, and if so, why and what are those limits, and if not, why not. And if the limits you propose were followed, how would that affect the other members of our community; would they rejoice, would they leave.
And starting with Jonathan's post from yesterday, read every other member's post to this discussion and put yourself in their shoes; understand their position and turn around and look at your position from their point of view. Don't just post your point of view and then be done with it. Consider eveyone's point of view. Go back and forth, discuss the fine points, discuss the gray areas. Examine what is fair, consider what is hurtful.
It is hard for the moderators to know where to draw the line, when to jump in and when not to, what the members of our community want us to do and when. We do realize of course that the members of the community do not all share the same answers to these questions, and that there is no one answer that will please everyone. And like the members of the forum, the moderators will tend to have personal tendencies to react in certain ways to certain statements or actions made by others. However, we also realize that as moderators we have to strive to put our personal feelings about issues aside, and to act in ways that put the community first.
I look forward to reading your responses.
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I would respectfully ask that any discussion that has nothing to do with all things Alembic be directed to the misc. section. That's what it says to do.....
However, I can do like every other forum I frequent, and just bypass those discussions.
I come to Alembic's forum for things having to do with Alembic. I go to political forums for things having to do with politics.
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I am of the opinion, that currently in our culture, there is far too much emphasis placed on shielding and protecting people from being offended. If I allowed myself, I'd be offended every minute of every day, there is so much BS thrown about. I choose to either ignore or confront, depending.
Except for personal attacks, hate speech, and ridicule, I would vote for no boundaries, IN THE MISC thread. With maybe a parental warning posted.
I recently had a posting edited, cause some people took offense. I did not find my posting offensive in the least. At the same time, my opinions and attempts at life's observations are not so important as to cause me the least bit of grief at having them removed. Either way, my dogs still love me, my family still tolerates me, and my basses still play well. In other words, it's SUPREMELY UNIMPORTANT, as is most of the nonsense that offends people.
Peace, JBY
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I believe that this site should be specific to Alembic instruments as well as the rest of musical instruments. Political views need to be stated and or debated @ a political site.
Respectfully Submitted,
Chalie Holmes
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My problem is that I don't go to other sites, cause I don't care for the members in most forums. I like the people here, so these are the folks I want to share with and hear from. But that's just me.....
BTW, my post that got edited was musical in nature, reviewing a concert, not political at all.
JBY
(Message edited by jbybj on May 06, 2010)
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I don't partake regularly in other musical instrument forum's either. I did try a good few years back and i found that my musical experience, desires tastes were not really represented by those forums as it seems most of the ones I visited are rock music based.
I joined here at the time when I was considering my first alembic and it's in the main been great. I've learnt so much about guitars and basses from here alembics and others too. In the main I keep out of the heated debates although my sarcastic side finds it hard to resist the temptation to wind it up but I do resist and avoid those threads.
I can't say I've felt enthusiastic about everyone's FTC build but I can understand someone who is paying a small fortune to have their dream created at Alembic being miffed if someone doesn't share their taste or is saying something they feel is disrespectful. But if you put it out there it's open season for comment.
I guess for me really the forum is about good harmony amongst members with just enough demented intervals to add interest without ruining the music.
Jazzyvee
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Jonathan, Bill and Terry have indeed all made thoughtful points! Perhaps, in that other thread, I was unsuccessful at making my point. So here goes.
Surely it is up to Alembic to decide what level of controversy it will allow on its Forum.
There is a Miscellaneous section which can be used for things other than Alembic-specific material.
A moderator, by definition, is bound to keep things moderate (of average or medium quality etc.) He is going to have his work cut out for him with this bunch. Alembic products are not of average or medium quality, and my best guess is that neither are the people that make up the Company of average or medium quality nor are the contributors to the forum of average or medium quality; certainly this last group is not interested in products of mediocrity. Therefore it stands to reason that discussion on the Forum is not going to be particularly milquetoast.
So, if Alembic is going to allow discussion on topics other than musical intruments and related products, we are going to see thoughts volunteered that are provocative. My opinion is that this should actually be encouraged, rather than censored. Lively, provocative discussion from diverse points of view, when offered in a positive spirit, is what helps us be stimulated and moving forward.
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I guess for me really the forum is about good harmony amongst members with just enough demented intervals to add interest without ruining the music
Jazzyvee, sounds like the basis for a great jam.
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And it was all the above comments and views is why I originally joined in the first place
You know, along with my kids and girlfriend, I feel I can really trust the people here, if I was stuck in the USA and needed help and would find a PC and ask you people for help as I am sure most of you would also but there are some I definitely don't trust.
I have made comments that anger people but a short e mail or post with an apology of my misunderstanding rectifies the offence..have some people just lost their humbleness??
I hope this forum becomes the great meeting place that it is again with some very easy adjustments made by us... the people who contribute
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Dissention is not necessarily a bad thing. It's when things get personal that it becomes a problem. But when one has to resort to personal attacks in order to defend their position, it doesn't say much for the person OR their position. Nearly all of our heated threads were instigated and perpetuated by some of our more colorful members, but a few of our more reasonable members were sometimes drawn into the fray as well. Although I tend to lean towards the freedom of expression camp, one should not impose their narcissism on the good people of this forum and you should always remember where you are and how your comments might affect Alembic.
Although I've never met any of you, I feel like I know all of you. The level of cognition is much higher here than at other forums I have visited. As such, I would value your opinion on any number of topics (not necessarily musical)... it would be nice to be able to have those conversations here. I think the line is the point at which a discussion or comment might have a negative impact on the business of Alembic. But this is coming from a guy who just recently had to stand in the corner because of a comment I made about one of our more colorful members.
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I have taken Art's thoughts into account, type, read and delete. If one feels the same way a day later, then post. I am glad to see Kenner post here as he is a new member but seems to have been a reader of the forum for a while. The rest of the posts have been from long time members. We know what to do folks. Patience and big ears goes a long way in the performance of music and daily interactions. I for one really like being here with you. I have made one good friend here, and had some great conversations with many others. I guess my plea is that we try to understand others point of view and if we can't, then leave it alone. Asking for moderators interference in all but the most disturbing posts seems unneeded. The primary instigator is gone(for now), the dust has settled, and only the memory lingers. It too will be gone soon. Thank you all for taking the time to make this a great place to be.
Nick
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I think James hit it right on the nose:
Except for personal attacks, hate speech, and ridicule, I would vote for no boundaries, IN THE MISC thread. With maybe a parental warning posted.
I just want to know what I should warn my mother about? lol
Bill, tgo
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Bill. as you know, if you upset your mother then it takes half a lifetime to get her forgiveness lol
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I agree with Nick. I don't think there's any need to pre-emptively censor when there's no serious personality conflicts going on between posters. That's going to stifle discussion just because it can be unpredictable, but unpredictable doesn't necessarily translate into bad.
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Rather than re-type what others have previously said and probably more gracefully, I am in agreement with Jonathan, Bill, James and Terry. Respectful discussion.
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I guess for me really the forum is about good harmony amongst members with just enough demented intervals to add interest without ruining the music.
Jazzyvee's comment sums up my feelings. Many other people have expressed that they come to the Alembic Club to get away from all the negativity. When we have discussions that tend to polarize the membership, the harmony is at risk of breaking down.
Often the anonymity of the web makes people meaner than they would be in person. Many sites already exist on the web where you can go to fight about your feelings and thoughts on a variety of topics.
I think the club should have some reasonable lines in place so that discussions don't get too nasty.
Rich
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Dave & The Moderation Team -
Thanks for thoughtful comments and seeking the voice of the community on the moderation issue.
One thread that I would reinforce in this discussion is that we come together a community because of the instruments, but often find that we are kindred travelers on a bigger scale. This is why some of these political hot-button issues pop up - because it's part of the fabric of the world we live in, even though we stake out many different viewpoints.
Since bits are free, may I suggest that you consider adding another Forum area - perhaps Social Discussions or the like? This should bring the best of both worlds - a sandbox of sorts where we can touch on these political/social issues and thrash to our hearts content, with our comrades but in a place that's easily avoidable for those who want to maintain a tighter product focus.
If you need a different set of groundrules and moderation guidelines there, so be it. Short of the kinds of personal attacks and hate speak that infrequently crop up, it can be more no holds barred. The Wild West, or perhaps more like Height Street, 1966. If something pops up in one of the mainstream forums that needs to move, then that can happen too, just like a serial number request here will be redirected.
I don't know if I really believe that this would be a best of all worlds (we're in Alembic group because we don't believe in compromise, right?), but I do think this might be worth a try.
Best regards,
David Fung
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Great idea David Fung don'nt let the politcal crap
polute the great Alembic name!!!!!
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I take great enjoyment in the privilege of being able to participate in this Alembic Club /Forum . Although I have only been an Alembic Club participant on the internet for about a year now I have very fond memories of Alembic while I was a local kid growing up in San Francisco. I remember the 280 Judah St, and the in particular the 60 Brady St. locations . As a young local Musician and later a young local Audio Engineering student at the College for Recording Arts in the 1970's I was an Alembic advocate to bring Alembic's Active technology into the recording studio class room by presenting it to my teacher; Mr. Leo De Gar Kulka. ( he was quite fascinated by it ).
Besides the Alembic Club I am also a member of another forum called the Ampex List this is a technical forum relating primarily to Ampex recording equipment . One of our rules are to try and have Ampex content in our posts and answers. In the Ampex List we have a separate area to post most any other type of issues or thoughts ; we call this area The Back Room . I would agree as to what with Mr. Fung has stated as well and consider adding another Forum area for such discussions. In our profile edit section area we would then be able to make our own personnel adjustments as to what email topics we choose to receive.
Sonic Regards and Love ___________
Wolf
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Most of my thoughts have been expressed above so I'll keep it short. I believe any subject should be open for discussion in the Misc section so long as it's kept civil. Any thread that devolves into a slagging match should be locked by the mods straightaway.
Graeme
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I agree with most of the above. Misc. should be open as long as it's done with respect and stays civil. I've posted in anger in the past on occasion but even in those I've reviewed the post before hitting the button. This is a great place to hang out and great people to hang with.
Sam
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I think my feelings are well covered by Jazzy, Bill, Jacko, et al. I truly appreciate this forum, and return several times a week because I feel comfortable here. I worked in Public Access TV for most of my life, and found that Free Speech and civility can coexist, even in a close community.
Mike
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When I visit the Alembic Club I?m not looking for political discussions, or in fact any other discussion that doesn?t involve Alembic, musical instruments, artists and/or music. In my experience one just can't win a political or religious discussion because they're not based on facts but on opinions, so unfortunately you'll find that on many occasions everyone loses in the end.
Another factor to consider is that although Alembic is an American company, and the majority of Club members is American, the Alembic Club is a global community, simply because Alembic has a worldwide fan base and posters hail from all over the globe. I've seen many political topics go downhill and hit rock bottom because this simple fact isn't taken into account.
So my vote goes to a social discussions subforum under Misc. which I can avoid like the plague, and a complete ban of such topics in the other forums.
Wilfred
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Political Views Belong Here... http://www.bing.com/search?q=political%20forums&mkt=en-us&FORM=TOOLBR&DI=6244&CE=14.0&CM=SearchWeb (http://www.bing.com/search?q=political%20forums&mkt=en-us&FORM=TOOLBR&DI=6244&CE=14.0&CM=SearchWeb)
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By virtue of all that is Alembic, most of us are respectful and courteous of each other. Because of this, I think a sub-forum for anything social would be a great idea. I know I can often learn something new from some else's opinion.
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I'm concerned that a social discussion section will fail to be self contained, and that there will be a potential for hard feelings to escape into other areas of the forum. I'm also a little disappointed that there is so much censoring going on, even before anything nasty or hurtful has been said. I didn't see James post before it was edited, but I really have a hard time imagining that his opinion regarding a concert would be enough to put me in a rage. And the topic seems to me to be relevant to the interests of a bunch of musicians, steering well clear of any of the previously mentioned trouble areas. In the end I side with those calling for a subforum.
You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time
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To the Club,
As a benefactor of the Wickershams hospitality in creating this site, I usually keep quiet about this kind of stuff. But I have a few questions for all to consider.
The moderators? proposition is to allow a variety of new topics, not just politics.
What will be the basis of determining acceptable topics and who decides what?s acceptable?
So, is it reasonable to admit a few new topics and exclude others?
How open is everyone to threads regarding religion, life-choices, abortion, racial issues, etc.?
How can anyone anticipate what another would consider inflammatory?
I don?t consider the idea of including new topics as risky as how the threads may develop. As an originator of a thread, are you prepared to facilitate/moderate the discussion you instigated? That should be more than a consideration; it?s an implied responsibility.
I enjoy the variety of insight and helpfulness I find in this community. I just wanted to inject my thoughts.
Dave,
As stated many times by members, new and seasoned, this site is unique in tone and hospitality. It?s worth maintaining. I?ve always considered the Miscellaneous section the place for odd, humorous and relatively benign chatter. Currently, my preference is to continue with the posted guidelines and keep the Alembic Club related to Alembic and music.
Respectfully,
Mike
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(Sorry to jump in, I just wanted to clear up a couple points.)
- With the increase in moderators there has been an increase in editing for copyright issues, which probably accounts for a good amount of what people are noticing as an increase in censoring. I would imagine that most would agree that we would not want to put our hosts into any kind of situation where they might have to incur the cost of a lawsuit.
- Kevin; I am the moderator that edited James' post. It has been, and continues to be, my view that when the moderators can avoid calling out a member in public, they should do so. Each of us has different views of what is acceptable behavior, so it can be understandable that what one person thinks is ok to post on a public forum, someone else might find quite objectionable. This site is owned and hosted my two women, whom I happen to admire and respect; several members here are women; several members here are teenagers; and there are of course many visitors here who do not post and are not members but do read the threads. There were two posts on our board recently that I personally found objectionable; and I edited them fairly quickly so that others might not see the objectionable parts. And I did not state my reason for the edit in the post because I did not want to call the member out in public. The first that comes to mind referred to a 'mother I would like to f*** and her two daughters'. The second referred to 'passing a drunk barmaid around a biker bar'. Again, some of you may find this perfectly acceptable, this may be the way you talk all the time around your mother and your daughters. But I don't think it acceptable to talk this way around the women, or for that matter the fathers, here at the Alembic forum. So yes, I edited those posts. While such comments may be acceptable for some, they are not acceptable to me; and I will edit them fairly quickly. I do generally email the member first, explaining my objections and giving them a chance to edit the post themselves; but I don't like leaving stuff like that on the board for long and will generally try to move quickly to edit.
Just wanted to make those two observations; please carry on with the discussion. There have been a lot of opinions expressed and ideas put forward; and it has been very helpful.
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I am strongly against an expansion of discussion here to include those social and political discussions that we've always tried to avoid. No matter how you try to keep them respectful, there's always the risk that they spin out of control. Since this should be a place of harmony, divisive topics will bring no benefit to this site.
If it must happen, then the idea of a separate forum for it would be preferred, but I would carry it one step further. Let someone create a Yahoo group, or the equivalent, for such discussions among the friends of Alembic. In that way, it would be entirely optional, it would not impact the atmosphere here, and the opinions presented in such discussions would not reflect badly on Alembic as a company. You could put a link to the off-site forum in the guidelines where you prohibit such discussions here. You might also mention it in threads where you have to moderate for those who forget the rules.
For me, it seems obvious that there is no benefit to Alembic that could come from political discussion on their corporate website. That should be the largest factor in deciding a course of action.
-bob
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Dave,
Enough said. That falls more than a little wide of my definition of a concert review, and I would have done the same.
I don't want election politics, abortion, racism, or any other nasty topic to become the standard fare here. If Alembic does create such a subforum, then it is my intention to never post on it. I apologize to Dave for jumping to conclusions, and it only serves to remind me that I'm probably better off just lurking, rather than posting.
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First, the name of this forum is The Alembic Club. This name appears, at least to my admittedly simple mind, to be a pretty clear indication of the intended focus, not to mention boundaries, of any discussion one would reasonably expect to see or engage in here.( I am also good--like Wilfred says above--with including musical instruments, music and artists in our forum discussions.) Accordingly, I don't see any compelling argument for making social, religious, or political issues topics of discussion among club posters. As Dave has pointed out over and over again, if someone wants to discuss those issues, he/she can do so on numerous other blogs, forums, websites, tweets, etc.
Second, there's been a lot of talk both in this thread and others in the past about censorship, free speech, and in one notable comment I remember from the past year, Constitutional rights. Folks, this is a privately owned, privately maintained site. Sorry, no Constitution here. This site is in existence-- along with free, unrestricted access to it-- solely because of the generosity and kindness of the Wickershams. The fact that you and I have access to the site does not grant us rights. We don't own this site, however frequently we drop in. In the past, Dave has suggested that in this forum we should conduct ourselves as though we were guests (which, in fact, we are), invited into the Wickershams' living room. I may be getting too old (the first number of my age is 6), but one of the principles I was brought up under is that you don't discuss sex, politics, religion, or finances with guests who come into your home. Not that these subjects aren't interesting or important, but not discussing these things can prevent a whole lot of drama, hurt feelings, and damaged or destroyed friendships from occurring.
I agree with Bob's suggestion about an off-site forum for Alembicians wishing to discuss other matters.
Eric
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Hey gang. This is an open letter to the management & members of the Alembic Club. This letter comes at the explicit request of more than one current or ex Club member.
I?m sure many of you will remember me as the ?8 String King?? I used to be a member here, but since terminating my membership have maintained contact with several past and/or current Club members ?some of whom I?ve contacted, some of whom (have) contacted me. Discussions with these individuals have repeatedly resulted in some suggesting I share some thoughts here; until now, I?ve chosen not to make the effort to do so.
What I have to say is entirely well-intentioned, with no malicious intent, and with no intentions other than constructive. I wish to share thoughts which pertain to the topic of this thread, and which are of great relevance and importance to the topic.
After several drafts, I?m just going to try and ramble through and present my thoughts and points in a linear way. I?ll try to get to the point as soon as I can. But one last comment is to make clear in advance that I fully respect the rights of management to run their website however they choose and to allow/not allow whatever they wish, good or bad, rational or irrational. I do not take issue with that, and what I?m about to say isn?t directed at that angle.
HERE WE GO. I used to be a ?senior member? here, and posted/interacted here frequently/regularly. For the most part, I enjoyed the Forum and my interactions here ?although I certainly regularly saw things I didn?t like, including plenty of ?offensive? things. This never bothered me in the slightest. You see, ?offensiveness? is a necessary consequence of open/meaningful dialogue/communication. To be more precise, in order for a forum/medium to be capable of harboring meaningful discourse, it must not attempt to ?dis-allow ?offensive? speech?.
TO BE BLUNT, I hold/submit a/the two-fold argument that (1) the notion that we ?ought? to be protected from ?offense? is flawed to the point of absurdity, and (2) the notion that we ?can? be protected from offense is flawed to the point of absurdity. Both these notions are patently false, absurd, and, when implemented, harmful. And of course what we?re talking about here is CENSORSHIP? when someone decides that another person?s thoughts/words/communications will be deleted/modified to ?protect? some from being offended. Well, from my perspective, this is absurd ?and on several fronts. First of all, censorship is fundamentally flawed because it not only doesn?t solve the (alleged) ?problem? (and, I hold, can?t) but (instead) causes a bigger problem. From my perspective, censorship is infinitely more of a ?problem? than ?offensiveness?. NOTHING that anyone could say, even the most malicious, hate-filled, and profanity-ridden rantings could offend me as much as the mentality of anyone who advocates eliminating their words because they?re ?offensive?. So what?
You see, I take fundamental issue with the whole underlying mentality and suppositions (of censorship); I don?t see it as either possible or even desirable to ?eliminate offensiveness?. I submit that if one seriously attempts to defend the notion that it IS possible and/or desirable to do both, one will not be able to even present a credible position that isn?t absurd and laughable, much less defend it.
You CAN?T eliminate ?offensiveness? with censorship? you can only eliminate what the censor regards as ?offensive?. But the notion that one ?should? eliminate it is highly questionable at the least, and patently false at the most. Allowing all expressions ??offensive? AND ?not offensive? is essential, as the notion that there is a universally accepted standard? should be a self-evident absurdity.
This is a DEEP subject, and one worth of discussion which could go on for quite some length. I?m not inclined to go further, myself. I made the fundamental point. But I?ll add to it, and tell you the censorship policy and atmosphere here has achieved the opposite of the apparent intentions of management? its driven people away. There are at least a half dozen current or ex-members from this Club who?ve explicitly told me they either don?t come here at all now or do so less or just scan the postings but don?t interact here ?because of the policies of management here regarding censorship, and because of the atmosphere that this has created.
See, back when I was here, it was a lot less uptight, but still on a regular basis, individuals would post ?offensive? things. (Remember, from/under my paradigm, this is a given, and in fact there is no possibility it could be avoided.) Sometimes I would be offended by posts, often of a religious or political nature. So what? The question is, ?how did I respond?? And the answer is, ?by communicating?. And surely my responses might well likely be ?offensive? (at least, to ?some?)? how could they not be?
It was always in these situations that the inherent flaws of censorship would manifest themselves. Someone would start a thread of a ?sensitive? nature? something ?political? or ?religious?? something with a PHILOSOPHICAL underpinning (meaning: something of IMPORTANCE). Then responses would be lambasted and/or censored, often/usually with Dave Houck?s flower rainbow-scented ?press the button and hear the repetitious phrase on your talking action figure? ?company line?? I can?t even stand to partially quote it.
Then on one such occasion, Dave completely deletes an ?offensive? post of mine (but of course not the other posts which evidently were satisfactory to his enlightened and almighty self). To add further insult and injury to things, it was accompanied by his little generic ?I may not have meant what I wrote? blurb? no Censor Dave, I meant exactly what I wrote. AND THAT WAS IT FOR ME. I simply won?t spend any time in a forum that? lacks integrity? yeah, that?s it. When you exercise censorship, you eliminate intellectual honesty and integrity, and also invite/encourage self-censorship, and it becomes a much less desirable place.
I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE. I left quietly and quickly, my parting words being ?yeah right? in response to Dave?s BS about how I may not have meant what I wrote. What would be the point of responding in such an environment? Trying to ?prohibit offensiveness? creates an offensive and inhospitable environment. Sure, if we want to sit around and stroke ourselves about how our Alembics are great, we can do that. And it certainly it appropriate to do so. But there?s a lot more to life than that.
We?re in a pretty screwed-up world with a lot of big problems. I submit a large part of that comes from us NOT discussing a bunch of frankly potentially ?highly offensive? subject matter. I would submit that much of the most important things in life involve discussing differing ideas and positions that are almost certainly ?highly offensive?? it?s really just a question of ?to who? and ?why?.
How do we handle offensiveness? Well, not all the same way, that?s for sure. I respond to it, intellectually? that?s what I do. On the other hand, I?ve repeatedly experienced the phenomenon of others ?taking offense? at my communications, and then going off and sniveling to someone (Susan, in, she said, more than one case). Then I one day got a phone call from Susan ?a very polite and respectful but pointed call- regarding my ?problematic? (my word, not hers) conduct. Experience has taught me that those who, to be blunt, apparently lack the maturity, experience, and adult skills to respond to offense in a constructive, enlightened, and adult-like manner instead, like children, basically whine and cry until ?mommy? or ?daddy? or ?whoever?? the ?authority figure(s)?? the CENSOR(s)? respond(s). Yeah.
They bring us all down, these people. Those that can?t handle the inherently negative aspects of communication and honest adult interactions try and put shackles on those who can? and the sad thing is they only bring everyone and everything down ?while not really even achieving their own objectives. The best you can achieve is to eventually have a primarily homogenous group with a transient group of those who come and eventually leave when the underlying implicitly/explicitly monitored/censored environment becomes evident.
Our ability to communicate openly and honestly ?and therefore, OFFENSIVELY- in general, but most especially and particularly ON THE INTERNET, is one of the most important things in the world, literally. It?s actually, I would submit, the best chance our world and civilization has for survival. Most of the problems in the world exist not because there aren?t solutions, but because people are either unwilling or unable to say and/or hear them. Our survival as a planet, a race, and a civilization is a function of the extent to which those who know what is good and those who want to know what is good are able to speak and hear without interference. But this means that all viewpoints, the good and the bad, the ugly and the pretty, the offensive and the inoffensive? must be heard? because there is no way to separate them? other than permitting them all to be expressed and considered.
The whole recent ?problem? that led to all the new mods and the ?board policy changes? was both comical and tragic, and had resulted in even more unhappy Club members who have left altogether or come here less. That problem involved an individual with clear and extensive psychological problems? a ?classic troll?? who was just fed over and over and over by members who then got upset with the troll for doing what trolls do when they?re fed. The whole issue was dealt with poorly? the troll either should have stopped being fed and ignored?. OR, alternatively the troll could have been confronted and collectively given consistent and crushing criticism. Something could have been done? and if no one here had the skills, I can assure you there are others who used to come here who did? but who don?t because of the negative censorship policy here.
I could go on, but I think I?ve made my point. It can be denied, recognized, or downplayed, and that will be up to each individual who considers it.
I write this because the thread itself indicates that perhaps it?s dawning upon some that the idea of a ?free speech zone?? the idea of maybe being able to honestly communicate without fear of censorship here? might be a good idea.
It is. Censorship has degraded and devalued the Alembic website, and actively discouraged members from participating. Once upon a time, there were rich conversations here ?in addition to the back-slapping and stroking. It was a better place, much more fun.
I miss? most of you? and wish you the best. I?m not ?back?? I just re-registered to make this post. I?m not inclined to come back as long as Dave Houck is here in a censoring capacity, and don?t expect that condition to change. But I hope for your sake and the sake of those who don?t participate here (or do so less than they otherwise would) and for the sake of future board members that this horrible policy change is corrected.
Having a ?censorship free? ?free speech zone? in the ?Misc? section should be an absolute minimum for this or any website. To not have such an area is to be part of what causes/perpetuates problems in the world.
One other thing. I submit the idea of some other off-board medium in which members can FREELY and OPENLY discuss things is a bad idea... it's passing the buck. The question is, can members here on this site have honest and uncensored communication HERE? I submit they SHOULD be able to have that. Those who aren't up for it should exercise the discipline to not participate. If you can't deal with reading things you don't like and interacting with others whom you disagree with... don't. But don't try and stop me and others from having this option, and if you choose to, don't play dumb and wonder why it's a less fun place to be.
Sorry for such a long post, I had a lot to say. Hope it means something, 'cause I sure wasn't interested in writing it to hear myself talk. I hope it matters to those here... even and perhaps especially those who disagree with and/or are offended by it.
Later, gang.
(Message edited by masterofmanystrings on May 08, 2010)
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Personally, I think this site is best served by remaining dedicated to discussing Alembics and music related things.
The misc. section is cool because posts there for the most part range from being music related, to topics that are not music related yet do not head off into the political spectrum (for the most part anyway).
Id like to see the boards remain free from a political discussion forum for many reasons. First off, it is pretty much a forum dedicated to Alembic instruments and music, and should remain so. Secondly, from what I see in other forums dedicated to politics, things can get real nasty real fast.
Personally I find this site to be kind of a panacea. I know I can come here and find pics of cool instruments, cool threads about music, or in the misc. section find some interesting (non-politcal) tidbit that is entertaining.
I would also like to point out that alemberic statement above is right on the money. This site exists solely because of the Wickershams, and by visiting this site we are basically guests in their house. I for one would never start a heated political discussion when I am a guest somewhere.
Basically I and many others come here to discuss Alembics and related items. If I want to discuss computers I go to a computer forum. If I want to discuss politics I go here :
http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47 (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
and hope I dont get banned again!!
Looks like someone has also suggested an offsite forum for discussing potentially heated topics...I second or third that suggestion...Maybe build a seperate forum for that on Yahoo or something and post a link for it somewhere here.
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And one more thing for your collective consideration. From my perspective, and from the perspective of several other ex and/or current members -who have elected and/or may (or may not) elect to speak for themselves- the censorship policies/mindset here of discouraging and out outright censoring certain type of posts has created a homogeneous and self-limited enviroment here... it seems that perhaps a majority of people here are either approving or accepting of censorship here, accepting the notion of some other than this forum place in which they can speak freely as being acceptable. Well, from my perspective, why even bother with this site at all? The notion of such a dichotomy in the first place would discredit both sites.
You... (those of you that accept, for whatever reason(s) censorship... in either an internally and/or externally censored atmosphere/environment... have, whether you realized it or not, discouraged (and very strongly so) those with differing viewpoints from... frankly, BOTHERING with you... because, that's what you make it... a bother. Odds are, we find you just as offensive as you find us; but we don't go sniveling or censoring you; we don't suggest that you and your thoughts be censored to protect us or anyone from the horrors of being offended. We do what mature and enlightened people of good intentions endeavor to do... speak honestly and openly.
So many of you here very clearly don't realize how many special people you discourage from coming here... people that might offend you... and might also have interesting and insightful and valuable things to say. They often, if not always, go hand in hand... they can not be separated.
What you... what we... we all have to gain... or lose... from whichever of the two alternatives we advocate and live according to... is something of infinite value. It is not something to dismiss casually. Of course, those who are unable and/or unwilling to grasp this may therefore not have any other choice.
Trying to put any chains or restrictions on communication devalues and diminishes the restrictive forum/format, and the quality of the communication(s) that occurs.
And this is sad.
Allowing and dealing with offensiveness is BY FAR the lesser of the evils. The visable/obvious/immediate AND the more subtle/invisible consequences of these two fundamental alternatives represent 2 opposite extremes of the good and bad continuum.
Anyway, just wanted to add that. I've exactly zero interest arguing the issue with anyone... if it HAS to BE argued, there isn't any point.
Hope my words aren't wasted. Later.
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Okay, I don't want to be a hypocrite, I just said I don't want to argue, and I don't, though what I'm about to post might invite argument. But the last post by Glock after my earlier post is a great example to reference:
Id like to see the boards remain free from a political discussion forum for many reasons. First off, it is pretty much a forum dedicated to Alembic instruments and music, and should remain so. Secondly, from what I see in other forums dedicated to politics, things can get real nasty real fast.
Let me analyze this briefly. I'd like to see the boards remain free from a political discussion forum for many reasons. First off, it is pretty much a forum dedicated to Alembic instruments and music, and should remain so. Okay. Great. Seems reasonable. I agree. So what? Secondly, from what I see in other forums dedicated to politics, things can get real nasty real fast. Yes, that's true. Things can get real nasty real fast... that's always a possibility. How we ought to, and how we do choose to deal with open and uncensored discourse are important and valid questions.
However, there is an implication here that these dots should be connected to imply open political/philosophical/potentially offensive discussion should be banned, the basis being essentially that some people lack the skills to interact with those of highly differing viewpoints with anything other than a degenerative approach.
I resent this tremendously. I have these skills, and I know plenty of others that have them as well; anyone and everyone can identify/develop/acquire the skills to interact with those of differing viewpoints in a civilized and non-degenerative way... IF they choose. If they choose not to, that is their sad choice/perrogative... but the notion that myself and others who have NOT made that choice, and who have instead chosen to learn to deal with others in a civilized way, using rational (and frequently/inherently offensive) discourse... should have our options restricted because of THEM... it's punishing (arbitrarily, and in advance) the virtuous for the vices of others. No exaggeration.
If you don't like the channel I'm watching or the music I'm listening or the thoughts I'm either listening to/seeing and or speaking/writing... then don't watch/listen. If you don't have what it takes to interact in a mature way... don't. But don't use YOUR shortcomings to restrict those who choose not to be so limited.
To do so is ignorance... until once you realize that that is what you're doing. Once you DO realize this (or willfully evade the realization), you've then crossed over into something much worse.
You want to place limits on the communication that occurs here? Well, you'll succeed, and beyond what you realize. You have already succeeded... you have greatly limited what occurs and is communicated here... by creating an environment that very strongly discourages people from consistently openly and honestly expressing their thoughts.
One of the most absolutely important and wonderful things in life, and something which countless people fought and died for, is our ability to freely and openly communicate, and argue, and, on those occaissions where all parties involved are so inclined, for egos and insecurities to be cast aside in favor of identifying errors and contradictions, and learning, and growing and improving.
To censor in any way is to attack the whole essense and underpinning of that process/structure.
In short, censorship causes far more harm than anything that is or could be censored; the only questions are how much more harmful and how obvious vs. subtle the harm is.
Okay, I'm going away now. I'll be curious to see what impact, if any, this has. You may or may not hear from a few other current or ex-members who've encouraged me to share may thoughts, but it's not my place to quote any of them.
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Lots of opinions here, and many relevant points. I'll keep my two cents as brief as possible.
An area in the miscellaneous section of the club will work only if all accept and understand that there will be things there that may make one's blood boil. Also, it will work only if folks agree to remain civil, e.g., at some point agree to disagree and move on, no name calling, etc. Finally, it will work only if the Wickershams, the owners/operators of this site, agree to allow it, period.
One thing for them to consider (if they haven't already) - do you really want a place on your company's website where politics/religion etc. are discussed? I've visited other company websites (Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, Musicman, Pedulla, etc.) and none of them have a place on their sites for such discussions that I can see. If it were me, I'd say no. If there is to be such a forum, I'd recommend that it be linked elsewhere. As I said, if I'm the Wickershams I wouldn't want this on my site. Alembic is a musical instrument company, not a political think tank.
As for Dave Houck ....
Dave, IMHO has a very difficult job (as does any moderator on any site). While I don't necessarily agree with what some here might term his touchy feely, new age approach, I can appreciate the difficulty he faces in moderating the site. I've personally met Dave, and while I don't know him very well, from the interaction I've had here with him he is a reasonable person. I have, on occasion, made his job harder via interaction I've had here with certain individuals. Even when I caused him headaches, he was reasoned and balanced in his responses and actions. I'd submit that the fact that things are as civil as they are here is a testament to him, and the other moderators.
Alan
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Manystrings:
I see your point, and to a certain extent agree with you but:
a) Even though this forum is open to the public, the servers are privately owned by the Wickershams. Being privately owned, there should be no expectation of free speech. I have pretty loose rules when people come to visit me at my private residence. No hard drugs, don't bring people Ive never met before, and don't bait me with by trying to get me to react to a topic you know I am sensitive to (Im pretty laid back, but I do have buttons that for some reason certain people like to push). If people break these rules, they are simply asked to leave and are not welcome back. It is my house, and I set the rules and ask that people respect them, if people do not like that they dont have to come over. The same goes when I go to visit others, I respect any rules they have in place, and I stay away from topics that I know they may be overly sensitive to as my desire for their company outweighs my desire to get into a discussion with them on a topic they may be sensitive to.
I think Alan has hit it right on the money that in a way, this forum does represent Alembic, and I think it is highly inappropriate to have a section of the forum dedicated to what could possible be heated and confrontational issues. There really are a ton of places on the internet for that.
One suggestion I do have.....Make the damn box that you type you reply in bigger!!! lol..
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Having read the previous lengthy posts, I would like to post a brief counter in reply.
Simply put, the Alembic website is not the world. There are all sorts of venues out there. It wouldn't be appropriate to start playing trumpet in the front row at a pro basketball game, or in the audience at the symphony. Is it censorship if security takes your trumpet away? I don't believe anyone who wishes to keep political and religious discussions from these boards is saying they shouldn't occur. We just believe this is the wrong venue.
This site should exist at a business level to promote and support Alembic products. The further removed any conversation gets from thk,ose goals, the less appropriate it is for these boards. I would argue that more of the world's problems are caused and perpetuated by selfishness and the feeling of entitlement that has developed in our society over the past couple generations than by restricted communication.
I will agree on one thing, though. I have, on occasion, found some of Dave's moderator speeches to be offensive. They occasionally come across as condescending with all the word-smithing and that can feel more rude than the straight forward approach. I would ask that the moderators remember that members here are generally educated adults and should be treated as such. Keep it short, respectful and on point.
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Is this something that requires a vote?
Would it really matter as majority rules may marginalise the minority vote.
Should this site be an Oligarchy?
If there were two options would they be, either;
1. Provide a place in this forum for topics that may offend some people
2. Continue as currently managed i.e. No changes.
Personally I like the Club, the people, the products and the overall pleasantness of the participants and I have done so for a good many years even before becoming a member.
This forum and the discussion topics are civilised, interesting, educational and beneficial.
It makes my music world a better place.
It is complete in its representation of all that is good about music and those people who are involved in the creation of music.
I would like - No changes
slawie
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Why don'nt you all look at the name of the site we are on The Alembic Club for members to talk about a great product,and get help from Mica and the crew if required.There are plenty of political sites to talk crap on,as my friend Slawie who lives down the road from me in OZ says No changes just get the site back on the Alembic track
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I agree a lot with Mark (manystrings) except that I don't have a problem with Dave and I don't think Alembic has any obligation to allow posts that deal with politics, religion or anything other than music. I haven't agreed with everything Dave has written, but I have no reason to believe that he wasn't doing what he thought was right and fair. There have been one or two people here who I think are instigators, and some of that led to me not having much to say here.
There probably is no good solution, but I think the best thing to do is to immediately remove all threads that start out about politics (I don't think I've ever seen a post here about religion). There doesn't need to be an explanation, just remove it. Make a rule and live by it, no exceptions. There might still be some people who can't resist writing about politics inside of a thread, but nipping every bogus thread in the bud will deal with most of the problem.
The only other forum I participate in is at Carvin. I've only seen a few inappropriate posts there, and I've seen them disappear pretty quick. There's no apology, no explanation, they just disappear. If people want to write about politics they should go somewhere else. It's as simple as that. Some people might get angry when their post gets deleted and they might stop posting here, but you're going to lose other people when you let little things turn into big things.
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This situation relates somewhat to my experience in the doctor's lounge. Most physicians tend to be very conservative... and arrogant. As such, Faux News is CONSTANTLY blaring in the background and there are some pretty hard-core opinions about pretty much EVERYthing floating around the place. Let's just say my own attitudes are left of center. Everyone is aware of that fact and we just live and let live. We might have a discussion about a potentially hot topic, but we back-off when it's clear someone is starting to get agitated. We can do that because we are in the same room and reading each other's body language. That is lost in electronic communication. I would like to think that (name your favorite forum troll) would have backed-off had they been in the room and took notice that their comments were causing some distress. In this medium someone HAS to referee or chaos WILL ensue. We're just trying to define the line. I again propose that the line is the point at which Alembic's business or reputation might be compromised.
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Mike,
Thanks for the gratuitous swipe at Faux News. You've just concisely demonstrated why politics have no place here.
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Haha. I happen to like like fox news. I'm offended and leaving, and taking my alembics with me !
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It's already been stated here, but if we're trying to gauge reaction then I'll weigh in as well.
I don't come to this website to read politics, religion, etc. I come here because I think Alembic makes incredible instruments. Additionally, this is by far the most helpful internet forum I've ever frequented. Technical questions, music theory, band advice... responses to problems are respectful, well thought out and timely. THAT is why I frequent this forum on a daily basis.
I don't come here to read social commentary, scientific debate or political soapboxing. I also don't think that the Misc. section should become a free for all for those interested in having political/religious discussions. There are a lot of great topics ad conversations that happen in Misc that I would entirely skip over if I thought that the Misc section was going to be open to conversations that I have no interest in reading.
It is my opinion that Alembic will be hurting their corporate image by sponsoring such a subsection of the forum. Potential clients certainly do check the website and forum before purchasing- that's how I stumbled across this forum almost 8 years ago. Alembic may well attract a small minority by opening this forum up to political and religious debates, but I think the vast majority of new users and/or clients would be turned off by heated debates and controversial topics.
The bottom line is that this is ALEMBIC's bottom line. This is not a public forum- it's privately owned. Alembic should do what they think is best and to be perfectly honest, I think we all should be grateful to have the platform for discussion that they ultimately choose and provide.
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Mark,
I hope the 8 and 6 strings are serving you well. Even if you decide to never post content here again, I'd love to see some more pictures or get an update on how they're treating you. An update to your showcase thread or an email to the address in my profile would be much appreciated.
Take care,
Toby
(Message edited by tbrannon on May 09, 2010)
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Did I spell that wrong??? LOL
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Regular comedian, eh?
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(Message edited by eligilam on May 09, 2010)
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I find this discussion about discussions as riveting as some of the discussions we've been discussing...Seriously, though, last year when I traveled to Scotland I went with a co-worker who is as polar opposite in his socio-political views from mine as you could possibly imagine. But we knew we'd have a great time because our mutual obsession with single malt scotch would make everything else momentarily irrelevant.
For two weeks we set aside our differences and had the time of our lives. As I'm drinking in the pictures and articles in this forum I have the same feeling. It's not that I don't care what folks here think about all the divisive hot-button issues that seem to have the whole world going crazy; but this forum is a reminder (for me, at least) of what makes all of us more alike than different.
But if I was really, really upset with something that was posted, I'd probably be more inclined to respond privately, if possible. BTW, this is still my favorite forum out of all the ones I frequent. Thanks for that!
-Sam
legionkondor@hotmail.com (mailto:legionkondor@hotmail.com)
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Masterofmanystrings, I am curious why you feel the need to lay down such a detailed screed to a place which you state is in your rear view mirror. If you are not here, why should we incorporate the standards you seek? It's one thing to have a moderator who's active in the experience of the participants (which is a thankless job at times, no matter how objective and fair you try to be. I have been a moderator from the most contentious times at The Bottom Line, so I know what that's like), but to try to live up to the standards of someone who doesn't even want to be a part of the community just seems silly. Blasting out the last word and then telling everyone that you won't even discuss it isn't really all that helpful. If you feel that you really have the perfect formula for running a board like this, I would love to be a member. However, I do hope you decide to stick around here in the long run.
In fact, the whole thing seems a little blown out of proportion in that we're creating more heat around the idea of conflict instead just dealing with the small amount of conflict that we sometimes have. All in all, this is one of the best behaved boards I've seen (go check out the political sections at Gearslutz or Talkbass, if you want to see how that might play out here).
At the end of the day, this place does belong to the Wickersham's and it's awfully nice that we get to discuss what the protocol might be but it's not a democracy. The best path seems to me is for us to all behave like adults and try to keep our inflammatory political statements to ourselves (we all have them, I can be one of the worst). Sometimes they do get posted, but if we see something inflammatory, let it go. So someone takes a gratuitous swipe at Fox News. Everyone knows it's a gratuitous swipe, no matter which side of the issue you are on, so it doesn't need to be pointed out in the thread, just move on. If no one responds to gratuitous swipes, the threads stay cooler and the swiper will probably quit swiping, either out of realization that it might not have been the best thing to say, or, if they are a troll, which I don't think was the case here, they will quit trolling because all a troll seeks is reaction. If you really have to say something, take it offlist. I've done that and it always works out fine. I'm with Slawie, I'd like no changes. This board is a big house with many rooms, if you don't like the conversation in one, go to another and chances are the conversation you don't like will peter out or maybe morph to something more interesting. It's like music, some of us might not tolerate metal while others might find jazz pretentious, but it all can be played on an Alembic. If a post really bothers you, call security and move on.
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... I find the first 2 of 3 posts before Toby's 2 back-to-back posts to (apparently) be a perfect illustration of the ridiculous uptightness here... and, at the same time, how current policy discourages many people who are NOT so uptight from being here.
Thanks for the gratuitous swipe at Faux News. You've just concisely demonstrated why politics have no place here.
As I read this it's hard for me to really integrate and grasp the notion that this is a serious comment... that someone actually did (and/or actually COULD)... be offended by this. I'm still not actually sure. I'm actually not sure if pas is serious or joking... though I'm interpreting the former to be the case.
If so, this is *in my opinion, from my perspective* ridiculous beyond measure. But whatever.
What I find possibly even more remarkable is Toby's quote It is my opinion that Alembic will be by sponsoring such a subsection of the forum.
Wow. What a remarkable statement. So... allowing a section (... and JUST one section)where people can speak frankly and freely on matters of any/all importance might hurting their corporate image. Wow. How?
I assert that assertion is preposterous. I further assert that NOT allowing AT LEAST one section in which people can speak freely without censorship speaks much more, and much more negatively.
Whatever. You can do whatever you want. You -as individuals, and collectively- can reason, or you can rationalize... or you can attempt to do both. Those are your options, and your only options.
You can support the one paradigm -in which case you're logically obligated to support its preconditions and requirements- or the other paradigm... or you can try and combine them and see what results you get.
In fact, it's all been done before and the results are consistent and predictible.
You can choose to do whatever you want. You have the right to do so. This is not in question.
But, for your own benefit and sake, KNOW what you do... and be honest about it.
Be honest about what you're debating/discussing/considering.
There are PLENTY of people who DO have the skills to engage in civil and ration discussion about the many extremely important things in the world OTHER THAN the commonality of Alembic instruments that likely initially drew most of us here. This is plain fact that can not be rationally denied.
It is also plain fact that A LOT of people -who DO/HAVE/MIGHT/WOULD/WOULD STILL come here... do so at least partially for this UNIVERSE of richness... for the fact that we can, in our communications, discuss... well, in theory, anything and everything. Why not?
For me, the notion of censoring anything anywhere is preposterous, and moreover, just plain alien. Why? You see, I don't have anything to fear. There isn't anything anyone can say that can have power over me... I learned an old rhyme about sticks and stones quite some time ago, and it's true.
But okay, I get that some people haven't developed or aren't willing to exercise the skills that myself and others DO have. Experience has taught me frankly that most if not such individuals are in actuality choosing to be self-limiting... but, if so, or not... that is their choice.
However, they shouldn't be limiting me.
AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. Yeah.
To be blunt, from my perspective, anyone who confesses that they are unable or unwilling to deal with open, honest, and offensive communication is confessing a profoundly disturbing and problematic condition that I can not regard in any way other than like a physical and/or mental disease, or addiction, or serious negative condition.
In such cases, I sympathize with such individuals, and hope they will choose to make the best choices to change their conditions, and I will tend to help them to the extent they're willing.
But I will never accept and will always resent the notion of them putting chains or limitations on me and others because of the negative choices they make.
If you're not up for open communication... don't engage in it. If you don't like reading something... don't. If you don't like listening to something... don't.
Censorship is about the worst in/of us... about the lowest common denominator... calling the shots and restricting the best in us.
This is a profound and important truth that can either be recognized or evaded. The consequences can also be recognized or evaded. In either case, they exist, and, though subtle, are far-reaching.
Censorship doesn't, and can't protect us from anything; but it can and does divide us, and subject us to different and inconsistent treatment. That's a fact, and you only need consider it to see that it is so.
I would go so far as to argue that free speech and survival go hand and hand, and advocating censorship is advocating that which is contrary to our survival and well-being.
I hold that any and all arguments -and I've heard 'em all- that we need to be protected from offensive/free speech are preposterous. And be clear, you can NOT separate free speech from offensive speech... nor can either of these be separated from meaning or important speech...
It's quite a thing to advocate restrictions on speech and communications; you can't do so without opening many cans of worms and causing many consequences.
In my opinion, only the profoundly clueless and deluded fail to grasp that these consequences and problems are not only MUCH MORE SERIOUS than the alleged problems censorship/restrictions on open communcation supposedly prevent... BUT are in fact far greater concerns than anything that COULD result from open communication.
Let us ask, consider, and answer the question, what's the worst that can happen if free/uncensored speech occurs? Well the answer, gang, is those individuals that are so self-limited by choice that they feel they must leave any sites where they see things that offend them... will leave.
In fact, this is a given that nothing can change. Including attempting to cater to them.
Again, you can do what you want. But again, you should be honest about it, and aware of the consequences.
If you want to allow the lowest common demoninator... or let's just say those that are unable or unwilling to acquire/exercise the adult skills that myself and plenty of others have to engage in open, free, uncensored, and offensive communication... and all the incredible rewards and benefits and horrors (I personally don't see any at all, even one) -to keep those who ARE capable of doing do from doing so... be honest about it, and realize that there are a lot of people who aren't going to come here.
Ultimately, censorship, and an environment in which free and open (and therefore offensive) communication is forbidden... is ultimately more harmful and offensive than any supposed evil or concern it might address.
See, as part of a larger issue, what really needs to happen is that those who have the ability to reason and integrate, and rationally and civilly discuss and argue... let's say ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING OF IMPORTANCE... should be able to do so freely and without interference from those who can't or won't... and should be able to help those people get better (to whatever extent they're willing, and for those for which that is not at all, that is, of course, their (sad) choice.
What should NOT happen in the world, in any way shape or form, in any arena, is for those who can and do have the ability to engage in such discourse to have their ability to do so undermined by those who choose a more limited path.
If you don't want to think, fine, but don't keep me from doing so.
If you're not up for reasoning, fine, but don't try to keep me from doing so.
If you're not up to reading things you disagree with and responding in a rational, civilized, reasoned, and adult-like manner, and communicating in an open fashion, and with all that entails and implies... don't. Your loss.
But if you support restricting others abilities to do so, you're... something bad, shameful, and something which is responsible for the harm and evil in the world.
No kidding.
The choice is up to you. But you can't escape the consequences. So be honest about it. Take the blinders off and try and look at the infinitely bigger picture than the tiny sliver you -those of you that advocate an other-than-uncensored environment- are seeing.
For my parting comment, I'll add I don't expect my words to register much here. From what I can tell, most who do or would agree with me have already left, and those who've stuck around are a self-selected bunch that does consider such an environment acceptable.
From my perspective, frankly, the place seems to be a lost cause... as far as a place I'd feel welcome and inclined to participate in. And I'm not the only one. And I've taken the time to explain in great, explicit, and clear detail, and in very reasonable terms -why this is so.
Later, folks. I don't expect to be back to post again, after this, but I'll leave the door open. I'll check in in a couple days or weeks and see if I see any indication what I've said actually registered with and meant anything to anyone, or whether it was a waste of time. My expectation that the latter will be the case (along with the expectation/possiblity that my post(s) would just plain be censored) is why I've not made this effort before.
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I would not like to see the proposed feel free to tear each other's throat out section; I don't believe that it would take long for any acrimony generated therein to make itself felt in the rest of the forum, thus 1) ruining the whole thing and 2) casting a bad light on our gracious hosts & their business.
On the other hand, as I consider the two ugliest words in the English language to be mandatory and forbidden, neither am I in favor of stricter guidelines as to political & religious references. The current guidelines ask that we refrain. For the most part we do, and that really does seem to work well most of the time; as others have pointed out, this about the most civil forum going.
Now, if you want to propose hard-and-fast rules on all-cap posting, repeatedly responding to your own posts when no one else is, making your instrument the subject of every thread, belligerent reaction to any and all disagreement, or general incoherence, that's a different matter .
Peter
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I want to see a cage match between the_eight_string_king and hendrixclarke!
Oh, and our physicians' lounge also shows lots of Fox News...but it's mostly because Martha MacCallum is on during the lunch hour.
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I remember back in the day when there were no TVs in Dr's office - only horrible Muzak. Or worse (again, back in the day) disco. But I've got to say - Fox News has some hotties! ;-) Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion ....
Alan
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I get the feeling that this thread would be better located in the miscellaneous forum. It's only been three and a half days, but it seems like most of what needs saying on this topic has been covered. I think we've come to the part of the program where Susan and Mica consider what has been said, their feelings, and the needs of Alembic. We can keep talking about it, but I don't expect we'll hear any new arguments.
-bob
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My doctor's office has none of the above. Just some magazines. My dentist's office, on the other hand, is very groovy. It's got wonderful large format art books to peruse (and great paintings by my dentist's wife) and a raw food kitchen. While you wait, they bring you exquisite concoctions, sometimes desserts, to enjoy. They also offer massage and other techniques to make it a stress free visit. I've never looked forward to going to the dentist before (although the dentist is a little bit like Dr. House, although mostly with his staff and never with the patients.).
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Wow; what a great dentist office! If it wasn't so hard to get to from here.
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I just Googled Martha MacCallum... I'll have to start paying more attention to Fox!!!
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I want to see a cage match between the_eight_string_king and hendrixclarke!
Yesssssss!!!!!
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The more I think about it, the more Im surprised this is even being discussed.
I mean seriously, this is first and foremost a MUSIC related forum, why on earth would someone want to bring their possibly controversial views here when there are so many better places to post those things where people go that actually WANT to read stuff like that.
A quick look at some other music related forums reveals that no politcal/social commentary section exists for the ones I saw. Likewise, a quick look at forums that cater to two of my other interests (photography and firearms), reveal that for photography none of the ones I frequent have a politcal/social forum, and for the firearms related websites, revealed that some did and some did not.
As for the issue of moderating, get over it and get used to it. As it has been said before this is a privately owned forum and as such free speech has limits here. There is another website I belong to that performs much more heavy-handed moderating than what goes on here, and I often had posts disappear without any explanation. Eventually I was banned for violation of the forum rules. It was only after that I was banned that I went back and read the rules of that forum, and realized there was a reason for their existence. I was allowed back in eventually, with the promise of complying by the rules of this PRIVATELY owned forum.
My insensitive and heavy-handed advice is that to those who dislike they way that this PRIVATELY run forum is managed, is to either acccept it as one of the many places in life that exist that have rules in place, or to start your own forum.
Peace Out
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glocke..I totally agree, I am a member of a motorcycle forum, the only political items we discuss is government restrictions on motorcyclists.
All the other items are on improving your bike, bike meets, events, MotoGP, BSB & WSB race results etc.
No one in the many years I have been a member(longer than I have been a member of this forum) has ever gone down the sensitive road and upset anyone.
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Well, I don't know if I'm a 'you' or a 'we', but I just wanted to talk about Alembics and musical pursuits. I always viewed this as a small escape from politics and religion and so forth.
I've always felt like the little scene from 'Crocodile Dundee': If I have an opinion about such things, who's gonna hear it way out here?
J o e y
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I played my bass yesterday with other friends/musicians. No one censored a single note. I was free to express myself in any way I chose. It was the perfect forum for my free an unfettered expression. It felt GREAT.
I'll keep coming here as long as I'm allowed. I like it here.
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Did I missed something?
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I would have posted in this thread sooner, but I got too engaged in a debate on neckthru vs set neck over at wallstreetjournal.com. Can't believe how little those yahoos know about sustain.
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James - awesome! And those over there do indeed know little about sustain! ;-)
Alan
(Message edited by ajdover on May 10, 2010)
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DUDE! How long was I out?!
OO
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Not more than a couple hours.
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LOL!
Hi Olie!
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Sure seemed longer.
Hi Dave! I missed ya'll!
OO
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We've missed you too!
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Olie???................Malthumb???
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Olie:
I've been wondering where you've been. Welcome back!
Bill, tgo
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Good to see you Olie!
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Thanks guys, I've just been REAL busy!
OO
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It's a reunion! That makes all of this worth it.
Welcome back!
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The solution to all this is so blindingly obvious! Everyone should just think exactly like I do and then you'd all be right. To achieve this blissful state of enlightenment, just have Paypal transfer your entire life savings into my account (if they haven't done it already) and I'll enlighten you directly, starting with the freedom you'll feel once you're unencumbered by all those excess assets. I'll be right here by my computer...
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Oh, I've been around. Just a bit more silent than usual. Have to save my singing voice.
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In all seriousness, I have been around, mainly popping in and out of the Basses & Guitars forum, the Showcase forum, and the Factory to Customer forum. Ocassionally I bounce into the For Sale / Wanted, etc forum. I stay the heck out of the Misc forum for reasons made very evident in this thread. If I want to argue with someone on the net, (argue, not debate) I have more than my share of opportunities to do so elsewhere.
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I think Monty Python was prescient about the nature of internet interactions. I'd post it here, but it's way too long:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm (http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm)
Or for those who prefer to view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM)
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(http://club.alembicguitars.com/Images/393/79859.jpg)
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Keep The Alembic Forum West Coast!
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So, to reprise every kid on a road trip vacation with the parents, are we there yet?
For all the people who wish to take this particular discussion seriously, I think the tangent of the last series of posts might be viewed as disrespectful. I know that, If I were making such a petition, I wouldn't be entirely amused. I believe we owe those members the respect to consider the request seriously and come to a timely conclusion even if we are opposed to the idea. This tangent also reinforces for me the idea that this thread may have run the course.
I will admit that my mind was pretty much made up before this thread was started. In spite of that, and trying to read with an open mind, I haven't seen any compelling reason to think differently. I suspect that this is true of most participants on both fundamental sides of the issue. This leaves us in the position where we can either stew on it eternally, or we can agree to disagree and be at peace with whatever decision Alembic makes. If it wasn't already obvious, I prefer the latter.
If anyone wishing to engage in political and social discourse is willing to do a little work, I tested the creation of a Yahoo group for such a purpose. It takes about five minutes to set up such a group. It can be configured to be unlisted through Yahoo, and to allow access only to group members for both reading and posting. Whoever creates the group would become the owner and be able to approve members and assign moderator privileges. There is a little overhead, but that's the expected cost of using a third party to host such a facility. There are probably other options for this as well. If someone wants to take this responsibility on and would like a little coaching, let me know. Worst case would be that it wouldn't achieve traction and a little time would be wasted. I believe such a private forum would only need enough moderation to avoid legal issues such as copyright infringement or libel.
-bob
PS - I did find the WSJ comment to be both amusing and directly on point. Thanks, James!
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Thanks to everyone for their ideas and opinions and helpful advice. We?ve read all the posts, and as the thread progressed I think we found ourselves going back and forth on which way to go; so many of the points that were presented on both sides were valid, reasonable, and considered.
After reading through the thread, and after much of the discussion among the moderators, Mica stated ?I think it?s about balance?. For me, this tied everything together; and I had to smile at how beautifully that one word summarized the whole discussion.
Several members mentioned that they had noticed that moderating had perhaps increased a little too much. We agree; we?re thinking that perhaps with the increase in the numbers of moderators and the ?learning curve? that the new moderators faced, we may have been a little too exuberant in our efforts. We have been reviewing some of our past decisions and reexamining where the ?line? is in different types of situations.
There was something close to an even split among members responding to the thread between those who wanted to loosen up and expand allowable areas of discussion and those who wanted things to stay the same as they are now. Both sides presented good reasons for their positions. There were also a significant number of comments, sometimes from those who didn?t express a preference for one side or the other, that stressed the importance of maintaining harmony and of maintaining and enforcing the rules related to sexism, racism, personal attacks, etc. In fact it does seem that pretty much everyone agrees on those points; there was not much in the way of suggestions that such rules be abandoned.
After it was initially suggested, there were several good points both for and against a separate section that would to some degree or other be less restrictive on politics and similar discussions. The moderators had some back and forth on that as well.
The many people that wanted to keep things the way they are now were passionate in their feelings that it was important to do so, and set forth good reasons why we shouldn?t change. And the many people that wanted to loosen things up were equally persuasive in their reasoning and in their feelings on the importance of doing so. In my view, neither side on this issue is ?wrong?.
But of course we can?t both change the rules and not change the rules; and if we choose one side over the other, a number of people will be, to one degree or another, disappointed.
So here?s what I?m thinking. First, the moderators will try to be a little less exuberant in their moderating; we?ll try to be a little more mindful of cutting some slack, giving a thread a little more time to calm down, and giving the members a bit more of a chance to self moderate. Second, when an existing thread in the misc. section starts veering off into ?politics?, we will, depending on the topic, try to take more of a wait and see approach. However, in my view, for this to work, given the feelings expressed by so many of our community, when a member ventures off into ?politics? they should only do so after giving due consideration to how others in the community might react. I think it important that, for each of us, respect for all of our fellow club members should be something that we never lose sight of.
The separate section idea was a good one, and the moderators did talk about how we could set it up. But considering the opinions expressed by the group as a whole, I?m thinking that?s too big of a move from where we are now. I?m also a bit wary of new threads being started specifically on ?political? issues, although there I can see where some small amount of leeway on the part of the moderators may be prudent.
I admit where it is difficult for me to see how this will play out, and it does seem to me that there will be many topics that, when we first consider how others in the community will feel to their being broached on our board, should never be introduced.
A few things to keep in mind;
- This is Alembic?s place of business, and it is an extension of the Wickersham?s home. What we write here reflects on the company and the family.
- There are politicians, commentators, radio personalities, reporters, news anchors, news networks, political parties, ideologies, grassroots organizations, etc. that some of us may highly respect, the same ones of which others of us may think are completely nuts. Because some of us tend to be passionate about these things, I think it important to keep in mind that if you write that a certain cable commentator is insane, there will be others in our community that will take that as a personal attack.
- This is a global community. In the spirit of treating each other with respect we should be mindful when writing about other countries, other world leaders, other regions, etc. that our fellow members come from countries all over the world.
On the idea of staying out of a thread if you find it offensive, I would offer this. If someone is passionate in their views of say global warming, and that person knows that there is a thread in the misc. section wherein their views are being trashed by some of their fellow members, even if that person elects to stay out of the thread, it still hurts.
Finally, one thing that we noticed when reading through the responses to the thread; we have a really great group here. When reading through this thread, I don?t think you can help but come to the conclusion that this is just a great group of people. For the moderators this, unexpectedly, was the big ?take away? from the discussion. And for that, we would like to thank all of you.
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Cheers!
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The worst thing I have ever seen on this site was a quote by a long time member using teh N-word. I was very upset by such a racist post.
Vann-Di Galloway
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Yes it was me..I was quoting it from 'Blazing Saddles'
Sorry for so much upset..I regret it deeply and I am ashamed that I said it in the first place Apologies to everyone and I hope I get forgiveness.
(Message edited by TerryC on May 13, 2010)
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In Terry's defence, Blazing saddles is an immensely funny movie which attempts to highlight the stupidity of racism. The quote he posted, while offensive when taken out of context is part of one of the funnier scenes in the movie. Taking comments out of context and missing the body language that goes with them is always going to be one of the problems with an online forum and as many people have already said, it's worth reading what you've written then thinking really hard about whether or not to post it.
Graeme
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Apology accepted. Not pointing fingers, simply showing an example of how an off topic thread led to something totaly unintended.
Vann-Di
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Well, as I pretty much expected, most of my comments don't seem to have registered at all... at least with most of the posters at the site here.
On the other hand, I received several private emails from others who explicitly agreed with what I wrote. I am choosing to post just the most recent, and from an individual I've not corresponded with before, and who I won't name.
Right on the money! I quit hanging at the club for many of the reasons you mentioned, and I am quite grateful that you took the time to post your (our) thoughts there. Let's hope that someday it goes back to being the place we used to enjoy so much. I seriously doubt it will, but it will not change unless little pushes are made on those who seems unable to move themselves. Thanks!
I could post plenty of others, but there wouldn't be any point, and this one illustrates the point just fine.
Isn't the POINT of whatever policies the PTB choose to have to promote harmony and coziness... and NOT JUST to a small self-selected sub-group...? Because THAT'S what the policies here have done. Perhaps those that've stuck around find it cozy and harmonious... but myself and others find it exactly the opposite, and don't come here because of it. From OUR perspective, it's at the least less cozy and harmonious that it used to be, and certainly neither cozy nor harmonious in general.
... Again, my prior comments just don't seem to have registered AT ALL, as, to the extent there have been responses, they indicate a consistent failure to grasp and respond to my primary points -which were quite clear.
Let me try a different approach. The processes we go through to communicate in this forum and in this medium are basically the same as if we were all sitting at a table. Sure there are differences; if we're all actually there we can't speak at once and must give and take, alternate between speaking and listening, and so forth.
But the processes of listening... of evaluating and integrating what others say and of responding, including making efforts to think and choose, and communicate in a natural way and with integrity... there's no difference. At least not for me.
The majority of those I choose to hang with in situations other than work are really cool people who are free of malice, and who speak their minds honestly as I do, and WE do not have any problems with this... ever.
Free speech, and allowing free speech doesn't cause problems... ever. No fooling. What causes problems is people -meaning individuals (meaning specific individuals)- choosing to be malicious, irrational, or both.
In such cases, catering to the malicious and/or irrational by limiting free speech, and depriving everyone (including, most especially and importantly, those who ARE capable of fully utilizing, enjoying, and benefitting from the open/uncensored environment) of the benefits of open/integrity-assured communication... is a SERIOUS logical and tactical error (assuming the objective is to foster an inviting and positive forum).
That it is the right of the PTB to do whatever they want isn't in question.
What I am attempting to point out is that their policies have in fact achieved the opposite of what I'm certain the PURPOSE of the policies almost certainly is: to promote an inviting and positive environment.
Once I or others here have to, to any degree, try and take into account the infinite arbitrary ways in which any views we have may be offensive, and have to assume responsibility for those who may choose to respond irrationally to others stating their thoughts/opinions... such communication becomes a FUNDAMENTALLY different proposition.
Personally I won't deal with such an environment because I reject the whole paradigm as antithetical to integrity. It's my responsibility to speak my mind as I see it and to rationally respond to others doing the same. It's not my responsibility to pre-emptively self-censor myself in ANY way (in what can ONLY be an ultimately futile effort to placate the infinite and arbitrary irrational responses that can/might occur). To do so is undermine ALL communication, whether you realize or not. (And whether you do or don't is a crucial element/characteristic of enlightenment.)
A couple of posts especially illustrate how my points here just don't seem to have registered with some here: in his post #612 edwin says/asks
Masterofmanystrings, I am curious why you feel the need to lay down such a detailed screed to a place which you state is in your rear view mirror. If you are not here, why should we incorporate the standards you seek?
As I thought I made perfectly clear from my first post here, the whole point is WHY myself and others aren't here... and the point being that what I have to say -that myself and others don't come here as often or at all is because of PRECISELY the topic of this thread. The answer to your question has been discussed in considerable and explicit detail, to such an extent that it actually boggles my mind that you ask the question. But it does underscore my point in an explicit and extreme degree.
I also simply can't agree with the whole sympathizing for the moderator thing. First of all, to use a more honest word... censor... myself and others of similar mindset find a censor about as useful and desirable as a diaper-changer. Now if some feel they need such a service, and sypathize with how thankless the job is, I respect their right to that opinion, but for me it's beyond silly.
Moving on, I also found glockes' post #721 to illustrate the evasion of my points: He begins with:
The more I think about it, the more Im surprised this is even being discussed.
I mean seriously, this is first and foremost a MUSIC related forum, why on earth would someone want to bring their possibly controversial views here when there are so many better places to post those things where people go that actually WANT to read stuff like that.
... You're surprised this is being discussed? Wow. I guess it should presumably be assumed that an open/uncensored atmosphere wouldn't/should't even be a consideration. Remarkable. Interestingly -but for COMPLETELY opposite reasons- I agree with the implication that it shouldn't be discussed... though I don't find it surprising that it is being discussed.
Glocke askes why on earth would someone want to bring their possibly controversial views...
Take a good look at this, because it perfectly illustrates something profound which at least glocke apparently doesn't get at all. ALL of EVERYONES views are possibly contraversial... possibly contraversial is conceptual nonsense, absolutely and completely useless and not rationally integratable... unless one takes it absolutely literally, in which case it's still useless.
ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING can be possibly contraversial and/or potentially offensive. ANYTHING. And EVERYTHING.
This whole notion that just because something falls into a category of politics, religion sex or death or... philosophy... that it shouldn't be discussed and/or that limiting such topics protects us... is absurd.
Glocke says a few other points I want to respond to:
A quick look at some other music related forums reveals that no politcal/social commentary section exists for the ones I saw.
... Clearly the implication is that what 'other forums' have/allow on/in their sites is of some potential meaning or relevance. This implication is so arbitrary, defenseless, and (self-edited) that no other observation is appropriate.
terryc posted:
glocke..I totally agree, I am a member of a motorcycle forum, the only political items we discuss is government restrictions on motorcyclists.
Wow. If you look a little bit deeper... just a little... you may see that the idea of governmental restrictions on motorcycles can't be rationally separated from the underlying issue of what our rights are and what governments legitimate authority is and isn't. In fact, attempting to discuss the application of principles in such a forum where government restrictions on motorcyles may be discussed, but the underlying and related issues may not be discussed leads to an epistemologically haphazard environement which acts to undermine its own goals as much as promote them. If it isn't self-evident how absurd this notion is... you're missing a pretty significant logical point with a universe of implications.
Those of you that view this as why are we even considering whether or not to allow open/uncensored/offensive speech to occur here are fooling yourselves... because (A) you AREN'T ELIMINATING (and CAN'T eliminate) offensive communication... you're just artificially limiting to and catering to some arbitrary standard (even if it's ultimate the will of the PTB), and (B) what you ARE doing is promoting an environment that's the reverse of what you seem to want.
The censorship policies of this forum have actively discouraged and chased away at least several members, and from what I can gather, a lot.
Most will not take the time to post as I have -although a double-digit number of people have sent me emails such as the one I posted above expressing agreement with my sentiments.
You have chased us away with your policies. Those of you that need mommy-censor and daddy censor and going crying to mommy and daddy when you see things that offend you rather than exercising the adult skills that you could acquire and exercise if you chose to do so. Instead, you seek an environment that's a reversion to preschool and which forfeits the crucial essence and consequence riches of the uncensored/adult environment.
I'm out of here, gang, and I won't be back. Not unless things change big time, and become a fundamentally and radically different place from how it is now -which I don't see happening.
You know, this is going to sound really harsh, but it's really not a cheap shot. It's just the best way I can think of to express an impression. There's 2 houses I've gone to in my lifetime where the residents had cats that weren't fixed... male I think... where, as soon as you walk in the house, the odor of catpiss in the furniture, everywhere is so overpowering it's allmost impossible to stay in the house. I remember these times clearly, and being stunned that the residents weren't embarrassed to tears (and their homes were otherwise actually orderly) over how atrocious their homes were. But indeed, they actually simply didn't realize it. They were used to the smell, and I'm sure they likely focused on the love and good things they did have in their homes. I never went back to either of them after the first time.
And that's actually kind of how it is here. The dogma and restrictiveness of the environment here has a similar quality.
I do wish you all the best -though I'll frankly add that I also do both miss (most of) you, but also am still angry at those who led to my not wanting to come around, and at their mentality and the harm it causes.
Take care, all.
PS I was planning to delete my member info but will leave it up for a while so others can email me.
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(yawn)
is my bass done yet?
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Hmm.if anyone has noticed I have kept my posts to things Alembic and technical.
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Mark,
I suspect your comments were taken into account - with all the others - including those that disagreed with you. Perhaps, by themselves, your arguments just weren't persuasive.
I support free speech and it's many benefits, however this is not a free speech zone. Never has been to the extent that you and your supporters believe it should be. This site was not created with that intent in mind and as I see it, it shouldn't be coerced into becoming one. The site is an extension of a business. And as such, developing standards for this forum is well within Alembic's purview and frankly it would be irresponsible of Alembic to not have guidelines in place. Alembic does not need my/yours/our input, or agreement on any policy it decides best reflects their intent, community, sense of propriety. Instead, it is I that must agree to abide by their judgment in order to participate. I don't think it's unreasonable and I'm okay with that.
If Alembic were to start clamping down on, or eliminating posts that detracted from their craftsmanship, products, business practices, etc, then you could make that case that censorship was in effect. I don't see that. In fact I've read several posts over the years where people have complained, sometimes bitterly, about Alembic. Yet, the posts remained on line.
Regarding the rendered decision - I'm bothered that it wasn't really a decision. More of a continuance. But hey, it's not my house, I don't get to make the rules.
Simply put, being here is a privilege not a right.
respectfully,
Mike
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Hey guys, anyone notice how we have expressed many different and conflicting opinions above ... and yet nobody called anyone names, disparaged anyone, or stepped over the line? We did that before and I see no reason why we can't keep on self-policing. We really are just a bunch of intelligent, respectful musically inclined people with a varied spectrum of interests. I'd hate to see big brother looking over our shoulders giving thumbs up or thumbs down to each post. We have conversations here, and conversations naturally veer off in different directions as they proceed. Not everyone is going to find everything interesting. I don't wait for the motorcycle posts with baited breath, but they don't bother me either, and I certainly wouldn't want one of the mods deleting them just because they aren't about Alembic. Let's just all chill out and enjoy our little corner of cyberspace.
Bill, tgo
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I sort of agree with Mike here. Dave wrote a lengthy post that really doesn't say much, and doesn't really set down any well-defined policy. I find it troubling in that both sides of this question can view it as a loss.
For those who wanted complete freedom to discuss any topic, that hasn't happened. For those who want a club free of political, religious, or other delicate subjects unrelated to Alembic and music, that restriction seems to have been relaxed.
As best I can tell, the outcome is that topics will be controlled at the arbitrary whim of the moderators. The moderators just promise to be kinder and gentler to people who are straddling lines at the expense of those who would rather not see the lines approached. And this is a good thing?
As far as no one crossing any lines in this thread, I disagree. I think there are a few posts that, although polite in selection of words, amount to personal attacks. Even so, it's not like we're actually discussing one of the taboo topics in this thread.
What I suspect we will see going forward is the occasional tangential hot-button discussion that appears polite, but still offends people. Those people may be polite and restrained enough to refrain from posting or escalating, but it won't make them any less uncomfortable at having to see it discussed here. I fear that attempting to appease everyone will satisfy very few in the end.
-bob
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Masterofmany, cya. If you dont like how things are run here, and cant play by the rules than dont play the game. Im not sure why one would feel compelled to leave because they dont like the way a forum that that they neither, host, manage or pay for is run, but based on your previous post this forum may not be the place for you.
Its not like this is a club that we joined where we pay dues, have the right to vote for board members, or vote on new projects, etc.
Personally, Im grateful that this forum exists, as should others that are critical of how it is managed. It takes time, effort and money to provide a website such as this, and I think everyone who is being critical needs to stop and think about that.
Glocke askes why on earth would someone want to bring their possibly controversial views...
Take a good look at this, because it perfectly illustrates something profound which at least glocke apparently doesn't get at all. ALL of EVERYONES views are possibly contraversial... possibly contraversial is conceptual nonsense, absolutely and completely useless and not rationally integratable... unless one takes it absolutely literally, in which case it's still useless.
ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING can be possibly contraversial and/or potentially offensive. ANYTHING. And EVERYTHING.
ummmm....not so, and to be honest I really, really think you are thinking way too hard about this.
A perfectly good example of something that some people (including myself) may find offensive is what occurred after the last election. There were several posts made after the election results were official celebrating the election of one candidate, while taking cheap shots at the previous president. That type of post is just an invitation for things to get ugly. I think THAT is the type of thing, along with personal insults that those in favor of what you call censorship have in mind.
(Message edited by glocke on May 14, 2010)
(Message edited by glocke on May 14, 2010)
multiple edits to correct typos!!!
(Message edited by glocke on May 14, 2010)
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double post. My bad.
(Message edited by edwin on May 14, 2010)
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Mark, despite your seeming all powerful strength of observation, it is you that failed to comprehend my question. I wasn't asking why you left. You made that abundantly clear. What you didn't do was answer my question. Now that you are gone, why should we care what you think? Or, why should you care whether we care what you think? What do you expect will happen as a result of your highly condescending posts? Do you expect everyone to say Oh, what a superior person! He really knows what reality is for everyone and so with his immensely insightful criticism of us, we should really change to suit his ways, even though he won't be around to enjoy it!?
Despite your overweening confidence in your ability to make judgments about the appropriateness of topics and posts here, I'd like to point out that it's not always so cut and dry. There are topics here that stir up emotions of which nothing good can come with regards to Alembic and their instruments. A case in point is the Kent State post. A board member asked us to drop it (not a moderator) and at first I thought it was a silly thing to do, but after pondering it and discussing it with the person who requested it, I came to the conclusion that discretion is sometimes the better part of valor. Some people will get insulted by what they perceive as the glorification of anti-Americanism and the other side will be upset about what they perceive as the rise of the police state. Both sides are populated with really good, honest, caring people (and some great players!) and in the internet, it's easy to have things get to the point where people would say things that serve no purpose but to hurt. No one is going to be convinced of the rightness of the other political side on this board, and even if they do, what does that have to do with Alembic instruments?
Mark, as far as I can tell, you got censored, it pissed you off and now you want to assert your alpha maleness by taking shots at us and then declaring that you are leaving so that you are immune to whatever response you might get. Maybe you are upset because you weren't asked to be a moderator. The question remains, though, what the heck do you want from a group of people that you have so roundly rejected? I think it's pretty cowardly to hit and run like this. That's some pretty weak sauce. It would be nice to have a conversation about this, but the way you are dealing with it pretty much precludes it. You talk a good game about adult behavior, but an adult moderates his own behavior and words in order to be effective instead of creating opponents and calling them names so he can feel better about himself. A real adult persuades someone of their position in such a way that makes them feel good about getting there. You create a lot more heat than light. So, do what you have to do, just don't dash in here, piss on us, tell us it's raining and split.
I apologize to the rest of you, but I really don't like being insulted personally and collectively.
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Edwin, couldn't agree with you more, very well said.
BTW: I'm looking forward to seeing your Series I shortscale finished.
Excellent choice. I love mine!
Wilfred
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The elephant is in the room...
I left the club because my message was immediately deleted after responding to the n word used on a thread, and yet that word remained for weeks before it was removed.
While people were enjoying a good laugh at the Blazing Saddles thread, I was in my chair, asking myself: What the hell does this have anything to do with Alembic basses?
So sorry, it didn't take the brilliance of a Mel Brooks movie, for become enlighten about the sickness of racism (I wish it would had only took this movie). However, sadly, I have first hand experience in every aspect of my childhood and professional life of this evil. I am sure, if I were to tell you my stories, some of you would probably be laughing as well.
Peace and Love,
Hal-
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Hal...
asking myself: What the hell does this have anything to do with Alembic basses?
The subtitle of the miscellaneous section states..
Free for all area - talk amongst yourselves
so topics posted here don't need to have anything to do with Alembic basses.
The poster of that comment has made an unreserved apology for any offence he may unintentionally have caused and I'm sure you are man enough to accept such an apology in the spirit it was made.
Graeme.
p.s. as an englishman living in Central Scotland, I also come in for the occasional spate of racial abuse and I don't suppose I'm the only one so I very much doubt if anyone on this forum would laugh at any of your stories.
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With all due respect Hal, I think you created more than a few threads that had absolutely nothing to do with Alembic. I'm not complaining, and I'm not saying that particular quote was in good taste (as has been admitted by the author), but I think it would have been better to stay and make clear how that particular quote made you feel, rather than leave and let silence rule.
By the way, I'm still hoping for some clips of the Toma hawk!
(Message edited by hydrargyrum on May 14, 2010)
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Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks ! as the President said _____
Why can't we all just get along ?________________
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Hi Hal !
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I didn't post my message to get into any debates. I am done with these issues, and I put all this stuff behind me. Life is too short enough, but I believe if this site is to become better, censorship is evil.
So in fear of my words being stripped from readings, I'll go back to my silence world.
Hi Wolf!
PS... That was Rodney King who originally made the quote: ... can't we all, just get alone?
But if it takes more bang from Jack Nicholson in a fictional movie before the phase get valid, then go with movie man Jack.
Peace and Love,
Hal-
(Message edited by toma_hawk01 on May 14, 2010)
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For what it's worth, I'm not interested in debating either. I would just prefer people try to work out their problems, rather than leave. I would prefer a forum where everyone feels welcome.
/I'm serious about those sound clips, by the way.
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Which one is it, Hal? Censorship is evil? In that case the N word is ok. Or, Censorship is good, in that case the N word and anything the moderators think is too much for the site, goes. I don't wish you to be silent, but to add your color to conversations in a balanced viewpoint.
I have slept on the bus for over a week, and any misunderstanding is not intentional. I also hope this is not taken as an attack. As it is not ment as one.
Nick
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Good point, Nick.
I believe Censorship is evil.
If someone says something derogatory, and or repugnant, I believe there's enough wisdom here to correct it by the citizens, and the moderators. Threads are self correcting in most cases.
I don't believe anyone dealt with more criticism than my hendixclarke/Toma_Hawk threads.
I got hammered, as a new kid and yet, I didn't cry censorship.
In the end, I have the baddest bass Alembic ever made!
I owe the Wickershams a huge level of respect for making my dreams come true, and beyond the bass, I can honestly say, I love the Wickersham family from the bottom of my heart.
As for the members here, I deal with you on a one by one bases.
Peace and Love,
Hal-
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The more time y'all spend dickin' around on this thread, the less time Dave, Adrian, and Keith have to jam....
In order for me to express my political views to members of this forum w/out explicitly posting them, I did you all a favor and signed you up for the Limbaugh Letter!!!!
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Good one Mike!
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I think I can summarize my views on politico-religious discussion on the Alembic Club as a reductio ad absurdium:
Your views are dumb and wrong.
When we talk about politics or religion on this forum, it inevitably goes there, or at least tries to.
I do not see how that is productive or beneficial.
As long as we're airing dirty laundry: I don't come here much anymore, precisely because of the lunatick behavior of two people who actually commented in this thread. 'nuff said.
Bradley
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hey.. if we're adding to the forum, why don't we just add a sports section? and you might as well throw in a place to talk about movies.. you know, the latest releases. and hey, we all love alembics, but can we get a fender section? that'd be nice. hell, might as well have separate sections for beer, pizza, and motorcycles.
you know, it's the weirdest thing.. when i see a thread that i don't agree with/have no interest in, i just don't read it. i know! crazy! must be something wrong with me.
oh, and is my bass done yet?
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Yeah, pizza!
I'm for keeping this 100% Alembic, that's what this board stands for to me.
There are some good examples mentioned above why it should (imho) be that way, there's no need for possible negative vibes here that has nothing to do with Alembic.
In the misc. section there's place for some non Alembic related topics, the guidelines gave a clear and (to me) logical/acceptable set of rules to keep things civil here.
Nothing wrong with that, imho it should stay that way.
Now I'll have to think about my next order from Alembic, a custom Pizza :-)
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An Alembic pizza!!! I bet that would be good.
Homemade crust, sauce from Heirloom Tomatoes (you could choose the variety of course), Caciocavallo Podolico Cheese, Black P?rigord Truffle, Wagyu Sausage.... Uuuummmmmmm Gooooood.
(Message edited by mike1762 on May 16, 2010)
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Make mine an enormous seven layer hippie sandwich...
and nobody is allowed to talk with their mouths full!
Wilfred
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Uh, Mushrooms in mine Hippie Sandwich, please... ha ha ha