Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: white_cloud on August 17, 2008, 06:11:59 AM
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Heres one for discussion,
Are Alembic instruments too expensive? Honest opinions please..and no hissy fits
John.
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No. Considering how long it takes to build an instrument and the frequency of instruments produced, I don't think Alembic would be able to stay afloat in the market of fine instruments if their products were much less expensive.
What gets me the most, though, is how drastically Alembic instruments loose their value if ever they are to be sold as used.
(Message edited by robinc on August 17, 2008)
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Yawn.
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(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/54744.jpg)Considering back in 1980 i paid nearly $2,500 plus a fender Jazz bass an Ibanez artist series,and a Vintage Old Ovation hollowbody fretless Bass. (alot of money back then)for an old alembic (#12) which had been sitting on the wall at guitar center in SF for nearly a whole year, back then nobody wanted it because it was overpriced & Old..... & when i finally paid it off, the salesman told me to 'NEVER EVER' get rid of this bass!.... looking back?.......to this day i see exactly what he meant!
(Message edited by keavin on August 17, 2008)
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Keavin..thats the kind of intelligent opinion that this thread is all about!
Thankyou (David take note)
Im NOT saying Alembics ARE overpriced, I just want any members to share opinions on this subject!
John.
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I don't consider them too expensive. Compared to production line models I suppose they are BUT these aren't production line models. They are (IMHO) works of art; skillfully and lovingly hand made to a customers exact specifications (if wanted). For proof check out the build info for Alan's Spyder replica. From day 1 nothing has been left to 'Oh, that'll do'. For that type of quality and care you have to pay and I for one wouldn't mind...if I could afford it! They do lose value but that's the way of the world and if they didn't, many people wouldn't get a chance to own one of these great instruments!
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Given the man-hours and materials, sometimes I wonder how they stay profitable even with the prices as they are. I strongly suspect that the featured customs might might sometimes leave no profit margin for Alembic whatsoever.
Sure, there are cheaper and more efficient ways they could build these instruments to a set specification, but that wouldn't be custom now, would it!
John
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When i first considered an Alembic i thought of my brother who is an avid skeet shooter and shotgun collector. When he orders a custom gun the price isn't in the same realm as going to your local sporting goods store and buying one off the shelf and it's usually a strong year wait. Well worth it? he thinks so and they sure are very cool. So, i am a bass player and wanted the best because it's my hobby well worth it? I think so. And he says it's very cool.(At least we don't collect cars). Now that i have played an Alembic thats all i'll play and hopefully that will be a long time. So, cost spread out over time, minimal. John. Also, each Alembic is different and unique to the so, essentially every bass is one of a kind (why would anyone ever want to sell?)
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The question of whether something is overpriced is, IMHO relative and a very personal thing.
There are folks out there that will pay thousands for a pre-CBS or even 70s Fender. Lately the vintage market has been going crazy price-wise - the '73 Jazz I have now that I bought for $1350 6 years ago goes for about twice that these days. There are qualities these instruments have (or they believe they have) and to get them, some people will pay the price. Now, many of these instruments have serious quality control issues (you should see the neck pocket on my Jazz - a good 1/8 gap between the neck and the pocket!). Yet folks will pay to get them. Is it because they're rare and becoming rarer? Nostalgia (that's pretty much why I bought mine - I had one when I was younger)? Who knows. The bottom line is these instruments are worth the price to those who pay it.
Same goes with an Alembic. I don't think they're too expensive. To wit:
They are custom made - no two are alike.
The components are world class.
The workmanship, when compared to most mass produced instruments, is world class and second to none.
The attention to detail is unparalleled.
I won't go into tone or feel, or even playability. Those things, IMHO are also a very subjective and personal thing. We all know folks who wouldn't touch an Alembic, but love, say Warwicks (which I wouldn't play if it were the only instrument on a deserted island). To each his own.
One also needs to remember that Alembic is a small, family owned business, and for the most part has always been that way. They are not some mega corporation. Their shop/factory is in an industrial park off the 101 in California, and it is not an overly large place (though adequate for their needs from what I could see). They do not buy huge amounts of supplies (e.g., wood, hardware, etc.) like companies such as Fender, Gibson, etc. do, and as a result most likely do not get volume discounts on their products. They pay more, so it only makes sense that customers do as well. If they charged less, it would be suicide from a business perspective.
Their interaction with customers is personal. I know this because when I call or email, they know who I am, what instrument I'm having made, etc. I called Mica last week and she reminded me about the amber tint I was having done on my custom, for example.
Finally, without waxing philosophic, owning an Alembic is being part of a family. Alembics, when compared to other, more abundantly available marques are a relatively rare thing. Not everyone has one, and makes them a bit unique IMHO. It draws Alembic owners together, and I think that's a good thing. I have personally been to a get together, and it was a wonderful thing. I got to play great instruments and meet some very fine people.
So are they overpriced? For these reasons and many more, IMHO no. Besides, no instrument (or possession) is worth more than one will pay for it. IMHO, Alembics are worth any penny for the endless smiles they bring to my face every time I pick one up and play it.
Alan
(Message edited by ajdover on August 17, 2008)
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All Alembics that I can't afford are overpriced. All that I can afford are not overpriced. If I win the lottery, the overpriced ones will no longer be so! It's all in the perception. I will say this, in response to Alan's musings: I have a '61 Strat that I bought in '75 for $125. It's apparently worth a little more than that today. In fact, it is easily the most valuable instrument I own. It is a wonderful guitar, but, truthfully, pales in comparison to any of my Alembics. Certainly there is no logical reason why it is worth 10 times as much as my '76 Series I guitar. But Jimi and Eric didn't play Purple Haze and Layla on Alembics.
Bill, tgo
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compare the price of a good handcrafted upright bass with electric instruments in general and you understand that alembic is still pritty cheep. I know upright basses from 50$ to 250000$ (my former teacher owns an old italian bass for nearly 250000$).
Also if you think about how long you will play a good instrument. I have an old Series I since november last year, I did 2 recordings with and a few gigs and I know: as long as I can hold a bassguitar, I will play this girl.
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Well, everytime I look inside of my wallet I must say: they are too expensive... :-)
No, just kidding. Those pieces of art are worth every cent.
You can?t compare them to anything else.
Oliver (Spyderman)
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As long as there are enough players willing to pay for them, the answer is obviously no.
My ownership experience with them hasn't been as pleasant or trouble-free as some peoples', but it wouldn't stop me from buying a new one. It is unlikely, however, that I will ever buy a used one again without being able to play it first.
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Value is in the eye of the consumer. And the consumers' optic nerve is connected to his/her wallet.
IMO, justifying an Alembic by the number of hours put into it or the fact that it is a family owned small business or that they are often on a first name basis with their customers is kind of a red herring. They are indeed factors for some customers, but there are a number of small, high quality luthiers that can make similar claims. This could quickly disintegrate into an is Alembic better than Ritter / MTD / CallowHill / Jerzy Drozd / name your favorite exotic bass company argument.
It all boils down to as an individual, if you had the cash to buy the bass you want at the price Alembic asks, would you?. If your answer is YES, then for YOU Alembic basses are NOT too expensive. You may not be able to afford one, but you still consider it to be fairly priced for the value provided. For example, I think the new Corvette ZR1 is a bargain at twice the price, but I don't have $100K laying around, so I won't be getting one anytime soon.
If your answer is NO, then for YOU, Alembics ARE too expensive.
In my case, given enough available cash, I'd order another custom. But until some higher priority expenditures are managed, I'll be out of the market for awhile.
Peace,
James
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Although the craftsmanship does make an Alembic a work of art; ultimately, they are a tool for most of us. Are there cheaper tools out that would get the job done? Of course there are. I doubt anyone could listen to any of my songs and tell me which ones were recorded with an Alembic and which are my $300 MIM Fender Jazz. That being said, the tonal palette of an Alembic far exceeds any of my other basses. I could easily dispose of ALL my other basses and never miss them from a tone perspective. If you need to justify the purchase, you can easily convince yourself that you are effectively buying 3 or 4 basses in 1!!! Since I bought all of my Alembics used, there is definitely no buyers remorse.
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I agree with just about everything everyone has written so far, but I also have something to add from a slightly different angle. For me, tradition and history also adds value. I've wanted an Alembic since I first saw John Paul Jones playing one (or did I see John Entwistle first?) in the 70's. Then there are all the other Alembic players from back then like Tiran Porter, Greg Lake and of course Stanley Clarke. When you buy an Alembic, you buy into that history, and that's cool.
My next Alembic will probably be an SC standard, but I'd buy an S2 if I could. I'd drive a Ferrari if I could too.
One other thing I like about Alembic is that they'll make my bass exactly the way I want (within reason I'm sure), not all high-end bass makers will do that.
Mike
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You realize, Bill, that if you have a
'61 Strat that you paid only $125 or so for, we all hate you, right? ;-)
I paid $650 in 1996 for my autumnglo Rick 4001. Today it's worth twice that. Go figure!
Alan
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I realized long ago that there are some things I can go relatively cheap on and still be happy with my purchase. There are other things where that doesn't work for me.
Just an example to illustrate my point:
Let's say I spend $7300 for an Alembic that I will enjoy for 20 years. I could have given $1000 for a bass that I don't enjoy nearly as much. Each day of the 20 years, the Alembic costs me $1. The cheaper bass would cost me approximately $0.14 per day. Every day, I play the $1000 bass knowing that I could've had the best, but I settled for less than I wanted. Knowing that I saved $0.86 today doesn't make me feel any better about my purchase.
If some people are perfectly happy with less expensive instruments and can't stomach paying for Alembics, then Alembics are not for them. Obviously, there are a lot of people who feel otherwise.
There are some things in my life where I go the cheap route and am reasonably happy with what I buy. After all these years playing music, playing an instrument that I'm not happy with isn't worth it.
Rich
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richbass..that is the mentality I go by, a friend of mine wanted to buy a genuine National Resonator guitar but he said he couldn't justify the cost until I explained those exact words.
If he kept it forever and passed it onto his son or daughter it is value for money unlike cars which depreciate the moment they leave the showroom.
I have had my Alembic for 10 years now and although it was a bargain($1800 from Rudy's Music Stop in NY) it has paid for itself many time times over with all the gigs I have played using it plus the absolute of enjoyment of owning it.
Alembics are expensive but would you buy any other bass(except another Alembic) once you have one
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Its about personal taste for me. After hearing RTF Romantic Warrior, I was hooked by the sound and SC's technique. Acquiring them becomes habit mixed with a bit of obsession. I just ordered another custom and I always say OK I'm done. Then an idea, desire and musical need haunts me and I make the call. I get a lot of flak about my equipment from some guys and support from others but I keep playing what I want to play. I may be selling off some of the ones that were not made for me but that remains to be seen. All that being said, I can't afford a Series 1 or 2 at this stage of the game. But I hope to someday. The Alembic family have always worked with me in a way that no other company or service provider ever has. Personal, friendly, accommodating, trusting and caring don't completely describe the relationship. To me Alembics cost what they cost for a reason and I don't object to the price when I can have what I need and want. I always look at other makes but can't seem to justify buying some of them even when the price is about the same or lower than Alembic. It would seem there is a magic number for quality that I am in tune with when it comes to the Wickersham family. In closing, they are a lot cheaper than a wife and kids with pets. But thats a whole nuther argument.
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danno - I second your closing statement wholeheartdly!!!
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Really enjoyable discussion folks - some really great posts
I think I agree with just about all that has been said - any item is only ever worth the sum another is prepared to pay for it at the end of the day!
Plenty of members right here wouldnt pay for anything less than an Alembic!
John.
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From an economic price/demand viewpoint, obviously they are not overpriced, or Alembic would close it's doors. However, I am willing to say that Alembics are indeed expensive from the perspective of the average musician. One must differentiate between cost and value though. When one considers the value of these instruments (playability, dependability, beauty, and resale value), the cost seems more justified.
One thing I have never been able to quite rationalize though is the price schedule for some of the upgrades. For instance, upgrading to an Ebony neck laminate is quite expensive. However, I know of other boutique builders where this is available at no cost. This makes me inclined to believe that the reason for the upcharge is probably not due to materials costs or labor (but I have never made a guitar, so what do I know? ). I have to think that there are other forces at work in Alembic's business model which would explain these factors. This is of course, just speculation.
Ultimately, I think what really makes Alembic unique is that they personally make almost everything on their instruments. How many other boutique builders make their own hardware and pickups? I am guessing very few.
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No..not when you consider the time, effort, and thought that has gone into these, and the fact that each one is unique and a work of art. Plus, they are made in the good 'ol U.S.A.
Im just glad Im fortunate enough to be able to own two (I never thought Id be able to own one, much less two), and hopefully within two years maybe even my own personal custom.
Also, Alembic is one of the few companies I know where even their less expensive models exhibit the same craftsmanship as the more expensive models.
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You get what you pay for..
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If one considers the price Fender and Gibson charge for some custom shop bog standard instruments, one can only conclude Alembics are a real bargain.
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1. No, Alembics aren't expensive - they're handmade instruments custom built to our wishes, plus, every other bass player or guitarist in the land will be jealous of you even if they thnk you're playing a spector (it's happened to me) ;-)
2. Yes, Alembics are too expensive. I really want a 5 string series 2 dragonwing in Buckeye burl with a dragon inlay but there's no way I could justify spending another ?17000 on a musical instrument to senior management even if I had access to that sort of money. Going back to Danno's point, if I was single with no kids then the order would be with Susan right now ;-)
Graeme
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Alembics may not be easily affordable, but like a Rolex, a Ferrari, or a hand tailored suit; the best is costly.
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In that case, my wife must be the best.
Graeme ;-)
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Graeme - perhaps you could trade one of your kids against the Dragonwing? just a thought!
John.
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Now there's a thought.........
By the way John, are you interested in coming to manchester with me for Bass day UK. It's on Sunday 9th November - details here (http://www.bassday.co.uk).
I'll be driving down with Mike Pisanek - I'm also trying to get George to come along. We could collect you from somewhere near Glasgow if you're interested.
Graeme
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There were times when my children were younger that the return of indentured servitude didn't look all that bad. I never thought about parlaying that into a new Alembic. Too bad mine are grown and out of the house (though one is threatening to return).
Keith
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Alembics are an incredibly built bass, a work of art, an entre to a cool forum like this, etc. But for me, all I need to remind my wife is that I have played less than two rounds of golf in the last 20 years. She knows what that could have cost and my GAS is never subject of a big argument. Now, if I could only convince her that she wants me to buy a motorcycle, too...
Bill (the other one)
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When people at shows ask how much the Dragonfly cost, I tell them less than my car has depreciated since I bought it, and that's the truth by a fair margin. It's less than I would pay to trade my car (a 2002 Mercury Gran Marquis) for a new Honda Civic. Nobody would bat an eye over the cost of doing that. I've put 150,000 miles on that car in the 6 years I've owned it, and I expect to get another 150k at least out of it. Cop cars and taxis use the same platform because they run forever. Last time I was in a taxi, I asked the driver how his Crown Vic was holding up. In 325,000 miles, excluding normal maintenance, of course, he had to replace the water pump.
I don't mind driving an old but reliable vehicle. That's why I bought it (Salesman thought I was a nut...I was 32 and the average Gran Marquis purchaser is around 60, but I wanted something that would last).
I want to play an Alembic. So I do.
Really, people will spend that much money on SOMETHING. It's just a matter of deciding on what. Cable or satellite TV could run you a grand a year easily. Same for cigarettes. It's all in how you arrange your priorities.
Not too expensive at all.
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It's all about priorities.
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CRGASTON HAS WRITTEN: I WANT TO PLAY AN ALEMBIC. SO I DO. I WRITE: I WANT TO PLAY AN ALEMBIC. BUT I JUST CANNOT BUY ONE....ALEMBIC FANS ARE NOTALL RICHMEN......
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Why are Alembics expensive? For the same reason divorce is so expensive.
It's worth it! hehehehe
Bill, tgo
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Christophe,
Your time will come and you will own an Alembic dont worry
John.
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Christophe, I'm no rich man either. It took me 15 years to get the Alembic. Here in the states, 15 years of paying for cable television will cost more than most Alembics. Alembic or TV? For me an easy choice...no TV!
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If you have any habit that cost a daily or weekly premium, try dropping it. Every little sacrifice helps. I put down money every pay period when I was making $4.25 an hour for over a year to get my first Spoiler in 83. $900 no case 25 years ago.
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The answer more expensive than it should be. But everything else is more expensive than it should be these days. Ask me about the new roof I have to get because of Gustav.
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Charles
well said.
It took me 25 years to buy Alembic!
Also for me an easy choice...no other bass.
(Incidentally, your bass seen on your profile is fantastic)
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Fortunately for me, I bought mine back in '82 and '86. I was single, just moved out on my own in '84, and worked a lot of overtime! After getting married, a house, a son, everything else...I could never afford one now, but music has always been a hobby, not a means of support.
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http://daydreamdeliveryservice.com/_wsn/page3.html
I can understand everything pricewise right up to the 1980 Series I. Is it unusual for a 28 year old Alembic Series I to command a 10K+ price tag? Why not go new? I thought that the Series I from this period was worth about $3,000-4,000 in good condition. Am I missing something or am I way off?
Cheers,
John
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That bass is worth $3K-4K. It may be that he set a deliberately silly asking price so he can show off what he has while discouraging unsolicited offers, or it may be that he's serious like the guy on gbase.com who's been trying to sell a '78 Series 1 for $10,000 since 2001 or so.
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Well, it does say 1980 series 1 Massive mojo magic $12,000 ,price reflects its magic.
They are in fact the registered dealer for Utah (http://www.alembic.com/family/usa_dealers.html target=_blank).