Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: mica on July 19, 2011, 04:44:44 PM
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I was emailed this question yesterday:
Love music, love electric guitar. Countless zillions of electric guitars, but I could tell you 100/100 it's Jerry. There's just no other sound like that. Why is that?
It's something I've thought about before, and I sent this answer:
There are just some special souls who can make an object like a guitar have a distinctive voice. Jerry is certainly one of them. He could be playing any guitar from any maker, and his voice could be clearly heard.
I think what matters most is that the musician has something to say with their music. Without that, no guitars, effects, amplifiers, strings, or processing will make up for a lack of content.
Sidenote, I was grocery shopping over the weekend, and I heard a song that was completely unfamiliar to me, but I knew instantly that it was Stevie Ray Vaughn, I mean *instantly*. A few bars in his singing starts and it was confirmed.
I'm curious at how others might answer this question. I'm sure there's much more to say on the subject.
Also, are there any musicians that you are tuned so well to that you can identify even obscure recordings as them? I think the first one I could really hear like that was Santana, because my parents let me play Abraxas over and over and over as a toddler (bless them!).
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I've listened to just about everything Frank Zappa has ever recorded more than a few times. It has been ingrained in my soul. Another band would be The Allman Brothers Band/Duane Allman. instantly recognizable....
(Message edited by CRobbins on July 19, 2011)
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Gee - well, I'd have to give some serious thought to your first question, but you're right - a musician needs something to say. Sound aside, I can recognize Jerry's playing purely by his phrasing, how he decides to tell his story. Listen to him on acoustic, or a MIDI patch - it doesn't matter the instrument (though so many people seek to recreate the SOUND of his guitar) - Jerry sounds like Jerry. He doesn't sound like an Alembic or an Irwin or a Strat, etc.
I'm sure others will put it far more elegantly than I just did.
Other musicians that I can absolutely identify quite easily, even if their instrument was solo'd in the mix:
Mark Knopfler
John Bonham
Eric Clapton
John Medeski
...not just for their actual sound, but their phrasing, note choices, their feel and what they say through their instrument... There's something special about all of them, and I suppose that's why they are so accomplished.
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Mica,
I can usually identify certain bass players the moment I hear them. Of course, Jaco comes to mind, as does Stanley Clarke, Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, and John Entwistle. I can also usually identify certain types of bass guitars (Precision, Jazz, Rick, Thunderbird) or bass guitars like those marks.
As for obscure stuff, I can almost always identify something that is Frank Zappa, early Genesis stuff, King Crimson, etc.
I will say one thing, though - one could hand two people the same instrument, and it would sound completely different. For example, if someone gave me Entwistle's instruments, or Clarke's, or Jaco's, it wouldn't sound like them. It would sound like me playing their instrument, for better or worse. So much more goes into tone than just the equipment itself - touch, hand placement, muting, picking, fingers, etc. That has as much to do with tone and voice as does the choice of instrument itself IMHO.
Alan
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Jerry, Carlos, & Stevie, obviously. Leo Kottke. Robert Cray. Johnny Winter. Mick Scott. John Cippolina. Phil Lesh. Jerry & Mick I can spot electric or accoustic. I think your explaination is a good one; I would add that any player who's not just copying has his/her favorite moves/patterns/ways of thinking about music, and these guys' habits are ones that 1) are particularly idiosyncratic and 2) ingrained through much listening in my ears, brain, and heart.
Peter
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What really floors me is when a radio is competing with background noise, just barely audible. Perhaps you catch the beat to the tune backwards or think the 2 is the 1, whatever, you're just trying to get your bearings. And then, that certain player's voice comes in and you immediately know who it is, but you're hearing the phrasing from a different point of reference..... That's happened to me a couple of times recently one was w/ Dr. John and the other of course w/ Garcia.
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Ry Cooder, Jeff Beck, Richard Thompson, Bill Frisell, John Fahey...
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Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself.
- Miles Davis
Peace and Love,
Hal-
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my (jazz nerd) friends and i used to play a game where one of us would pick a random recording (usually something most of us were at least a little familiar with) and the rest of us would try to guess the players. i got really, really good at it... although usually it just turned into being able to recognize a certain member of the band and just associating them with musicians from there. but i've noticed that i'm much better at it with jazz than i am with other types of music. I can name Coltrane, Ayler, Miles, Mingus, Monk, Duke, Sonny Rollins, Bird, Chris Potter, Josh Redman, Elvin Jone etc. in one note. but when it comes to rock i'm not as good (other than a few guys like Jerry, Duane Allman, Hendrix).
i don't know what that's all about, but I definitely agree that all GREAT musicians have a really distinct sound, and it's just a matter of familiarizing yourself with their playing, whether it's by listening to them on a regular basis, or by studying them.
i heard a recording of a master class Chris Potter did one time where he was talking about understanding the history of your instrument. He was playing tenor saxophone at the time, so he demonstrated some of the greats' sounds. he could absolutely nail other people's tones, like Coltrane and Coleman Hawkins, and Lester Young and Michael Brecker. but when he played his own thing, he sounds so absolutely unique.
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I think if we are talking about bass players the one that stands out the most for me is James Jamerson. So many great motown hits were due to his subtle and masterful playing. And, when it wasn't him, it was someone who was trying to sound like him. They never got it.
My friend Terrence asked me long ago, the 90's seem so long ago, why do you want to sound like someone else? He answered his own question with the most wonderful inspired solo that left me with the knowledge that the longer one mutes his/her voice, the longer it takes to truly say something.
Nick
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J. Robbie Robertson
Jorma
Hendrix (duh!)
Django
Bill, tgo
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slappers poppers thumpers & funkers have all gotten their style from Larry Graham so when ever i hear funk bass to me its Larry! http://www.larrygraham.com/fr_photosvideos.cfm (http://www.larrygraham.com/fr_photosvideos.cfm)
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James Taylor springs to mind. as soon as he starts picking he's instantly recognisable, both from hs technique and more obviously his tone.
Jerry Douglas' dobro playing is pretty unique too.
One bass player that hasn't been mentioned so far that has an instantly recognisable tone is Billy Sheehan.
As far as slappers go, they're all much of a muchness apart from marcus Miller who (to my ears anyway) has a really distinctive style.
Graeme
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#12 you know that's right!!!
Amen!
Peace and Love,
Hal-
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Allan Holdsworth
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Coincidentally I was having a discussion tangentially related to this yesterday with a guy who is a Telecaster afficianado. He said that Teles of different construction and components had distinctly different sounds. I told him that I have heard BILL KIRCHEN play numerous different types of Teles and I can always tell it's Bill playing.
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There are many comments here that I concur with here , it's that Signature Mark , that telegraphed signature of the Artist of their Mind , Body and Soul , ___that voice from their entity just like brush strokes that come through regardless of what instrument . I like that Miles Davis quote that left Hal left in his post #390 ;Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself.
Mica , ____this is an awesome thread that you started here , I really like the introspective aspects that it can ignite within our minds , Cool !
I don't want to be redundant in mentioning other players that already have been mentioned . These also come to mind , Wes Montgomery , Jack Casady, Joe Pass . Don Ellis, Willie Nelson, Wynton Marsalis & Lew Soloff ; You have probably heard this before , one of my favorite trumpet players with such aspects ! ______
http://www.jazztrumpetsolos.com/solo.asp?soloist=LewSoloff&Solo=SpinningWheel (http://www.jazztrumpetsolos.com/solo.asp?soloist=LewSoloff&Solo=SpinningWheel)
I am sure others will come to mind as well .
Sonic Regards !
Wolf
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Shame on me, ____ How could I leave out Michael Manring ? I can Always tell it's him ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4Ra2KOyas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4Ra2KOyas)
Or Mark Egan ! ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_PbVFEOnQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_PbVFEOnQ&feature=related)
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I concur with with just about all of the artistis who have been named. Carlos is actually the one that I can identify the easiest but Jerry, Stevie, Jimi, and Duane aren't far behind. Sticking to guitar I would add to the mix Pat Methany, Ralph Towner, Terry Kath, and David Wilcox (the folkie).
I find it interesting that almost all of the artists whose names have been offered are not of current vintage. Do people think that's primarily due to: (1) what I assume to be the ages of most of us; (2) how today's music is produced and reproduced; and/or (c) fewer unique players being around at the national level?
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Lindsey Buckingham, The Edge, Brian May also seem to come to mind.
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I think the answer that was originally given covers it well:
I think what matters most is that the musician has something to say with their music.
And from that we learn a musicians 'message' and recognize it instantly in a song.
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Benson mentioned Bill Kirchen. For those still digging through the memory banks, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj11j0AbV5g) he is playing an old familiar tune.
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Pauldo (and others): Does your response (I think what matters most is that the musician has something to say with their music.) to my question regarding the lack of current artists being identified mean that you think that many of today's musicians (at least those recording and recognizable at a national or international level) have less to say with their music than those of the past? If that's what you have intended to communicate I think I'd have to disagree. Those who are truly musicians haven't changed, it's what is done to the music after its recorded that had undergone a metamorphisis. Music for music's sake seems to no longer be the norm. It's music to make $$$$ that drives the industry and therefore everything that is produced is produced to sound like whatever is selling at the moment.
I find it interesting to note that my son, who is a guitarist and currently in college, listens almost exclusively to my old albums (GD, Santana, Allman Brothers, Jimi, Coltrane, Miles etc.) rather than more recent offerings. He recently wrote a paper for a Sociology of Music class that focused on how changes in the way we listen to music (personal music devices versus sitting around a stereo with friends)has changed the manner in which we interpret and enjoy the medium.
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Hammer , Much of the music that I think that you refer to if I am not mistaken has similarities to the classical Sonata Allegro form . Often Jazz improvisation goes through such stages in development in the moment when you take it out and thenbring it back to the head From the classical then to jazz and then to rock such as Grateful Dead style jams , variations and etc ... Such influence is so vastly spread as a vehicle for expression and to have a conduit for magical communication amongst the musicians. One can truly have something to say as a musician when one enters this realm.
I think what is happening on some level in some current so called popular music is less of what I wrote in my first paragraph. There is still Jazz ,Blues, R&B, Funk and some rock and fusion , etc .. that follows exercises in self expression and jamming and the such but less main stream . Therefore ; Yes, I can see validity in the last sentence of your first paragraph of your post # 63.
Marc Sabatella's Jazz Improvisation Primer: Jazz Fundamentals
www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-3.html (http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-3.html) - Most jazz since the bebop era is based on a form that is actually quite similar to the sonata allegro form from classical theory: an optional introduction, ...
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form?! what?!
just kidding, but I do love free jazz. and I play a lot of totally improvised music.
speaking of which, one of the most recognizable voices in music history: Ornette Coleman.
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Thanks, Dave - I love getting links here! This is a fav; learned it when I was 18, still doing it today (you'd think I'd be better at it by now), and never saw this version. It rocks - plus, it led me to Bill with Arlen Roth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woUhwS2uPeI&feature=related), which led me to Arlen with Danny Gatton (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdPYmhJZdUc&feature=related), which led me to Danny with Vince Gill & Albert Lee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ljrPfsa50&feature=related)......I gotta get up from this chair or I'll be crawling deeper into the Telecaster rabbit hole all freakin' day!
Brian, as far as the $$$ goes, remember Beatlemania? McCartney has said we were the Spice Boys and we'd sit around and say let's write a swimming pool. Now granted, that was much more his attitude than John's or George's, but it was the engine that drove the whole insanity - and they managed to make some music, too. As for older vs. newer, I will just say that every day I teach, I see kids who could be my grandkids wearing Beatles & Grateful Dead t-shirts; does anybody really think their grandkids will be wearing Justin Beiber or Eminem shirts to school?
Peter
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Peter; of course when you start going down that path you eventually get to the amazing Roy Buchanan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOIL5OqvYs). This video is a great example of his unique voice and technique.
[moderator's edit: unacceptable spelling error]
(Message edited by davehouck on July 21, 2011)
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Peter, I just watched the Kirchen and Roth video; that was fun. There's some guitar pickin' going on in that video. And the Roth/Gatton vid is a hoot as well. I've seen the One Way Rider vid before, and it's great as well. Thanks!
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Wow, great thread and I won't waste any time restating what's already been said.
I do have an anecdote though. New Years Eve 1991 I was a friend house for a NYE party, and the group partook in some reality enhancement. ;)
I was a total NOOB to the Dead world, just hot for GD stuff in particular. The host put on this weird, psychedelic county music with this blazing sunrise sounding Pedal Steel. I was whacked out of my brain and mezmerized by this music!
All of a sudden I look up and say That sound like Jerry for some reason and the one dude looks at me and says That IS Jerry!. It was NRPS Live NYC 1970 and it blew me away..JERRY blew me away.
Then I got on the bus, and learned everything I possibly could about the band, Jerry, The Dead, etc. (and Alembic too)
So my point is even being a NOOB and out of my mind, Jerry still sounded like Jerry, even on Pedal Steel, and said Hello let me play with your Jello-fied mind for a while
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Peter and Dave , thanks for those Vids , Awesome!
paulman (Roger) , I agree , I loved Jerry on the pedal steel as well. I really liked what he did with it yet it is my understanding that he was not completely convinced himself that he was that good with it in all his humbleness. I think he smoked on pedal steel and YES , it sounded like Jerry ! His Birthday is August 1 .
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Roy Buchanan - yes! I had the pleasure of seeing him several times. His playing and spirit were beyond the beyond! His tone and volume was deadly - loud and trebly. I remember he often turned his amp head around so you couldn't see the settings (I guess).
I recently had a talk with Jorma about pedal steel players, since Jorma has dabbled in that instrument. I asked him if Jerry was just a natural or if he practiced alot. He said Jerry practiced A LOT on steel.
(Message edited by Benson_Murrensun on July 21, 2011)
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Ah, yes, Roy Buchanan - a great blues player, no?
Yes - but how about country (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaEFqOIMad4&feature=related)? Or jazz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5_kkK8Y2Ts)? Damn, that boy could play!
Peter
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I saw an interview with Robbie Robertson about a time he was to have a jam with Roy. he said there was an air of a head-cutting contest about. He said he felt like he was about to get into a fight with a guy who was (handling his guitar as though he was) swinging nunchucks around...very scary. Robbie is a very good storyteller.
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Robert Fripp, Dave Gilmour, Mark Knopfler, Duane Allman, George Harrison, Richard Thompson and Jerry are a few guitarists that I never mis-guess. Carlos is pretty easy to spot, too, even on a piped-in music system. It shouldn't even be necessary to list Hendrix. If you can't recognize Jimi. . .
For bass it's Phil, Chris Squire, Stanley, vintage Jack Casady, 1970s John Wetton, Jaco, Geddy Lee, and Jack Bruce. None of them can ever be mistaken for anyone else.
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Let me add to the list of instantly recognizable musicians (at least for me): Thelonious Monk, Steve Kimock, Steven Stills.
I find it interesting that almost all of the artists whose names have been offered are not of current vintage. Do people think that's primarily due to: (1) what I assume to be the ages of most of us; (2) how today's music is produced and reproduced; and/or (c) fewer unique players being around at the national level?
Brian - my thoughts are that it probably does have something to do with the ages of most of us, but also the idea mentioned above that a musician's unique vocabulary and distinctive voice takes many years to develop. There are a few younger players that are getting pretty close to having a unique, recognizable sound. I can think of Derek Trucks, Robert Randolph, and, to a lesser degree, Joe Bonamassa.
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Down the Tele Rabbit Hole? Pete, I hope Brent Mason (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeJHnkUKg_M&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeJHnkUKg_M&feature=related)) and these dudes aren't waiting for you, some scary Nashville dudes from downtown . . . . here's 'Don't Try This at Home'.
The silver Tele is Brent Mason, one the top A-Team session players here, in the same league as the rest of these cats: Michael Rhodes (5-string Sadowsky PJ), Paul Franklin (a giant steel player, can speed pick up and down either neck as fast as Brent), Eddie Bayers, Jr. (drums), and some other picker on Tele named Vince Gill
(a great picker who has his own namesake EMG drop-in prewired Start pickguard, just like some cat named Dave Gilmour, he's NOT from Nashville . . .). I'm sorry, but the B3 guy's name escapes me.
Not too shabby for 'country' guys !
J o e y
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And, oh here's another: My Friend Doug Jernigan, one of the two giants of the pedal steel guitar (along with his friend Buddy Emmons) easing thru the Jazz classic 'Limehouse Blues'. In another thread someone mentioned Garcia practiced all the time to play steel, and believe me it takes it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMA4Eb7Jas&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMA4Eb7Jas&feature=related) In ths clip Doug is playing his usual axe setup (most pedal steels vary in how many benders/pullers they have): Double neck, of course, with 8 pedals, six knee levers, and two knee lifts. The two necks are different tuning (the pretty usual E9 and C6), and the 16 benders all individually sharp/flat individual strings in the two necks maybe a 1/2 step sometimes a shole step. And oh, BTW, it's fretless. So you tune the 20 strings with the regular guitar keys on one end of the neck, THEN you tune each pull/push to guarantee the bends are in tune. As you can see, Doug is amazing. And the old session player reflex kicks in as he answers his cell phone while he's comping behind someone else's solo ! If I know Doug, he was hoping it was an invite to go eat ! ! J o e y
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I'll say this Joey, Michael Rhodes tone is amazing, even through my $46 Sony headphones. That PJ combo seems jammed quite close together. Is that normal for that model, or, is that a custom config? I admit I don't know very much about Sadowsky basses.
BTW is there some kind of Zen thing that these guys don't seem to even break a sweat?
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Thanks Joey; the Mason and Gill video was nice!
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Tom:
I totally agree that it takes time (a lot of it) in order to develop a distinctive sound and of those artists you mentioned I almost included Trucks and Randolph on my list. That still doesn't explain the gap of what by my estimation is 30 years or more unless we are to assume that: (a) most of us are getting up in years and don't listen as much as we probably should to some of the great young players, or (b)there was a dead (no pun intended and not meant to allude to the GD) period in which the type of development we are discussing was either not occurring or at least not being heard except in live situations.
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Joey. Thanks for the Doug Jernigan Vid. I love the sound of pedal steel . Mr. Jernigan is a joy to listen to. One of the benefits of having played in a few local Country bands was that I often got to play with some steel players .
Wolf
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Thanks for the Doug Jernigan clips, Joey. I watched the one you posted and then spent about another 45 minutes watching other clips of him. Amazing player and the smile that crosses his face at moments in ALL of his videos speaks volumes about him and his style. You can tell that the fantastic music coming from his hands brings him joy. No wonder it sounds so good!
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Someone who's instantly recognizable is Neil Young. I remember when I got 'Sleeps With Angels' the album starts with a flute; I think I didn't know Neil could play flute! and sure enough when I check the credits, it's him playing flute...
One modern player who's got something distinctive and unique going on is Tom Morello of Rage Against The Machine;something that sticks out because it's...just different. Les Claypool on bass; can't miss that guy in a recording!
Tony
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How come nobody's mentioned BB King yet? I sometimes think I'd even recognize a muted note.