Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: flaxattack on June 05, 2009, 08:36:06 AM
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i dont know if anyone caught this on TV about a week ago. But one has to wonder when the govt will put their foot down. First lead in toys and now this. Basically these homes will need to be torn down.
http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=20239533>1=35000 (http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=20239533>1=35000)
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It would make a strange and dark thriller if we had a movie a about a communist dictatorship that sold low quality commodities to a democratic country resulting in job losses, health issues, and deaths.
The list of infractions from Chinese companies is very long:
Watered down milk sold to the World Health Organization and aid agencies
Milk poisoned with melamine
Dog food tainted with melamine
Water bottles tainted with toxic residual chemicals
I will never buy a bass made anywhere but the USA
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I'm glad to see this awareness. The situation is very bad.
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Why not buy if built in Mexico, the salsa and chips are fine! LoL
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Just don't eat the cilantro...
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This really hits close to home. When I was rebuilding my house after Katrina I refused a delivery of Chinese sheetrock to my house. It just looked of inferior quality with cracking around the edges. I sent it all back and insisted on better quality matierials. They sent sheetrock made in Atlanta, Ga. I am sooooo glad I refused that 1st delivery.
Some of my neighbors are not so fortunate. They are having to re-gut their homes because of this!
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Yikes! USA baby! All the way! Just like my Alembic!
Superior everything!
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How about the movie where the democracy lived beyond its means and was reliant on the communist dictatorship to fund its debts?
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This does really hit close to home, yet it still feels like a bad topic for the Alembic club. I'm sure there are plenty of other places to vent about this. As a positive, there may be an opportunity here to make a difference by contacting your political representatives to let them know how you feel. Maybe something can be done to make this right.
Beyond that, here's my vote that this is a topic for another place.
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We live in the world, no?
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bob
take yur vote and stuff it... lol
whats the deal?
informing the masses is a bad thing?
i bet if you just redid YOUR house you'd be scratching the paint looking to see who made the boards right?
these home owners are trying to get their lenders to eat the house as it is literally a toxic waste
if you dont like the thread- dont post on it....
ok
its the same as when someone dies and theres a post about it...
the alembic club is not an obituary column....
nuff said......
100,000 homes at lets say 250k as an average
is a lot of lost money... for nothing more than greed.
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lol!
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Strontium..heavy metal element so toxic in it salts, carbonates and sulphides(UK spelling)
Usually all sulphides are toxic...very bad indeed
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But it taste like chicken.
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The relevance that I see in this topic is that a person that values an Alembic product values quality and therefore would be even more so offended by this constant flow of faulty merchandise that we have been getting from China. I hope that the manufacturers of this sheetrock are held accountable
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I seem to remember that once Japanese and Korean merchandise was regarded as inferior. But now there are some very fine basses coming out of both countries. We are waiting for our first shipment of KSD basses from China. If they are anything like the ones I saw at NAMM the quality will be great.
I am not familiar with the building products issue - but won't that be dealt with by US product liability laws?
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If I can remember correctly, the head of food safety was executed after the melamine scandal. I don't think china taking responsibility will be a problem. This must have been an impurity in the gypsum they were mining. I can't imagine someone going to the trouble to procure this relatively rare mineral so that they might poison some strangers across an ocean. Let's just hope they didn't already know, and continue selling the stuff.
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I don't see the need to censor the thread, but the title of the thread could easily be construed as inflammatory, defamatory, and over-stated. If there are any Chinese Alembic players, It's my guess that the title of this thread is disrespectful to them. Also, I have been cautioned to stay away from political statements on this forum... are we splitting hairs here?
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Everybody Wang Chung tonight!
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Mmmm...actually China really does suck. Here's a lovely piece on animal abuse in Chinese zoos:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506153/Animals-torn-pieces-lions-baying-crowds-spectator-sport-China-DOESNT-want-see.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506153/Animals-torn-pieces-lions-baying-crowds-spectator-sport-China-DOESNT-want-see.html)
Warning: not for the sensitive
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And, you know, sorry to anyone who's offended, but people tell me America sucks all the time.
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Uh, yeah...America is the worst country in the world...except for all the others.
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wasn't that the famous Winston Churchill, explaining democracy ?
...and another one: NO SPORTS !
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The Alembic club is a world wide community. It seems to me that the members of this community should treat each other with respect. As far as I can recall, no member of this community has made a post to this forum stating that America sucks. The title of this thread can reasonably be seen to be inflammatory, as the word Chinese can refer to a people, many of whom do not live in, or are not citizens of, or do not support the policies of the government of the Peoples Republic of China. Jeff, who started this thread, appears to be writing in reference to that particular government entity, and not in reference to Chinese or people of Chinese descent. I don't think Jeff meant to slight any members of our community. It does seem to me that if you think you need to attach a warning to your post stating that your post is not for the sensitive, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting such comments here, since the moderator here is very sensitive about how members of this community treat each other.
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I myself have no doubt said America sucks many hundreds, if not thousands, of times. My point was that I'm pretty used to hearing that, and anyone who lives in ANY country has either heard it or said it. Personally, I think people have the right not only to say that about their own country, but about any other! Particularly when the suckage is especially grievous.
In other words I hope we can be good enough friends in this global community that we could occasionally tell each other our respective countries suck.
(Message edited by hb3 on June 10, 2009)
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Essentially we all live in glass houses - think really hard before you throw a stone. It may be thrown back. . .
An evil government does not makes a countries people evil.
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I don't think that this stuff is only in America. I think China distributes materials like this to itself on a regular basis.
It does suck. That's why we need to have trade agreements that address toxicity in materials and worker safety, etc as well as just agreements that make mega profits for trans nationals.
Edwin
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Well, most of computer stuff is built in Taiwan or China, maybe somethings are assembled in the US but the really important components are made in Taiwan or China. Check where the components are made when you dissamble any electronic device. lol
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Cilantro is fine, don?t eat jalape?os lol
The acoustic guitars made in Paracho (that is in Michoacan Mexico) are some of the best in the world.
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Michoacan used to produce something else in the old days that was among the finest to be had. And I
like jalapenos!
Bill, tgo
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oh yes,,, I didn't recognize the spelling
Thanks for jogging the memory Bill ~
Mee-cho-a-kahn - sweet indeed :-)
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This is delicate matter but... yes, I agree. Much of the stuff made is China is below any quality standards and some of it is dangerous. That's one of the reasons why I steer clear of Chinese products whenever I have the choice (let me repeat that - whenever I have the choice; more often than not, especially in case of simple electronic devices, I don't, as China seems to have monopolyzed the morket in several areas of industry). The other reason is the way Chinese workers are treated. Such thing as labour law does not exist there. People are paid starvation wages for working 12+ hours a day in dangerous conditions (safety devices are often removed from the machines in factories as they slow down the production process). Personally, I think it's one of the reasons of poor quality of Chinese goods.
Funkyjazzyjunky -
I will never buy a bass made anywhere but the USA
Well, there are many great instruments made all around the world: Status and Wal basses made in the UK, Ritter and Schack from Germany, Vigier from France, there are also several great luthiers in Poland (I had a Nexus bass made by Jacek Kobylski - it was a great instrument, I recorded 3 albums with it and never heard a word of complaint from recording engineers, it was also amazingly comfortable to play), even such popular brands from Japan like Yamaha or Ibanez released series of truly great instruments (older Yamaha BB, Ibanez Musician and Roadster/Roadstar... I had one of the latter, I liked it a lot, it was a great yet unexpensive bass)... So - while we all know that the USA is the home of the greatest number of premium quality instrument builders - you shouldn't count out basses that are made abroad ;-) But yes, I won't buy a bass or an amp made in China - for reasons I've stated above.
Does it make any sense?...
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I stopped by two weeks ago to see a good friend of mine who has won the guitar fingerpicking championship in the USA a couple of years ago. He was recording his next CD with a high end Eastwood guitar made in China using two mics made in china on a laptop made who knows where. He told me it was one of the best sounding guitars he has played.
Some of the parts in my series one are not USA made either, for what it's worth.
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I stopped by two weeks ago to see a good friend of mine who has won the guitar fingerpicking championship in the USA a couple of years ago. He was recording his next CD with a high end Eastwood guitar made in China using two mics made in china on a laptop made who knows where. He told me it was one of the best sounding guitars he has played.
Some of the parts in my series one are not USA made either, for what it's worth.
And don't get me started on the tubes in my amps (and yours) and where they come from. Not the USA though, unless they are old ones.
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TUBES ! The Chinese 6L6 type output tube has a soft vacuum envelope resulting in a mushy high end.
The Russian 6L6 type output tube has a harder vacuum envelope resulting in a harder more defined high end.
If you can find them look for new old stock RCA red label! _____
and then you get made in the USA !
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Made in America = jobs in America
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David - that Eastwood guitar (and the mics and so on) might have sounded great but how long will it last?
I won't mention moral issues again - I've already had my say.
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Actually, it's a Eastman, not an Eastwood (my mistake). Still made in China. Well, my friend has Larivee (sp) and Breedlove and several other high end guitars and won another nice one at the fingerpicking competition a couple of years ago. I am going to assume that if they can make them sound great that they also build them to a high standard that will last. I think the two go hand in hand. It was also a 3 - 4K price instrument in US dollars. I played it and it looked built to as high a standard as any I have seen.
I remember this whole discussion about guitars that were made in Japan in the 70's and how they could not be any good. Then George Benson started playing one. My 70's Ibanez Howard Roberts still plays and looks great and I would favorably compare it to most Gibsons I have owned or played.
I just think we live in a global market these days. I also think the high end import guitars may have forced American guitar companys to re-think what they are building and decide to do a better job. I recently bought an Ibanez JEM that I would say is the most accurately built guitar I have ever owned, and I own a lot of guitars.
Bye,
Dave
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ok so no offense to anyone. yeah sure
BUT
some of you people are just plain pussies....
if someone- anyone- takes offense to the thread title- then YOU may have an issue and as i said earlier
dont like the thread? then dont post in it.
to insinuate or even hypothesize that i was referring to the chinese as a race is just plain in simple langauge- totally f---d up
as much as i tend to disagree with dave- he got it
why couldnt you?
the theory that you cant offend anyone even in jest anymore makes me sick to my stomach- we've turned into a bunch of pansies who would rather roll over and die then speak the truth.
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Well, when saying the The Chinese you are using Chinese as noun which would refer to the people of that nation. To say Chinese industry regulation would be to use it as a adjective describing industry regulation. So it doesn't require insinuation or hypothesis to see that, whether by accident or on purpose, you are referring to a group of an entire group of people from that nation.
I am not commenting on your intention, only that is reasonable (and grammatically correct) for your title to be misunderstood.
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Jeff - I for one definitely got your point and I agree. I often get told off on my favourite Polish bassists message board for slacking Chinese stuff...
Really. Apart from anything else (appaling quality, poor reliability/durability etc) by buying Chinese, you reinforce their regime. Simple as.
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Ok, but it is diffcult to NOT buy chinese, at this exact moment, I am looking at my Dell monitor made in china, writing on my Dell keyboard made in china, moving the cursor with my Microsoft mouse made in china, next to my Presidian Radio Shack Big Button telephone made in china, also my Apple Ipod is made in china. LOL It is funny to think that in this globalized world a socialist regime is helping capitalist businessmen to cut costs down.
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Apparently, I am also demonstrating my need to prouf read.
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I am sure they will sell us the guitar strings we hang ourselves on!!! However, I think the US is well on it's way to socialism at the moment.
At least we also make some of the world's best beer.
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Posting Guidelines (http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=283); if you haven't read them, please do.
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Anyone can offend anyone all they want. Write an editorial for your local newspaper or go log on to your favorite website for political discussion. Set yourself up a website and write a blog. Just take it someplace other than here.
If you had your own business website and someone started making political statements or discussing controversial topics that might offend a percentage of your customers on your site, would you be happy about it? If you're in a business that sells only a few hundred units per year, it hurts to lose even one or two customers, especially for reasons that aren't related to your business.
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to bob and phylo
---- OFF
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My, how collegial...
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I don't get it. What's the big deal about being firetrucked by the Chinese?
As I learned in grade school:
Q - What word starts with F and ends with uck?
A - firetruck!!!!
Bill, tgo
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that wasnt grade school bill
it was soupy sales@!
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White Fang & Black Tooth
Philo Kvetch
Hey, Do the Mouse
We're getting old(er)!
Bill, tgo
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It is funny that a Communist country is teaching us all about hardcore capitalism...whatever happened to 'you get what you paid for'? seems we've all bought into the lie of the best service, best products at the lowest price...well, something's gotta give!
When I was in the bicycle industry, companies here found that the only way to get consistent quality was to have a QC agent THERE (Korea,Taiwan,etc...) then you got what you wanted; otherwise things got slack...face it, most manufacturers anywhwere would do the same if they were so separated from the final consumer and insulated from any retribution...
Sadly we are all complicit in this to some degree, untill we shop local and small-store and accept that quality products and service has a cost...
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Sadly we are all complicit in this to some degree, untill we shop local and small-store and accept that quality products and service has a cost...
Agreed - sadder still is that a certain bass player publication has had two reviews in the last two issues that merrily point out how wonderful it is that manufacturer XXX is having a less exspensive version of their product made in China!
I am flabbergasted! I am dissappointed.
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Have you ever seen an instrument magazine give a bad review to anything? I don't read bass magazines, but I do check out a few guitar magazines. They always like everything they review. A bad guitar, amp, or pedal has never been manufactured ... if you believe the magazines!
Bill, tgo
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Yes - that's why I prefer the approach of hifi and car magazines that do group tests - with a conclusion that ranks each product against its competitors. This is much more useful for a consumer wondering which product should I buy. The problem with some US music magazines that do shootouts is they don't do a comparative ranking.
I have recently started doing group tests of bass related products for Australian Guitar magazine. The last test was 24 distortion pedals! (Which we had to split over two editions.)
We have a number of judges that give each product a score out of ten for a number of criteria. These are then averaged across judges and the full table published along with the article.
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In the motorcycle world, there is a mag (Motorcycle Consumer News) that has no advertising, and so reviews of bikes and other products are not affected by pressure to slant the reviews toward the positive side. The reviewers are free to TELL THE TRUTH about the products... It is very refreshing, and it is the only bike mag to which I subscribe.
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That is a good magazine Ben. I also read Ride Texas, I find some great roads to ride in that magazine, but I don't read any product reviews. I stick to MCN for that.
OO
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FWIW, I'm in NZ and I worked in China on and off for two years. Generally enjoyed it there and its given me a lifetime of adventures and memories.
All I'm gonna say is the country definitely has issues with people trying to pull a fast one but lets not forget the USA has its own issues. Enron, anyone? Madoff? Sub prime mortgages?
So I'm going to put that to one side and lets just take up the issue of craftsmanship. China is capable of putting out some exquisite craftsmanship that is breathtaking beautiful in its sensitivity to materials and attention to detail.
http://www.chinaculture.org/library/att/att/20041123/xinsrc_1711012320458162173941.jpg (http://www.chinaculture.org/library/att/att/20041123/xinsrc_1711012320458162173941.jpg)
Unfortunately that's not where the market is for China so long as there's a bigger Yuan and a competitive advantage to be made from mass manufacturing, then thats where their main interest is going to lie. In fact some US companies DON'T begrudge the Chinese making a buck at all, which is great. All those US manufacturers (like Ampeg for example) importing Chinese components, assembling them in the US and call it US made. Gotta be good for both economies, right? Everyone makes a buck!
Having said that, even then the Chinese are capable of putting out some excellent mass manufactured workmanship if the Quality Control procedures are properly implemented. Warwick Rockbasses may not be made from the best materials but the workmanship, the accuracy of the neck joints and the machining is superb.
I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
Don't believe the hype people, I encourage you to get over to China sometime and experience it first hand.
(Message edited by Crazykiwi on July 09, 2009)
(Message edited by Crazykiwi on July 09, 2009)
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Why blame the Chinese for wanting to make some money, just as (un)ethically as we have in the last century? Why blame them for old economy companies (that's us again) using their workers, products and materials to save money / make bigger profits? Why blame them for the general consumer just wanting cheap, cheaper, cheapest?
And another thing: xenophobia / misplaced nationalism doesn't belong in a global community.
Wilfred
(Message edited by the_mule on July 10, 2009)
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misplaced nationalism doesn't belong in a global community.
Good point, Wilfred. It has always been my contention that the day of nations and nationalism is coming to an end. The arbitrary lines drawn on the globe which divide the people of earth are going to be questioned as to their usefulness and validity as the issues of global economy and ecology come to the fore.
Was it Wavy Gravy who said, My planet, right or wrong, and to hell with the marines of Uranus!? Or something like that...
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Actually, a return to nationalism is one of the few things that could save us -- I've come to think that the very ideal of a global community is misguided and in fact genocidal in that it means the eradication of both historic nations and peoples. So smoke some a that, Wavy Gravy!
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Moreover, the very notion of a universalist global ideal is, truly ironically, the creation of the European Enlightenment, which most cultures on the planet did not experience. That is, in a very weird way, globalism is the creation of a particular nationalism.
(Message edited by hb3 on July 10, 2009)
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In fact I was referring to THIS global community, the Alembic Club. International membership is welcomed and valued here, so I'll say it again: xenophobia / misplaced nationalism doesn't belong here.
Wilfred
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And for the bigger picture: THAT global community isn't an ideal of years past, but a modern reality. The majority of companies in our own economies buy and sell worldwide, outsourcing labour, importing and using foreign materials and products. Our own companies invest big bucks in foreign economies. Why? To save and make more money themselves.
The questions in my earlier posts were overlooked, or maybe just too confrontational, but let me put it this way: isn't it hypocritical to blame the Chinese for doing what we have always done, for selling us the products we demand and in fact, for following the examples we've given them?
They might be leading the rat race at this moment, but rats we are all...
Wilfred
(Message edited by the_mule on July 11, 2009)
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Well, that's interesting that you were referring to this Alembic community as global, and I misunderstood.
IMHO, the source of an idea, and even the conditions under which it was formulated, may or may not have any bearing on the validity/lack thereof of it's application in any other arena.
I still think that nationalism is one way we Terrans have been divided and conquered.
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So you're saying you think nationalism is a bad thing...?
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It's a two-edged sword, and I think it's time to evolve beyond it.
From Webster's: excessive, narrow or jingoistic patriotism; chauvinism... the doctrine that national interest, security, etc. are more important than international considerations
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Evolve beyond it? Into what? A one world socialist utopian government...which always looks so enticing on paper and yet always plays out it's despotic theme in the name of the people? I don't know about you, but I don't care to be a vassal of the state.
The nationalism that you so easily disparage is also the nationalism that enusures your liberty to utter sentiments that could easily be construed as treasonous.
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Please avoid political discussions on this board. Invariably, things get said in political discussions that will be hurtful to others, whether they post a response of not.
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I will certainly temper my posts out of deference to Dave and to the guidelines of the board. But, I will not temper them out of fear that someone may construe them as treasonous.
There, got that off my chest. Moving on, now.
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Can we modify the title of this thread (or delete it altogether)? I cringe every time I see something even close to profanity on this forum (and in every day life I probably have just about the filthiest mouth of anyone you could meet. I bet I could make sailors blush). I like the refuge from the fighting you get on almost every other music forum.
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As stated in my profile:
I have more respect for the person who burns the flag and then wraps themself in the Constitution, than for the person who burns the Constitution and them wraps themself in the flag.
'nuff said.
Bill, tgo
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All this bickering makes me hungry. Anybody for some CHINESE food?
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Just had some! It was great! China Gourmet in North Boulder is indeed a hidden treasure and I was able this very evening to introduce a long time Boulder friend to it.
Edwin
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I've had chinese food twice in the last fortnight and both times I've had bad indigestion afterwards and haven't slept ;-(
Graeme
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Cool, Edwin. I am now living in Boulder, so I will have to check out the China Gourmet!
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We have a new Chinese/German restaurant that opened in town. You eat there and a 1/2 hour later you're hungry for power! (rim shot!)
Bill, tgo
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?
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Nice one Bill,
That definitely earned a snort of laughter from me.
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Nice derailment, guys!
I read a couple of articles recently(on paper, so I can't link them...)that basically argued that peak oil would likely put the boot to globalization, as transportation costs would become prohibitive and nullify the advantages of cheap labour, thus putting most things back to a 'locally grown, locally made' way of operating...
Interesting idea to chew on,no?
Tony
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(Message edited by davehouck on July 29, 2009)
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My stepdaughter is Chinese, adopted as a child at age 1. I do find this discussion somewhat hurtful.
R.
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(Message edited by the_mule on July 31, 2009)
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Wow amazing indeed the human ability to be insensitive to others, but hey thats humanity so cant' we all getta bong, take some pepto bismal and grow up?????? This is coming from a 34 year old adolesent/delinquint so take all with gain of salt eh?
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(Message edited by HB3 on July 31, 2009)
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Come on, join the trend!
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I would like to renew my call to delete this thread. My apologies if I have offended anyone with any of the content of my posts.
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Thomas (smokinbear) above writes: cant' we all getta bong.
Sounds like a good idea to me! hehehehe
Bill, tgo
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On Bill's upbeat note, and due to email I'm receiving about this thread, and due to the general tenor, and to the tendency to stray beyond the posting guidelines, let's bring this one to a close.