Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: glocke on February 20, 2011, 05:02:06 AM
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Im slowly getting back into playing after taking a 6 month+ hiatus...Im pleased to say that Im practicing on my own for several hours a day, and back to enjoying it after a couple of bands that crashed and burned left me hating on music for a little bit.
I've re-connected with musicians from a band I was in 2-3 years ago. I knew going into it sort of what to expect, these guys are all excellent players but have their own way of doing things (this is a nice way of saying they are really kind of burned out ). Its been 2-3 months of 6 hour rehearsals every other week, and we don't even have what I would consider to be one solid sets worth of material. This past week the drummer (who hosts rehearsals at his house), sent a list of 20 tunes out that seem to be surfacing from practice to practice, and suggested that we focus on these...I show up this week with my parts learned to almost off the tunes, but the lead guitar player apparently had other ideas as he started calling out tunes that I had never heard or played before and writing what he thought were the correct changes on a white board (turns out the changes were not correct for alot of them).
End result is that we spent 6 hours playing 5 tunes that no except the lead guitar player was familiar with, and there is still not a set goal as to ultimately what songs to work on..To top it off even tunes that they should know by now they are making mistakes on (missing cues, repeating verses, etc).
In most bands in the past that I've been in during the past ten years there was some consistency from week to week as to what is being worked on, and also communication by phone or email prior to rehearsal day as to what we should work on..but in this case there isn't anything.
I'm really just venting more than anything....but is what am I looking for (organization, consistency, etc) really that much to ask for ???
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Sorry that your current band isn't turning out better. The straight answer to your question is, No. That's not too much to ask. Also, vent away. The club is a safe place to do it.
I guess I've been lucky in that my band experiences have never been such a waste of time. Sometimes things haven't worked out well but it was always for other reasons. Rehearsals were usually fairly productive.
Sorry you're going through this. I hate to see people get inspired about playing again and then have such a sour experience with it.
Rich
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I hate to see people get inspired about playing again and then have such a sour experience with it
Well, I learned alot over the past year....The most important thing being to play for yourself first...As much as I would like to once again be a part of cohesive band that plays out, haves fun, and makes progress, Id be just as happy staying home and playing for myself.
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To me the having fun part is critical. The money isn't bad when we play a gig but this isn't about the money anymore. There isn't any amount of money (that's likely to happen)that would make up for a really bad band experience. Once again, I'm having a good time playing.
I've gone through the great hobby - awful job - great hobby cycle and I love it this way.
I have thought about what I said about the productive rehearsals. A recent band broke up with some bad feelings between a couple of the members. One thing that came out was that the drummer spent a lot of down time waiting for us to work out parts. Guitar complained that the drummer was usually late for practice. Drummer replied that he spent a lot of time sitting there. Wake me up when you guys have figured out whether it goes from E to A or goes from E to B then to A. It was mainly one guy who didn't really know the changes. I never noticed because I was getting something out of the discussion. However, I wasn't very aware of what was going on with the drummer. This isn't what broke us up but I'm sure it was a contributing factor. Once again, I need to look outside the little circle around me.
Rich
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I'm not there, but I would think you're worrying in the wrong direction. Members of a band need to start with the same goal to move in the same direction. What's your band goal? Is it to just get together and have some fun, or are you hoping to gig? If other members just want to jam for fun, then this isn't too far from normal. I would definitely expect communication to know the plan for the following week.
If you're hoping to gig, one of the best ways to get a slow-moving band to gel is to get a booking. Even if you start with an hour at a friend's party, it can be enough to create some focus. Usually, people in the band have some connections to people in other local working bands. Sometimes that can create an opportunity to play an opening set somewhere.
It sounds like maybe you and the drummer are on the same page. With a six hour rehearsal, I would think you could have some agreement on classifying songs. Some songs are in, and you can start the week by running through a set of them. If we're talking about 20, that's something around two hours? After that, go into free-form to work on new stuff. Also, with sessions that long, you should be able to give everyone a chance to call tunes for a part of the day.
One thing I can almost guarantee is that things won't get better without action. There's risk in acting, but it sounds like you need something to change.
-bob
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Rehearsals...this is the way we handle it, songs are chosen, learn them at home in the agreed key, the internet just about has every midi file/chord chart. Go to rehearsal(max three hours, after that I get p****d off). Do the songs at the next gig. End.
If the band members haven't done their homework BEFORE getting to the rehearsal then it is just a waste of time for everyone. Six hours to play five tunes is overkill, if we don't get it right in three goes then there is something wrong.
I have been in bands like that and in the end I leave as I cannot be bothered with that mentality anymore as we all put up with it in the early days of our 'musical career' 'cos we were excited and naive but not as your experience progresses, it is a waste of personal time which we seem to have very little these days.
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Since I started playing with these guys I dont think we ever discussed what the overall goal of the band is...It could very well be that these guys just want to meet up for fun and to make some noise, but I just assumed it was a step above that, and that at the very least we would work on getting a couple of sets of material together to nail and go out and get some gigs...
Terry, what you described is the situation I am used to the most. People doing homework at HOME, showing up at rehearsal (2-3 hours max) to run through the tunes and than play out.
These guys are cool guys to hang out with, but as Im coming to discover (or rediscover) they are not the best people to be in a band with.
Unfortunately where I am located there just are not that many opportunities to play music unless I want to do an even further drive, which I may have to end up doing.
As much as I want to play some tunes with others, not being organized at all and having my time wasted by learning tunes that wont get played again is something that just really drives me up a wall....
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Gregory -
I recall you posting awhile back with your frustrations - I believe I sent an 'off-line' e-mail to you about it. I TOTALLY feel your pain - in fact reading your original post is like reading a chapter out of my life from a year and a half ago.
You are not alone in your frustrations.
For fun, For money, both require a level of professionalism of the groups individual members. Sorry that you are not finding that now.
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If we're talking about 20 [songs], that's something around two hours?
Bob: You've obviously never been in a Grateful Dead band! hehehehe
Personally, I think it would be quite difficult to get serious when the band only rehearses twice a month. In my experience, the band needs to play together at least once a week to make any real progress. In my band, (which tries to play weekly but life does seem to get in the way sometimes), we have found the internet to be very helpful, as much of the necessary discussion can be done via email prior to rehearsal.
Remember, of course, we are all dealing with musicians!
Bill, tgo
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Bill..oh damn I forgot that we are musicians...the worst people on the planet to get on with LOL.
I still think 6 hours is a bloody long time..what are they doing?,Jaco/Weather Report/Return To Forever stuff??
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Bill..oh damn I forgot that we are musicians...the worst people on the planet to get on with LOL.
I still think 6 hours is a bloody long time..what are they doing?,Jaco/Weather Report/Return To Forever stuff??
6 hours is an ungodly amount of time for me to spend rehearsing,add on a 1 hour drive and thats 8 hours out my day. That is one reason why I did not agree to weekly rehearsals with these guys. Id say out of those six hours there is really only three hours of playing, the rest of the time is those guys hanging out and BSing. Im not opposed to the odd 20-30 minute break, but the routine these guys have is to play for an hour, BS for an hour, play for an hour, BS for an hour, etc..
Now, if these were focused, organized rehearsals that consisted of three hours straight of playing, I would not mind at all doing weekly rehearsals.
As for the material, its a mix of Grateful Dead songs, classic rock and some originals. The part that is scary is that alot of these tunes are really pretty basic no brainers, and I know they have played them before so should know them inside and out, yet they don't.
It's all very irritating for me as when it comes to music and rehearsals I do like to have some organization, structure and game plan...Im not even opposed to people introducing a tune that I have never played or never heard once in awhile at rehearsal, but to introduce 5-6 songs that I have never heard before, they were unable to provide copies of, and were not even sure of the changes themselves is just utter nonsense.
I guess the bottom line is that they look at this as more of a bowling night/get away from the wife/party night than anything....kind of a bummer..
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If they are doing Dead music, six hours might be just enough time for three sets and one good Dark Star! lol Otherwise, I agree that around 2.5 - 3 hours seems to be a good window. I think the more important thing is the regularity as opposed to the length of rehearsals, though. When I give advise to people just learning an instrument, I always stress that the key is to play every day. Pick up a guitar for 20-30 every single day and you'll get further faster than if you play for two hours, take three days off, play for three hours, take two days off, etc.
And I wouldn't necessarily characterize us musicians as the worst people to get along with. It's just that, as a group, we do tend to reside on the flaky side. I once heard someone define a professional musician as someone who couldn't get their s**t together enough to find another way to make a living! (All apologies to the pros on this forum who, obviously, represent the exception that proves the rule!)
Bill, tgo
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Odd double post with mega delay removed...
Bill, I have done the Dead thing, but I figured the need for long rehearsals ruled that out. The Dead thing always seemed to me more to involve a bunch of capable musicians working inside a loose framework, listening to what was going on, and reacting accordingly. That can take a lot of time playing together, but I wouldn't be too worried about learning parts.
Yes, 20 Dead-style tunes can easily make a gig. My current band can do 12-13 tunes in a tight 45 minute set with maybe 3-4 breaks of under a minute each and the rest of the tunes transitioning into each other. Sort of the opposite end of the spectrum. I may have forgotten what it was like to play a four minute song for fifteen minutes before turning it into something else.
(Message edited by bsee on February 20, 2011)
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I think 'organized rehearsals' are as big an oxymoron as 'jumbo shrimp'. Though now that I think about it, I CAN find jumbo shrimp anytime I wish . . . .
This is the type of thing that ended up on the Why I will Never Play Gigs Again list. Back when I did subject myself to playing in public with a revolving list of druggies, alcoholics, no-talent dead-eared egomaniacs, and other assorted hunman anomalies not yet sorted out by Darwinian procession (not that I'm bitter about any of this, mind you . . . . !), I always preferred to replace someone in an existing, gigging band. That way, I didn't have to sit thru the endless rehearsals that went nowhere more often than not. I'd generally already know the tunes, then I'd only have to learn the particular band's idiosyncracies (which often took way longer than learning the tunes).
I will never play out again, and I can't imagine I've just run out of inspiration and/or patience, but I just have. I used to say that 'if you were reasonably well adjusted, happily married or monogamous, and chemically free, just go do something else, you just won't fit in' when asked about playing out. I've yet to find a reason to go against my own advice for me.
For those of you where this DOESN'T apply, thank your lucky stars, and my hat's off to you.
J o e y
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It is unfortunate to hear of your dilemna. I found that I am a little to dominating when it comes to rehearsals so tend to call the shots. My time is too precious to waste not getting the job done so at rehearsals I take charge. It is after all the bass players job of setting the rhythm.
Most times I have found that the other players in the band appreciate a set routine when it comes to rehearsing and we follow that routine to the letter.
1. Rehearse the songs that were posted the week before individually until it is played the whole way through.
2. Rehearse the song transitions i.e. end of a song then count into or start the next with no breaks (unless the lead singer wants to do his pick-up lines).
3. Finally play a whole set from start to finish as would be played on the night.
Formalising a rehearsal structure is all about time management and becoming effective performers so that the punters are happy with what they hear and see.
I believe that if you lay down the law and demand a proper rehearsal more often than not you will weed out the wankers.
slawie
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That all depends upon the goals. Not everyone joins a band to play in a business-like fashion by the numbers. For the vast majority of us, we're not going to get rich or even turn a band into a full time job. If it isn't fun, we're not doing it. If it feels like work, then there better be a work-sized paycheck.
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I see your point Bob and agree with you on all points.
For me, if I want to jam and just balls around and be creative and such then there are no real boundaries as to the approach and then I would not call it a rehearsal.
When I am in a band that is performing for people (paying customers)I try and provide the best product possible. I have been tainted by the business world and as such do make the comparisons and reflective approach all too easily.
I probably will never ever make back the money I have spent over the years gearing up, getting to gigs and rehearsals, buying drinks for punters and other band members among numerous other expenses etc...
I play because I love it. All of it. The drunks, the skunks, the punks and all of the junk that comes with performing in front of an audience.
If life for Glocke can be made a little less frustrating dealing with fellow band members by providing structure where structure is required then I make no apology for that.
slawie (aka Adolf)
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Feel for ya Greg. I'm like Slawie: if rehearsals aren't focused... I focus them. I've spoken with old band members and most all of them tell me that the time they spent with me was the most productive they ever were (from a musical perspective). The joy for me is in playing well and creating something the band can be proud of... that requires work (at least for me). I simply will not tolerate having my time wasted. If that makes it no fun for another band member... one of us has to go (and it's never been me).
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I think the most important thing is for the band to have clear goals and expectations. The people I tend to play with usually have a clear spelt out agenda. We're going to focus on X style, we'd like to gig X number of weeks a month within a certain driving distance for minimum X amount of money, we will rehearse X days a month/week for X amount of time each rehearsal, and will learn X new tunes per rehearsal. Recently I got back together with band mates I gigged with literally a decade ago. We had a non-playing business meeting and set goals and expectations, we decided on 50 tunes for our initial set list and decided on the 1st 5 songs to review at our 1st actual musical rehearsal. (Rehearsals once a week until we start gigging) We didn't need to audition each other because we played together steady for several years prior. Our 1st rehearsal was last Sunday and we nailed all 5 tunes we said we'd learn plus 7 more tunes that weren't on that weeks list in just 2.5 hours of rehearsal. (Including harmonies) Everyone was all smiles because we were all on the same page. We did our homework and apparently everyone went above and beyond by learning many more than the 5 tunes we decided on. I will make a distinction that we were a steady working band a decade ago and had played together professionally for many years and we're older musicians. We're not at rehearsal to party and get wasted, it's all business. I suggest you have a band meeting (Not a bitch session) and find out what people WANT and expect from the band. If you don't agree with each others wants and expectations it's time to look for something else. No who's right and who's wrong ... it's a matter of understanding everyone's expectations and seeing if they are the same as yours. Some people want a business environment (Like my band) and some people just want to hang out and party. No right or wrong as long as you're all on the same page.
ANYWAY ... there is no such thing as a band with no soap operas and no divas, but if you all have the same expectations there is far less of a chance that you'll go home pissed off.
Good luck!
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If you are doing cover material It is good to have heard a version of a recording of the intended or desired musical delivery . Charts , in staff notation or just chord charts will always help instead of having to learn it all first JUST by ear and then play by JUST memory. Sometimes if it is also vocal music it is also helpful to have the words written with the chart to get the feel , grove and phrasing right.________ Like Jaco used to say WRITE IT DOWN ! If you bring charts to the table it will enable folks to focus and pay attention and get the job done .In many professional musical circles , Jazz, classical , studio musicians , are given charts with little rehearsal time before a performance or recording .I am certain we have such sight reading masters right here in this forum.
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Lots of experience talking here, and I can personally relate to most of it. Slawie said, ...if you lay down the law and demand a proper rehearsal more often than not you will weed out the wankers. Which I found to be true, but it leaves one with the problem of replacing them... then here we go again with the 2-steps-forward-and-one-point-five-steps backward dilemna. I don't have any answers; but it seems to me that discussions of band goals should be held at the outset, not sometime down the line when wanking has become an entrenched feature of rehearsals.
Trying to get people who have full-time day jobs to be serious about getting a band together for little pay and late nights is difficult. Lots of us in this situation lean toward making rehearsals into jams/hang-out sessions and putting productivity lower on the priority list.
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Bands come and bands go.....some are good and some suck a little and some a lot ....But I have fun in all of them...
The good ones are when there is good comunication on selections and eveybody is on time for rehearsal and the gigs.....didn't have to have the talk about goals in the good bands because those were the ones with really good talented muscians and made lots more money and they were/are more fun also.
The bands that we had to have a talk about goals always sucked,less talented muscians, less money,less fun....
So if you have to have a talk about goals.....Not a good sign....
Kinda funny hows that works!
Sometimes if I'm inbetween bands and no side jobs....and just getting a little fed up with the music business....
I will lay my bass down for a while and go fishing for.....ofcourse...Bass!
But sooner or later the music bug always pulls me back in. I love performing live and hope I never get to the point where I won't perform live.
However I can relate to those whose had enough, There was a time when I laid my bass down for two years!
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The bands that we had to have a talk about goals always sucked,less talented muscians, less money,less fun....
So if you have to have a talk about goals.....Not a good sign
You know, Ive noticed the same thing...The bands that Ive been in that worked, were good, and were fun just seemed to kind of happen effortlessly, meaning we didnt have big discussions about goals and what not...
Trying to get people who have full-time day jobs to be serious about getting a band together for little pay and late nights is difficult. Lots of us in this situation lean toward making rehearsals into jams/hang-out sessions and putting productivity lower on the priority list.
I guess this is really what these guys are after, more of a hang out session than anything. I went out there last night and it was more of the same, the guitar player called out a bunch of tunes and their changes that I had never heard of or played before..this was even after I called the day before to ask him what tunes he was thinking of playing the next day..I figured if I at least had a heads up I could download them on itunes and listen to them on my ipod at work..
Oh well...Guess I have to decide to either take it for what it is, hanging out and not really doing too much with some great people, or find another band that is more focused which more than likely means switching genres and playing stuff Im not that fond of.
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I totally disagree on bands talking about goals. Having and communicating goals are a sign of a good business attitude IMO. You don't want a band of musicians who all want something different because it won't work out. Do you want to play rock, T-40, country, dance, prog? Do you want to gig out every week, twice a month, never? Do you want to create a business with a goal of gigging or do it for fun? How far will we drive for a gig? How much $$ do we expect per man? Are we going to learn cover songs, all originals or just jam? Clear goals make for bands that get along ... at least for a while! Maybe if I use the words clear expectations it'll ring better with you. I've WORKED steady for 3 decades and all my bands have had specific expectations. Type of music, type of gigs, expectations for rehearsal, expectations for conduct, (Not getting totally faced at gigs) what do we do about TAXES? I'm talking professional music not cellar band stuff. Any business that doesn't have a clear objective is doomed. And if the objective is to jam and party in the basement that's cool as long as that's what everyone wants. That would also be a goal ... to have a good time jamming in the basement. And if you join a band that's established with a good schedule and steady money perhaps a lot of these things don't need to be discussed because you can see what you're getting into and professionalism and reliability is emplied. But when it's a start up band or people who don't really know each other talking goals is essential.
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I don't have as much experience with bands as most around here, it seems; however, I have never once been in a situation in which it did not behoove us to talk about goals, at least for a while. None of the bands just magically coalesced into a well-oiled, unit of like-minded individuals. Of course, I am currently in a band that DID discuss goals and come to an agreement, and then one of us decided to change his level of commitment... so much for early communication on that count!
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When I started my current band I handed all prospects a song list. Classic rock cover had a niche here in our area and that's what I decided to play. If a player didn't want to do that then all he had to do was say no, and I ran through a few of those before settling in with some talented guys who were all like-minded. Now 3 years later, everybody brings in new(old) stuff to play and we'll try anything as long as it's not Lynyrd Skynyrd. I guess the wankers were eliminated before they got a foothold. We're tight, practice twice a week, gig 3-4 times a month and getting better as we go. And every once in a while we have cocktails at rehearsal just to air it out and see if we can play well drunk... we can't.
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So if you have to have a talk about goals.....Not a good sign....
This comment may have been misunderstood... this comment was made about the original post and he has prior experiences with the members.
Glocke post 835... I've re-connected with musicians from a band I was in 2-3 years ago. I knew going into it sort of what to expect
Thumbsup post 258
The good ones are when there is good comunication on selections and eveybody is on time for rehearsal and the gigs.....
Raymond
Of course you have have to have some discussion about goals...
I have been in several Professional Bands and will be in future and some were Magic it happens normally to talented professional muscians.
I also have several successful businesses. Geese...I'm tootin my own horn...maybe you struck a chord with me and I took your comments to personal!
Cheers
(Message edited by thumbsup on March 02, 2011)