Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: 811952 on December 13, 2011, 10:46:36 AM
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Lines?
No lines?
I'm probably getting a fretless neck for my Lakland Skyline bass after the new year. I've never played a lined-fretless before, except for a few short minutes with Dadabass' lovely example in Chicago a few years back. Last night I played fretless a bit and my pitch absolutely sucked (I'm also getting over a head cold and that could be part of it). I'm wondering if I should tough it out and go no-lines, or if I should just accept that my ears aren't as good as they used to be and go with lines if they're available. Thoughts?
John
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I have to have the lines and the brighter white color the better. But then I never took a bass lesson in my life! I think there are combinations of visual players and audio players.
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If you're not sure I'd go w/ the lines. If you're worried about the lines messing up the tone then maybe you can just get them on the side?
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The thing is, for years I played almost exclusively fretless, with no lines. I'm wondering if it's like riding a bike, in that it will come back if I just do it regularly (my hope is to play fretless as much as possible) or if I really need the lines. In the past my intonation has been very good without the lines. I don't think the lines will mess up my tone either. I guess maybe the question to ask is whether or not you guys even need to look at the fretting hand when you play fretless?
Also, I'll admit there's an elephant in the room. Inside my tortured mind there is a little voice that says lines are cheating (since I've never needed them before and might not *need* them now). There. I said it.
I also recognize that Jaco played with lines.
Fretless players, what's the consensus?
John
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Ah. All is for naught. It turns out that Lakland only makes a lined-fretless for my bass, so the decision is not mine to make after all.
I'm still interested in what say ye.
Thanks,
John
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No lines! Use tape till you are confident then remove the tape. Or do what my college prof did to us. Wine corks between all fingers supported by rubber bands till your hand widens for perfect intonation. And nerve damage! Ha! Good Luck!
Nick
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Well, besides the visually pleasing look of the no lines fretless I started off with the unlined neck on my FrankenBass. This is a Jazz Bass body with a fretless Precision neck. I have to admit it took a bit of getting used to but I almost prefer it over any of my other 4 and 5 string fretted models. As far as not playing it for a while then going back to it, it does take some readjustment in my finger positions but I usually can fall back in fairly quickly. Never thought of the bike analogy but it seems appropriate, you really never forget, just forget to remember.
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John -
My own version of a Frankenbass has lines (it was the bass that caused the rumble at BagEnd through the 4x21's).
Whilst on the upright my left hand does rather well unattended, but for some reason with electric fretless I feel a need to look at my left hand during position shifts - must be insecurity.
It will be like a bike, you'll have the training wheels for awhile and then you will achieve balance and will no longer need them . . .
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I went with fully lined on my rogue and found it very useful for the first few months but after 6 years of constant gigging with it I find I rarely look at my hands unless I have to suddenly shoot off to a totally different part of the neck. If I was doing it again I'd probably just go with the edge markers even though the fretlines haven't lifted and don't affect the tone at all.
Graeme
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I split the difference: on my fretless Wal, lines are present (over the ebony fretboard), but they are a very subtle brown (not certain what wood type, but they are definitely wood strips) and are only visible to me...they disappear from about five feet away. So it doesn't look like I'm cheating, even though I am.
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I learned (and I'm still learning) on my lined Epic. I've only had one chance to play an unlined jazz bass (this summer at a benefit), and I thought I did terribly on it, but I didn't hear any tonal variation due to the ghost frets on my Epic.
Insecurity rules! (or maybe not)
Thanks for the kind words, John
Mike
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Inlaid lines here, plus LEDs. HA! I probably play 10% on fretless and I've had the bass since 1980 so I know it pretty well. However I am a stickler about pitch so not only do I run a giant tuner while I'm playing it, I still take a peak at the fingerboard now and again. I don't think of the lines as cheating but rather; why make it harder than it already is?
Jimmy J
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Jimmy, is your fretless 4 or 5 string?
I've been thinking about getting a fretless as well.
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I like the way you turned that around. Why do I have to make myself miserable indeed. I guess I should lighten up and quit worrying over something that isn't worth fretting about.. ;)
Last night I played at another big jam sort of thing and pitch was easier to match. I do think I just need to play more. I'm really looking forward to getting the fretless neck for the Lakland, since that wonderful Rogue hanging on Mica's wall (the bass that begat this whole re-infatuation) isn't moving to Indiana anytime soon..
Thanks!
John
(Message edited by 811952 on December 14, 2011)
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Craig,
It's a 5-string graphite-neck Series-I oddball which makes a sound I still love... Fretless can be a really expressive in the right situations but it does take some extra concentration.
John,
You know who Edgar Meyer is? He has some marks on his upright fingerboard! The orchestral guys all shake their heads about it ... until they hear him play.
Jimmy J
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Good lord, he's lyrical!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AYz62UxLPg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AYz62UxLPg)
Thanks! I'd never heard of him before but will try to dig more of his stuff up.
John
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And this.
http://youtu.be/RzR7zzAAwgQ (http://youtu.be/RzR7zzAAwgQ)
Wow.
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I'm no super huge upright fan by any means, but +1000 on Edgar Meyer being an absolutely unreal player. He can play faster in the thumb position than a lot of electric guys can play in their upper register...and his bowing work is phenomenal(Circus of Regrets off of Bela Fleck's Tales from the Acoustic Planet album is my personal favorite).
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Edgar is the greatest.
I prefer to have lines on my fretless fingerboard. I need all the help I can get!
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I've have side lines and dots. It helps me impress folks that only see the clear finger board. LOL
As far as my fretless playing I tell folks that I hope they enjoy semitones.
In all seriousness I have found the markers to be very helpful when I drift or make large jump. But for normal playing I find I adjust my position by ear.
Keith
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(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/118417.jpg)Always looking while indulging.....just like sex!
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Always looking while indulging.....just like sex!
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John; what kind of fretless are you playing now?
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An '88 Carvin LB75. Nice bass that was mine for years, until I inadvertently traded it to one of my brothers for a power amp some years ago (don't ask). For several years I played a fretless Jazz Bass as well, until the truss rod started coming through the fingerboard..
Pitch gets a little better every time I play it, and I'm getting past a head cold which probably means the ears are opening up a bit as well. Lines will be fine though. I had similar misgivings when I had to finally get bifocals, but I can see stuff so it's all good..
When I dropped-in on The Mothership in September, Mica threw that Rogue fretless at me and it absolutely rekindled a passion.
In addition to getting a fretless neck for the Lakland, I've looked into just buying a kit from Carvin for not much more $$, but the 35-inch scale on the Lakland sure makes that B-string speak..
John
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Keavin -
I know that bass - and the guy playing it!! :-D
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My preference would be sidelines on an Alembic bass. Like to have as much ebony board showing as possible.
My second order preference would be no lines, but with side dots (that's what I have now). My first fretless was a Lakland 55-02 fretless. As you have found out, Lakland only makes with lines.
Being the masochist that I am, I now play an unlined fretless with black strings on an ebony board. Play in tune or else! (it has side dots)
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/118766.jpg)
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Lines are cool, as long as the side dots are set BETWEEN the lines rather than on the lines. When they're set on the lines, it always throws me off. Otherwise I'd just rather do without any lines.
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Right -- you mean the line is the actual note. Same here.
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Like this (http://www3.alembic.com/img/inst/13514_sidelinesL.jpg)?
Keith
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That's fine, but I'd prefer them more centered.
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Works for me!
Jimmy J
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/118926.jpg)
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I've owned a few fretless basses that had the dots in-between, as though there were frets or lines, but the fingerboards were unlined. Talk about difficult..
John
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When there are no lines, the dots would replace them at their location. When there are lines, they(in my opinion) should be placed in between, otherwise it totally messes with my frame of reference. I suppose it boils down to how much time you spend with the individual instrument. Enough time and you could get used to anything.
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That's a very inspiring picture Jimmy ,
Is it alright to borrow it for my computer desktop image ?
Kris
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Kris,
Not sure if you're kidding ... if not, I could maybe post a hi-fi version? Haha!
Jimmy J
(Message edited by jimmyj on December 20, 2011)
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I do really see it as a great picture. Simple
and potent.
I miss my old '78 graphite neck beast and this sorta takes me back.
Hi-Fi would be great !
smiles
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OK then. Here's the largest version I'm allowed to squeeze into a forum post. With my apologies to everybody's browser windows...
Jimmy J
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/118965.jpg)
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hehehehe..Thank you,
I've saved the pic , goes to show 150 kb is plenty adequate for detailed pictures...well done sir,
...and to get the thread back on subject;
I like lined fretless boards,unless my eyes are closed ;)
(If the mods see a need to delete the supersized pic to keep the browser users happy...please do)
cheers
Kris
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Yes, mods, delete at will... (The light colored wood is my dining room table and the fuzzy thing in the foreground is the strap button at the very end of the upper horn...)
A-hem, back on topic: my vote is fingerboard lines, LEDs (which you see are also outlined!) and if I could mount floodlights on there I probably would. Whatever it takes to help play in tune. Still gotta be familiar with the bass too in case you close your eyes or have to read music...
Jimmy J
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See what happens when you try to be funny! Nothing but trouble.
Nick
(Message edited by afrobeat_fool on December 20, 2011)
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That's some nice flake there, Jimmy. Reminds me of the 80's!
Nick
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Jimmy -
Beautiful picture!
Did you have the LEDs redone? It looks like you have the new style LEDs that are inset in a silver marker. My old style LEDs are just sitting in a hole in the edge (quite invisible if not plugged into the power supply).
LED tech keeps getting better and better. Macbook Pros and Airs have a backlit keyboard; can backlit edge marker lines be far away now? :-)
David Fung
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Status has them.
http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html (http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html)
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very appealing ,from the Status site:
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/119000.jpg)
Anyone seen backlit fretlines offered ?
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Thanks David,
I think I ordered the bass with silver lined LEDs but I can't remember my reasoning. It may have been as simple as wanting to be able to practice without plugging in. My backup '82 fretless has no silver and I'm lost without powering it up.
Seems like red was the only color choice at that time - the technology really has come a long way!
Jimmy J
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Thanks for all the good insight and discussion. By January I'll have a small hole burning in my pocket and I'm looking at a few viable options.
a) send bass to Lakland and have them install the new lined-fretless neck.
b) trade that bass (a 55-01) on the significantly better-preamped 55-02 fretless, so I don't have an extra neck just laying around.
c) ebay
d) buy parts from Carvin or Warmoth and assemble my own, to my liking.
Jimmy, I think your advice to go for as much visual aid as possible is an excellent idea. I totally get where James (malthumb) is coming from, but I often play in situations where good reference pitch is hard to find (9-piece horn band, for instance).
The irony of ironies is that there's a nice Series fretless on ebay right now. I can't afford it though, and if there is a next Alembic for me it will have a smaller, lighter body..
I figured I could unload a few instruments to generate some capital, but my 14-year-old bassist-son won't hear of it.
I am reminded just how fortunate I am to have this sort of dilemma. I have plenty of gigs, a decent job, loving family, good health and friends.
John
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John,
Yes indeed, all good problems! We're lucky guys.
Maybe you can send the Lakland to the factory and have them make it a fretless AND upgrade the pre? If you like that bass in general that may be your least expensive route.
There are only a few guys I know who play fretless exclusively. I only use it on occasion in the studio and haven't ever taken it on the road. That said, it's a great sound for certain things and maybe even certain bands. And for the fretless-only guys it's part of their musical identity...
Keep in mind that if you do get into it you may find yourself dragging an extra bass around with you. (I know ... lucky!)
Jimmy J
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I always carry two basses with me to every gig regardless, never wanting to be that guy with an instrument problem. ;) Sometimes I bring three.. or four, and decide when I get there which one I'll play.. The basses seeing the most use these days are the Series Alembic, the Lakland and an '81 G&L L-1000.
A fretless would work for nearly all of the gigs I'm playing. If there's reading, that's a concern, but generally I'm playing jazz (poorly, but it's not intonation that's killing it) and blues-y rock stuff. Of course, playing fretless is all about me this time, not driven by any need that isn't internal, and hopefully the listener will be none-the-wiser unless I want them to be.
Having Lakland upgrade my preamp is an excellent suggestion. I'll ask them about it. I seriously hadn't even considered that! (forest/trees, and all that..)
John
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John; I'm pretty sure there's a fretless Series bass listed in the club's For Sale section.
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I have an amazing Rob Allen fretless...I'll try and post a photo later.
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I'm pretty sure I can't afford that one, Dave. Beautiful instrument though. I'm surprised it hasn't sold. That thing would shame me with clarity.
Lakland will do the preamp upgrade for a price I consider reasonable, so unless something else sweeps me off my feetSQUIRREL! it looks like I'll be going to them for the neckendectomy.
John
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I am playing a lined non-Alembic fretless on this tune;
If I would have had a fretless Alembic I would have played it instead .
I would love a lined fretless Alembic Series I Jazz Bass with epoxy finish on the fret board !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1wcEmMyUVRg# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1wcEmMyUVRg#)!
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Nice!
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Thanks
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I enjoyed that enough to share it on facebook. Nice!
John
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Jimmy.
I don't mind dragging that extra bass along at all. Means my side of the stage looks like this...
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oops - forgot the pic..
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/119140.jpg)
fretless on the left :-)
Graeme
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That's the side of the stage I want to be on! ;-)
John
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Yes indeed, very Christmasy!
Jimmy J
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Ever since I did a gig years ago in a dark club where they surprised me for my fretless song intro my turning the lights down all the way, I have taken to clipping a booklight onto the peghead of my converted Yamaha 6P fretless so I can see no matter what happens! It also puts me in my own mini spotlight!
Dave
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I really like the look of an unlined fretless. When I purchased my 74 Series 1 it came with cheater LEDS on the side. They are helpful. I have found that once I got used to the scale (34) I didn't have to much of a problem playing or with intonation. My biggest thing is the neck. I like thinner necks. I find thick necks hard to play. As an example I have a Les Paul with the 50's style neck an while I love the sound I can't play it as easily as I want. Unlined just looks better. Thats just my preference.
Merry Xmas to the club,and may your New Year be filled with music.
Mark
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Dave - That sounds like a great idea!
Mark - I also prefer the look of an unlined fretless, and my intonation is coming back the more I play the unlined Carvin I think. The thickness of the neck is a big thing for me as well.
I'm eager to see if anything pops up on ebay prior to me sending the bass off for the operation. And of course my brother, current owner of the Carvin fretless, has been making noises that make me suspect he'd like to part with it. He never plays it and has a Steinberger upright that he does play. Ultimately, though, I think for my budget either getting the Lakland neck-swap or just getting another Lakland are the best answers unless I find a deal I just can't pass up. I really like that bass a great deal.
Wolf - what bass did you play on that tune?
James (Malthumb), what did you like and/or dislike about the Lakland 55-02?
John
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John , sooner or later I figured someone would ask!
That is a heavy solid Ash body that I purchased from Stewart-MacDonald in the mid 1990's . The neck is a lined Paul Chandler maple fretless P Bass neck with a rosewood finger board that was epoxy coated by Jerry Dorsh of Graphite Guitar Systems. Jerry also did a natural synthetic finish over the entire instrument. The bridge is a Schaller Roller bridge . Tuners are large open gear Schaller. The pickups are Bartolini 9W4 . Electronics are passive volume /volume /tone. It was one of my projects in the mid 1990's. I might purchase an Alembic JAZZ Activator set for it soon. For the Credits on the CD that the tune was released on I played Fretted Alembic Bass on other tunes . A fretless Alembic Series I or II Bass is likely in my future.
(Message edited by sonicus on December 23, 2011)
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John (811952),
I REALLY liked the 55-02 fretless. Pretty much everything about it. It was a nice bass. Easy to play in tune. The 35 scale length was a non-issue. The ONLY reason I sold it was that at the time I had a Hanewinckel fretted 6. A Hanewinckel fretless 6 that was a consecutive s/n to my fretted 6 became available. I only needed one fretless, so I sold the Lakland.
A few years later I realized I suck at 6 string so I sold both Hannies. I needed a fretless, so I contacted the lady I sold the Lakland to and offered to buy it back for the same price. She never responded.
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Great info. Thanks.
John
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Here is my TRB-6P converted to fretless. I wish the lines were brighter. Only problem is that if you do an outdoor gig, passing airplanes will circle and try to land on it, with it's nice wide fretboard! However, it fits my big hands well.(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/119724.jpg)
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That looks good. There's a Spector on ebay (a Euro, I think) that's a conversion and nobody's bidding on it. Perhaps it warrants a look-see..
John
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It's seems I've shipped the G&L L-1000 to The Bass Emporium in Austin. Pending a successful appraisal, it looks like I'll be trading it on a new tobacco sunburst Lakland 55-02 fretless...
John
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Got the 5502 this morning. It is one fine instrument. Can't wait to gig with it!
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/121039.jpg)
Thanks for all the insight and discussion. I am happy with where it led me.
John
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John - that is really a tease!
How about a couple pics with everything taken off?
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Looks like the evil twin of the one I had and sold and tried unsuccessfully to get back.
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Did kitty give it the paw of approval?
Mike
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The cat (Charlie Parker is his name) approves.
It's nice, and the coil-select switch for the treble pickup offers some interesting flexibility. More than I would have expected, actually. Can't wait to gig with it. And of course, my son is down in the basement right now flogging 811952 with a BIG smile on his face.
And he wants a fretless now as well, just like Dad. Scary thing is, he has some serious chops and a great ear and he's only in 8th grade. I'm really proud of him.
Life is good, that we get to enjoy and share these things.
John
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It looks really sweet!
Have a blast, John
Mike
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Yep, my son voluntary 'inherited' my 83 Squier P bass which I modified with a set of Alembic P/J activators(twin vols, bass & treble EQ), Badass II bridge, it was in good condition until he subjected it to the numerous thrash emo bands he was in..it still plays and sounds excellent but the body looks a little worn..or rock'n'roll christened!
He has moved onto wearing out his voice now!
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This thread and playing a couple of fretless bass in stores has made me jump into the FRETLESS ABISS also! I'll be the proud owner of a wine red MIM Fender Jazz fretless bass in a couple of days. I'll post up some picks when she arrives. I would LOVE an Alembic fretless, but I have to test the waters first.
And the fretles Jazz will also be played by my 14 year old son. John, it's cool knowing I'm not the only one with a son learning bass. I came home to hearing him playing to the Cars today after work - HOW COOL!
Stephen
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Played it at a jazz-jam Monday night and last night at an open-mic thing and it just sings. I'm very happy with it.
Isn't it a great feeling, to know that we can pass these things down? Rock'n'roll christened draws a great mental image! And putting a fretless Jazz Bass in the hands of an eager 14 year old will be a great thing.
Colin's interests are fairly eclectic, but pretty much all good. It's soothing to hear the guitar strains of Bell Bottom Blues wafting up from the basement, until he hits a clam and I visibly flinch. Ten minutes later he's working on some Bowie on the guitar, or some Chicago on the piano he got for Christmas. Then it gets quiet and he careens through the first several lines of Teen Town on the bass. And of course he plays alto sax in the high school pep band. He's going to be a monster player. We'll have to hook the kids up at one of the get-togethers and maybe nurture some long-term musical relationships. These are some of the things that make it great to be a Dad.
John
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- pardon the hi-jack.
My son (21 yrs) plays bass as well, and when he visits he usually heads straight for my Distillate (he has a Fender Jazz). He has turned me on to new eclectic music such as John Zorn. If we nail down a date early enough for a Chicago Gathering I might be able to get him to travel in for a visit.
Paul TDO
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That would be great, Paul!
John