Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: juggernaught on September 25, 2008, 12:47:46 PM
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I'm going on a week long trip to Minnesota to visit family (and visit Planetbass, please dont tell my partner!), and I want to bring along my Brown Bass. Does anyone have any experience with trying to bring a bass carry-on on Frontier? I called them up and their answer was if there was room, which is at best ambiguous. Has anyone been forced by Frontier to gate-check?
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Are flying 1st class?
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nope :/
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To be honest, your better off leaving it at home. A bass as carry on is still a large item, and it may or may not fit in the overhead. I am assuming you plan on bringing it in a gig bag? if you are lucky, and do get it to fit, there are still other people who will need to put the luggage into the overheads, which means other peoples crap will be pressing against your bass, and even in a gig bag this could cause minor damage.
There is also the fact that if you get there and it wont fit, they will make you check it, in a gig bag.
Even if it is able to get on as carryon, if you have to take a connector flight in a smaller plane, it will have to go into the luggage compartment.
If you absolutely have to bring the bass, I would just get a real flight case for it and check it, and insure it...
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I've never had any problems with the fitting gigbag in the overhead as long as they let it on the plane. and that's even with one of those regional planes on AA with a full flight. Super 8s are no problem too.
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Also, I wanted to mention that my gig bag isn't any slouch either. It's a body glove hybrid, which is a hard soft case, and is able to withstand the kinds of bumps you'd expect in the overheads AFAIK.
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Up to you. Its your bass. I tried flying once with my jazz bass...i think the carrier was either northwest or frontier..in any case, they wouldnt let me bring it on as carryon despite assurances when i called it ahead that it would be allowed. Since it was in a gig bag I didnt want to check it, and ended up having to call someone to pick the bass up.
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Was it Frontier? That's the kind of info I'm looking for. I've been hearing elsewhere that Frontier is good about this thing.
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And what happens if the nice airplane people let you carry-on your instrument, but the mean nasty airplane people say no on the way back? Going to fly with an instrument? Either get yourself a good flight case, or buy a cheapo instument that you won't mind too much if it gets destroyed. After all the $ I spent on my custom Further, it was a no brainer to spend a little more for a good custom Calton case for it.
Bill, tgo
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OK, I don't need nor want a lesson here. All I wanted to know what experiences people had with carry-ons specifically with Frontier. I'll take it from there, thank you very much. Capiche?
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My experience here was a couple of years ago when I had a gig in Florida at the Bob Marley day Festival in Universal Studio's. I called the airline ahead and was told yes I could carry carrymy guitar on board as long as it would fit the overhead lockers.
I took my alembic Orion guitar in a sturdy but not flight case.
Similar to this but guitar shaped for a strat.
http://undergroundmusic.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=455&zenid=36573af0ff2645a4655fff089403ef2e (http://undergroundmusic.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=455&zenid=36573af0ff2645a4655fff089403ef2e)
I had no probs on the outward journey from London to Atlanta , then atlanta to Florida.
However on the way back the check in team allowed me to take the guitar on the plane from florida to atlanta. In atlanta again they said yes I could carry it on board. However when I got to the passport control area where all personal items are x-rayed, I was told that I could not carry the guitar on the plane... So I had to go back to check-in and have a heated discussion about this with the clerks.
In the end a senior manager came and said that the guitar could not go on the plane as it was a safety risk. However he did say that if I paid for an additional seat, i could carry the guitar on the plane. (strange logic that).
In the end it had to go in the hold. Fortunately my Orion wasn't damaged in the trip.
I have to say that I have not had that experience on trips in Europe.
Jazzyvee
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Was that Frontier? I don't think they fly those airports.
However, you make a good point: the airport can make a difference. I've heard that ATL is especially anal.
Any additional experience with Denver or Minneapolis/St Paul?
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Devon,
The point you are missing here is it doesn't matter what airline you are dealing with. All of them are pretty much the same. There is no guarantee that you will be able to take the guitar with you in the cabin. Anywhere along the route through the airport an airline agent or flight crew member can say you have to check the instrument into baggage. If the flights you are going to be on are empty you most likely won't have any problems taking it into the cabin. If the flight is full it is very likely they will say it does not meet the carry on requirements or that there is not enough space so you have to check it. The only flights I recall where I could carry my bass consistently were the red eyes I used to fly between LA and Chicago every few weeks.
This used to be a little easier some years ago when planes had more closets and didn't run so full. However even then having to gate check my bass was not uncommon. I only used a hard shell case but never had any problems as they hand carry the bass down to the cargo hold and hand carry it back to the gate at the destination. Since it is last on and first off it minimizes the risk of something bad happening.
As JV also brought up you could buy a seat for it. This will guarantee you can take it in the cabin.
Keith
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Keith, I think you're missing something extremely fundamental here. Airlines and airports aren't homogeneously unpredictable as far as letting you carry-on. Just because it's a problem in general doesn't mean that X airline is just as difficult as Y airline. That has been my experience. For example, AA is very good from my experience as long as you are riding on a super 8. If you ride regional, then you may have to have a fit in the gate. This isn't Murphy's law here, it's prediction through statistics balanced with risk. I well understand the point of this being difficult; otherwise I wouldn't ask. I am well aware of the risks. What I want is specific information on a specific airline and airports. From that information, I can *predict* whether it is worth the risk of trying to carry-on. Are you trying to tell me that you have ridden or know of someone who has ridden every airline and had trouble with every single one of them, or are you generalizing some limited experiences to all possible experiences?
Just to get this straight, ATA cases are not in the cards. If the only option is to check it, I'm not bringing it, no matter how far behind I get on practice.
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Devon,
I just checked my trip info for that trip. It was Frontier.
Dont take this personally, we are all only trying to help.
For me personally, even IF i did have an ATA case Id be hard pressed to bring it on a trip.
If you really need to practice while visiting, I would seriously just invest in an inexpensive bass.
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Greg, that's exactly what I wanted. Thanks.
I'm not taking it personally ;) I just get annoyed when I ask for an apple and I get a banana. I'm just anal as far as getting info, that's all.
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And fruit are fruit....
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what? how am I supposed to make apple pie with a banana? Banana pie? I'd like to see you eat that after some turkey. :P
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Devon,
I've had more problems with AA as opposed to United and Delta and these are typically on larger aircraft such as 747's and 757's (in addition to MD-80's and 737's). Back to the point is no one can give you an answer as there are too many variables.
By the way I never have owned or used an ATA case. I always traveled with an old fashion hard shell.
Keith
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Too many variables? Keith, it's pretty easy: either you have experience with Frontier or you don't. If you have then you can answer the question. Then it's up to me to evaluate the risk.
In regard to Greg and your experience, I may just bring a hard case and have them gate check it if they complain. That sounds like a safe option. Thanks a bunch for the great advice in the face of my silliness.
(Message edited by juggernaught on September 28, 2008)
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Devon,
I did a little research for you and here is what I have found.
First, the TSA doesn't have any policy to prohibit carry-on of musical instruments, so they'll let you through security. We already knew that, but Frontier's documentation refers to the TSA regs, so I figured I'd make sure.
Second, in case you didn't look, Frontier's official written policy will prohibit you from carrying a guitar on the plane. Their contract and website both say the following: Your carry-on bag's dimensions can't exceed a total of 49 linear inches (length + width + depth) and the bag can't weigh more than 35 pounds. There is almost no way that any standard bass guitar, even a Brown Bass, would meet that size rule. My SC measures around 57 linear inches before you even put it in a bag. Certainly, there are travel guitars that would meet that spec and it's one reason I own a headless bass. I'm a short scale player like you, so I can tune a Steinberger down a whole step and capo at the second fret to get a feel much like the SC in terms of scale.
Maybe the PlanetBass guys can lend/rent you a bass for the week? If they are near your parents as opposed to a pilgrimage, maybe you can contact them ahead to ask?
(Message edited by bsee on September 28, 2008)
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If you decide to gate check don't forget to lock the latches. I also take a small bit of strapping tape with me and tape the latches closed at the gate.
Keith
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Yeah, unless it was for a gig, I wouldn't bother trying to take your bass. Unless you can risk its demise. I would just take pictures of it if you'll miss it.
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Bob: yeh, that's what I gathered too. I called a rep afterwords and they told me the official line with over-sized was if there's room in the plane or something to that effect, which isn't very reassuring. Also, planetbass letting me rent one of their basses would be a dream come true, but I can't imagine them doing so.
Keith: so you usually gate check it? How many times have you done this, and has your bass ever sustained damage? Do they ever give gate-checked items to the throwers?
Wade: my thoughts exactly. It's just I have all this crazy afro-cuban to practice, and I don't want to fall behind.
(Message edited by juggernaught on September 29, 2008)
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I use to fly with my Jazz Bass up till 10 or so years ago. Mostly between the west coast and Chicago. It was generally a couple/few times per year.I mainly did it when I was going to visit old band mates or was on a temporary assignment for work that lasted a month or more. I've done it once or twice since then. I've never had any damage to the bass. The case however shows 30+ years of use.
Typically I would add a little additional padding in the case and tape the latches down at the gate as I as said above. The gate person tags it and sets it aside with other gate luggage. At some point a baggage handler comes up and retrieves the luggage. The few times I saw it loading from the cabin they put it on the conveyor into to the plane. Once you land the luggage is carried up to the gate by a luggage handler.
To be honest I wouldn't do it for a week long trip. Given all of the hassles of getting through security and the extra crowded flights I think the lighter you can travel the better off you are. If I still did long trips like the old days I would probably consider packing it up in a box or crate and overnight the thing via UPS or other courier service.
Keith
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Devon,
Every airline has the exact same policy on carryons:
Every single line employee that you meet along the way has the right to reject your bag.
Every one.
And the airline/TSA will back them to the fullest.
If a TSA agent decides that your instrument should not go through security, IT WILL NOT. Go read the TSA guidelines: every line employee has absolute authority, and will be backed by management.
If the gate attendant decides that your instrument will not go on the flight, IT WILL NOT GO. Same policy applies. I have seen people kicked from flights for asking an impertinent question. No kidding.
If the flight attendant decides that the instrument will not go in the overhead bin/must be checked, IT WILL, or you will get off the flight (and if you raise too much of a fuss you can be arrested).
So, the questions you should ask (rather than some specific airline):
Will someone be in a bad mood, and take it out on me?
Will the flight be oversold?
Do the people in question hate guitar players, because they just broke up with one?
These are the sorts of fickle things that could destroy your instrument.
Just in case it isn't already abundantly clear: an airline can have any policy they want, but if the flight attendant/gate attendant decides otherwise, that will be the official airline policy with regards to you and your flight.
Finally, I want to separate reality (the above) from my opinion, which is that this is really, really messed up, and makes me feel like I'm in a police state.
Bradley
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A couple of years ago, I flew from Providence to Nashville and brought my bass in a hard case, as a carry on. I was told that as long as it fit in the overhead bin that I could take it. I asked them what type of plane I would be taking and then had them check the size of the bins. I made sure that they put a note in the computer stating that I would be taking a guitar on board so that I would not have a problem when I got my boarding pass. When I arrived at the check-in counter, I was told that I would have to check the bass and put in the cargo hold. I asked to speak to a supervisor and she allowed my to take the bass on board.
Here is a link to a website that lists the airlines and the maximum size and weight that you are allowed to carry on. Good Luck
http://www.thetravelinsider.info/travelaccessories/airlinecarryonluggageallowances.htm (http://www.thetravelinsider.info/travelaccessories/airlinecarryonluggageallowances.htm)
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Bradley - you said that an airline employee has the right to say the luggage will not go. How do gigging musicians who have to fly with their instruments frequently manage then? Have you heard horror stories? I'm quite worried here because I'll be flying to Chicago (and back) with my band in early November...
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I have seen many, many horror stories in my frequent flyer days. Not just instruments.
Musicians who fly frequently (I can't speak for all of them, but have seen enough to establish what seems like a pattern) use ATA approved flight cases and check their instruments.
The only other option (which I suspect upright bassists are likely to use) is to buy a seat for the instrument.
I didn't want to buy a flight case for my bass, which left me two options:
1) Buy a seat for the bass
2) Drive to Santa Rosa
Fortunately, the mothership is only 800 miles from home, and my brother lives nearby.
So, I drove.
The one policy that does matter with regards to airline policy: if you check the instrument, make sure that they are willing to insure it. Also, I'd be hesitant to fly with an instrument that I could not replace for $2500 or less (the limitation of damages), even in an ATA case.
Bradley
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I don't suppose the Brown Bass can be made to fit in the ATA case for your Distllate, can it? Either that, or that you can take the Distillate with you to practice for the week and delay your sale until the trip is over? Probably cost you $50-75 to check the flight case, though. I bet they charge you that amount each way, too. Financially, you'd do better to find the local guitar shop and buy the cheapest used Dean or Yamaha you can find and then sell it back at the end of the week if you can stand to play such an instrument.
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Even better is if I can find someone in MN to buy the Distillate. That would justify bringing it and I'd be able to practice Any takers?
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Sorry, I'm in MA and about six hundred short...
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byoung mentioned using ATA flight cases. I had an airline employee tell me to never check an instrument into the cargo hold no matter what kind of case it's in. Chances are it will get damaged or stolen. Many musicians that I have come across and do a lot of travelling do one of the following: Carry the instrument on the plane in a gig bag, ship the instrument via FedEx, UPS or another carrier, (always remembering to insure it), or just have the equipment truck bring it to the next gig.
I would call the airline and find out what their policy is
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Get on the plane... Your bass will fit overhead with ease. I had the same problem, but I purchased a bass, so I didn't have a choice but to understand the laws. Airlines are cool, so stay cool.
Boeing made the majority of airbuses with more than enough room in the above head lockers.
Also, consider taking the red-eye flight... this way, fewer people... The fewer the people, the friendly the people and the more room you will have.
Don't sweat it, you don't need to worry, the laws are in your favor now.
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So it seems I'm in big trouble (again, lol).
1. I'll be flying with a bass I want to sell soon so an ATA case will be of no use to me in the long run - it'll cost almost a half of the entire bass's value, and I won't be able to sell it separately as the bass has an original shape (the Nexus in the Family Portrait thread).
2. Actually, I can't afford such a case anyway.
3. As the whole gig is organized in Chicago and we have all expenses covered and the tickets are bought by the organizers not by us I doubt if they remember about instrument insurance.
All that, and I'm definitely not the luckiest guy on Earth. I'm feeling sick already.
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Jarek, In your position, I would be looking for one of two things.
1. Do you have any sort of allowance for expenses as part of your deal? If so, paying all costs associated with the transport of your instrument sounds like a valid expense.
2. If another instrument might do, then you should look into getting a rental of some sort delivered locally in Chicago. You're talking about a fairly sizable city with a historic musical scene, so pro level gear should be available. Maybe they'll pick up the cost of the rental?
(Message edited by bsee on September 30, 2008)
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Hal, where do you get the idea that the laws are in your favor? The regulations for every airline that I have looked into say that the airline should never allow you to carry a guitar in the cabin without buying it a seat because it is oversized. Therefore, I would have to conclude that the laws are against us and only courtesy and reason are in our favor.
Additionally, there are some routes where the red eye flights are extremely popular and almost universally full. It is good advice, though, to plan an itinerary that is lightly traveled if it is possible. With only a couple weeks until he travels, I would expect that it is too late for Devon to make any such changes.
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Bob is correct here.
You have no law protecting carryons. The flight attendant/gate attendant/TSA agent has absolute authority.
If you check a bag, it is automatically insured for $2500. This is why you can fly with ATA approved cases. I would not fly with an expensive instrument.
And the more I read Hal's posts, the more I think that he's trolling (Boeing made airbuses?!).
Just for reference, the interiors of the planes are ordered/specified by the airlines.
Bradley
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i use ata cases anywhere i go, because i want my bass to survive anything. but, if you go, i reccomend getting a steinberger or something like that, something compact.also, byoung is right, airbus is a german company, not a product of boeing.
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YES YOU DO!
You can fly with your axe... TSA will support you!
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1235.shtm (http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1235.shtm)
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The bottom line here is, the size of your axe and what you use to carry it. If you walk on with an anvil case, they will tell you to check it in because its bulky. If you walk on with a guitar shaped bage or case, they will not have a problem in USA. People love music and they love to see musicians boarding their flights. It's a very old solution to a very old and know problem.... FEAR NOT!
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so far as my experience goes, the airlines have always let my bass on carry on in a gig bag. I did have a close call going from Norfolk to DFW as we were on a regional craft for that leg of the trip. The gate staff tried to pressure me to gate check it, but the airline staff let it on. I called AA ahead of time and they told me that their policy was to allow the bass since it wasn't greater than 4 ft long, but as experience showed me, the staff can make exceptions whenever they want.
And this brings me to Frontier. They also have a policy regarding instruments, but it's vague: if it fits. This opens me back up to the risk of being at the mercy of whoever is on staff. However, I was inclined to take a carry on except Greg's firsthand experience is telling me otherwise. I'm going to try to call the travel agent to have some sort of statement put on my ticket to give me arguing power.
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Hal, reading comprehension! The article you point to says the TSA will let your instrument through the security checkpoint. It also states in multiple places that it is up to the individual airlines to decide if they want to actually let your instrument into the cabin. The TSA has absolutely no power to convince an airline to take your guitar on board.
The typical maximum size listed for a carry-on is a combined length plus width plus depth of between 45 and 55 inches. My Strat with no bag measures 39 long by 13 wide by 2 thick for a total of 44. If I don't put it in a bag, it would be legal to carry on Air Trans Airlines, the only one I have found with a 55 maximum size. If you wrap it in anything thicker than a garbage bag, though, it even exceeds that. Thus, everything you are pointing to says that no, you are not entitled to carry your guitar in the cabin.
In short, you are giving dangerous advice to someone who might show up for a flight carrying an instrument in a gig bag. That person would be left with very few options, and probably no good ones, if their guitar were denied admittance to the cabin.
If you're planning on flying with your guitar, contact the airline you will be using. Unless they can confirm in writing that your guitar will be allowed on board, there will always be a risk that you will have to gate check it.
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What are you smoking man, cause I want some of it...
My fellow Alembican, the nature of traveling with a very delicate instrument, is completely acknowledged and very well understood by most commercial airlines.
Surly a private business has the right to allow what ever they deem, and to serve who they wish, but one thing you failed to understand and support is: TSA does control what can, and what passingers can-not board on airlines. No Airline can allow you to board a plane items that are banned. (A moot-point)
The definition of cargo (Musical Instruments) had already been written, and signed off with TSA.
Thus under those guidelines, warrents protocol as such, to honor passengers with musical instuments and one carry-on.
Sure, it's wise to call your airline first, (that's completely prudent) but believe me, there are musical institutions all over the world who'd had lobbied strongly so that we may feel at ease about this concern.
I know my rights.
The strongest point on this topic, is:
The size and remaing overhead lockers availble for your guitar.
However, if there's no room available, then out of safety reasons, Airline personnel would have and in some situations, must use descretion with any bag....
Therefore it pays to reserve an early flight or take flights that are least likely to be full.
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What are you smoking man, cause I want some of it...
My fellow Alembican, the nature of traveling with a very delicate instrument, is completely acknowledged and very well understood by most commercial airlines. GOOD LUCK!
Surly a private business has the right to allow what ever they deem, and to serve who they wish, but one thing you failed to understand and support is: TSA does control what can, and what passingers can-not board on airlines. No Airline can allow you to board a plane items that are banned. (A moot-point)
The definition of cargo (Musical Instruments) had already been written, and signed off with TSA.
Thus under those guidelines, warrents protocol as such, to honor passengers with musical instuments and one carry-on.
Sure, it's wise to call your airline first, (that's completely prudent) but believe me, there are musical institutions all over the world who'd had lobbied strongly so that we may feel at ease about this concern.
I know my rights.
The strongest point on this topic, is:
The size and remaing overhead lockers availble for your guitar.
However, if there's no room available, then out of safety reasons, Airline personnel would have and in some situations, must use descretion with any bag....
Therefore it pays to reserve an early flight or take flights that are least likely to be full.
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That's fine Hal, keep looking through the rose colored glasses. We've both had our say on the matter and I don't think either one of us has any facts to add. I'll stick to the headless for travel, and you do what you're going to do.
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Found this article (http://www.preservationrecords.com/blog2/entry.asp?ENTRY_ID=142 target=_blank) with an interesting suggestion further down heard from Steve Bailey.
hendixclarke, how often do you fly? I'd like to see you arguing about your rights with airport or airline staff these days. It's not like it was before 9/11. I fly as little as possible now, and I'm not even trying to carry an instrument. And with increased fuel costs, airlines are cutting down on the number of flights, so all the flights I've taken in the past couple of years have been full, whether from SFO to Japan or within the country, whether it's Sacramento CA to Portland or Seattle, or SFO to Boston or NYC. The best part is when you ask bsee what he's been smoking and yet you expect airline and airport staff to be all lovey dovey because it's music?!!! Then again, this is the internet, maybe you are really just a mellow guy who travels with his bass all the time and you only get argumentative in forums...
Devon, maybe it would be good to have a cheap instrument to keep at your family's place - then when you get back to your Alembic the music will just fly under your fingers! There's something to be said with having to struggle with an instrument to get it to sing, though it's nice not to have to do that all the time! Best of luck to you whatever you decide to do!
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Whatever man...
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You guy are half glass empty with this... By the way, my work requires much travel, and when I am away from home for weeks upon months, I take my axe with me for the conforts of home and leasure. I had even purchased guitars in other cities (an even bigger risk, some might think).
I had nothing but pleasant experience on planes and I never was never stopped upon entering the foliages of multiple flights.
Hey, if you want to buy in to 9/11 that's fine.
Otherwise, enjoy your travels with whatever guitar that makes you happy bro for I am just sharing my experiences and we are all different, thank GOD!
Peace-
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Now that's more like it! We have to push you sometimes to get you to make sense. It wasn't clear from your posts that you were speaking from experience. Now we know that you are offering an example of the system working.
Do you really take your Series I (which is beautiful by the way) with you on business trips?
By the way, here's an article about classical musicians from 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/arts/music/15tour.html?scp=2&sq=musician%20air%20travel%20instrument&st=cse target=_blank) which offers a different perspective. (You might have to register with the New York Times to be able to view it)
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Hal, do you go through Denver or Minneapolis a lot? How about Frontier Airlines?
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I did get pulled aside for my bass once in ABQ. They saw the battery on the xray and wanted to do various tests on the bass. I was afraid that they were going to want to open her up! Thankfully they didn't: they just did this thing where they wiped areas around the backplates with some tissue and analyzed the tissue with a machine. I bet a lot of this depends on the threat level though.
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Hal:
TSA has authority to tell airlines what they can't allow on board. This is significantly different from telling the airlines what they are required to allow on-board. For example, TSA can forbid an airline from allowing dynamite on board, but can't force the airline to allow Kenny G CDs if the airline, in its infinite wisdom, chooses to ban such malodorous materials!. Even if you had the right to bring an instrument on board as carry-on and the airline respected your right 99% of the time, that 1% could result in a damaged instrument.
In my line of work, I consistently deal with patients who have the right to possess cannabis, but the cops arrest them anyway. We may eventually prevail in court, but that didn't stop the cops from seizing medicine and arresting the person in the first place. That's why I coughed up the money for Calton cases for my Further and D-28. The Calton case is the same size as a standard hard case (The Further case is guitar shaped, like a 335 case - not a big rectangle). On my last trip with the Further, they let me bring it on the outbound flight, but made me gate check it on the way back. My advice is to try your darnedest to carry on the instrument, but be prepared to gate check.
Bill, tgo
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I still like the idea of bringing a gig bag and tucking the neck part under your arm. Clever.
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So, Bill,
Am I to understand that you bought a Calton case because your clients keep getting arrested for possession?
Does it have some kind of secret pocket or something? Filled with coffee? A place to fit stuff?
Do you recommend them for other forms of contraband? Fissile materials perhaps?
Just wondering.
Bradley
PS- Bill already knows this, but I'm yanking his chain. Nothing meant by it.
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Hieronymous, the 2006 article was heart breaking. Yeah, it's sad as hell for us musicians who travel via air. But in all fairness, the article was written back in 2006.
Again, we are talking about the size of something just about or equal to the size of an average guitar...
In fact just call it anything you want...
But just remember to ask yourself this question: will this bag fit the overhead locker and TSA baggage requirements...
Ask for the measurements.
Once you know the Airlines and TSA measurements, measure your bag.
If your bag complies with their rules, then at this point, walk proudly and enjoy your flight... (because you did your homework...)
However, if Flight attendants stops you while entering the plane, tell you know the rules and you would be more than happy to show that it measures perfectly for flight. (There's usually a bag measuring container, that validates size at most boarding gates) ask if they would measure your bag (work with them, make this a professional issue not personal).
If they still stop you, tell them it's a bag with a guitar inside and it could be easily damaged...
Tell them, most hard shell case wouldn't fit their overhead lockers, and the soft bag shotens the length to stow with ease.
Tell them you want to follow the rules... Stay professional and cool and please never make a scene. Be cheeful and smart. Stay on point, with the measurement rules, you have nothing to fear.
If they still want you to check the bag in, ask them why... If they just say because they say so... ask for an official statement of their bases for refusal.
IT WILL NEVER GET THIS FAR, BE COOL!
Last post on this one, enjoy your fly.
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Right.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing a bass fitting into 9 by 14 by 22 inches. That's how big the airline measuring bin is.
Maybe yours has a folding neck or something? Mine won't fit.
Just for reference, that is the allowed size, and you're completely dependent upon the grace of a flight attendant that just broke up with her cheating guitarist boyfriend. Good luck with that.
I couldn't resist feeding the troll, just in case anyone tries to take this advice seriously.
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I know how you feel, Brad. This has been one of the most irresponsible trolling runs I've seen at this club over the last five years. There's the occasional angry or insensitive post, but never anyone so insistent on providing bad information.
There is no airline on the planet that has measurement rules which, if followed, would allow you to carry an Alembic bass guitar onto a commercial airplane. If anyone has documentation of such an airline, please post the link to those carry on regulations. I don't expect to see too many such responses, though...
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Bob, I just wanted to reiterate that while there isn't a specific size rule that allows guitars, they aren't specifically prohibited as they are in an exception class. I couldn't find any info on their website, but got this from an agent reading from more specific regulations. However, I'd bet a bag of gold that the same reasons that airline staff can choose prohibit you to bring your bass are, I'm guessing, as easily applicable to your normal correct size luggage.
also, hal wasn't talking about the sizing bins, but the overhead bins. I have *never* had a problem fitting my bass in the overhead, evn on the regional planes.
I understand Brad has a bit of an attitude but I understand that he's trying to be informative. However, I'm really not able to separate opinion with experience with almost everyone posting here. ...broke up with her boyfriend... talk about trying to find any possible thing that could go wrong. I know this is you being realistic but it sounds like to me
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also, even though Hal's advice could be construed as being foolishly or even purposely misinforming (though I can't for the life of me see how you could be certain of the later), it's worth noting that he's been very helpful if you're trying to minimize risk. Come prepared, be nice and cool, check the measurements, get it in writing... this is all great advice and would certainly help you get your bass in the overhead. The motivation on flaming this idea because it's too optimistic and not %100 is beyond me, but I suspect there are some principles being violated here.
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Devon, you're right that guitars aren't specifically excluded as a class because they are guitars, but Hal's information is completely bogus. There is, in fact, a specific size rule that, if applied, would exclude all full-sized guitars and basses. No one has a right to carry a guitar onto an airplane unless they buy a ticket for it. You may be allowed to do so, but it isn't because you have the right. To suggest that you do and should stand your ground is pretty outrageous.
As far as Brad's attitude is concerned, I'm right there with him. The answers to your question happened a long time ago. There's not too many people with experience because most don't try once they understand the rules and that it is up to the judgment of the flight crew. This thread is going to live on this website beyond your interest in the matter and shouldn't misguide someone who reads it next year.
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If the airlines tell you you can't carry on your instrument, just show them the piece of paper you downloaded from the internet that says you can. Boy that will change their tune fast! This also works with cops on dark middle-of-nowhere highways. When the cop pulls you over and tells you to get out of the car because he's going to search it, you just show him a copy of the Constitution and tell him the law says he can't search your car. The officer will then undoubtedly tell you that he didn't know that was the law, apologize profusely, give you $10,000 for your trouble, and let you go on your way.
And even if the airlines banish your gig-bag protected instrument to the cargo hold, and it gets damaged, I'm sure the company you insure it with won't mind at all that you shipped it in only a gig bag and will be glad to pay off.
yea, right
Bill, tgo
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OK, enough of the defeatist attitude: I think we get it already. Flying with your bass has risks. But it's rather pointless to dwell on this whatever can go wrong, will nonsense. Yes, the airline staff have the last say, yes you can get your bass damaged, yes, it will be your responsibility in the end, yes yes yes we get your point.
HOWEVER! If one was wanting to try to carry on, knowing the rules *can* help you in negotiating with the airline staff in your favor. They can misunderstand the rules themselves but are also capable of being reasonable people. Having a note relating your situation and the rules (on your ticket even) can only help you in that situation. This is *very* useful advice. And yes, we get how they have the final say and can be as unreasonable as they'd like. But giving advice on how to minimize risk when you choose to carry-on is harmful? Come-on people! Think outside your own risk assessment here and let people decide for themselves.
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Also, for the sake of future generations, it may be best if someone compiled an objective summary of what we discussed here (and perhaps what was on the vic site, other sources): the different ways to bring your bass on the plane (carry on, gate check, etc), risks, rights, and most importantly *methods* for minimizing those risk to put on the FAQs. This thread has become far too subjective to be really useful. Heck I'd do it too if I could get further cooperation and research on this subject from members on the methods. We definitely have enough on the risks and lack of rights, so we could stop there. Just saying don't do it isn't enough.
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Devon:
You are correct. Just saying don't do it isn't enough. How about don't do it unless you are willing to sacrifice your instrument? Hey, that's the answer! Hal, you'll love this one. If the airline says no, pull a Hendrix/Townsend - smash up the instrument right there in the terminal as a sacrifice to the R&R Gods. It will then certainly be reduced in size sufficiently to fit on-board! Why leave destruction of your axe to the cargo handlers when you can do it yourself! (And some people win in Vegas, but I wouldn't count on it, either).
Bill, tgo
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Stove gloves off...
For the lack of trust in authorities, Bill I suggest, you NOT attempt to board flights with your guitar(s).
For, you are apparently, the only smart guy in the room.
I am sorry, but correct me if I am wrong, I had not read your experiences (pleasant or otherwise) attempting to board any air flight... (true?)
Therefore, you missed this opportunity to share from this perspective, which is mst valuable.
Cops in a alley... (You are reaching and using fear to fighten me, oh me oh mie...)
I would bet money, this is a clue to your own personal despicable prejudices on many other issues, which I would dare nor care to explore.
The only reason I am wasting time with your negative vibes, is to provide a mirror of your own values and soul, which I whole-heartily disagree.
I shared my values, based upon my personal experiences, and you offered nothing but hypotheticals and negative answerers and frankly
without direct insight and experiences.
We all must do our jobs correctly and professionally regarless of our trade. To serve people with honor and respect, is exactly what we get as the reward. Serve others, as you would wish to be served. This is so simple.
With answers like your's, the measure of a half full or half full glass, you neither have the glass or the water to even measure.
You want positive, be positive, it's this simple.
Take it, however you want it Bill.
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Hal:
You wrote:
I am sorry, but correct me if I am wrong, I had not read your experiences (pleasant or otherwise) attempting to board any air flight... (true?).... I shared my values, based upon my personal experiences, and you offered nothing but hypotheticals and negative answerers and frankly without direct insight and experiences.
If you refer to my above post of 10/1, you will read:
On my last trip with the Further, they let me bring it on the outbound flight, but made me gate check it on the way back. My advice is to try your darnedest to carry on the instrument, but be prepared to gate check.
I am certainly not the only one here espousing an opinion that the airlines can't be relied on to let you carry on an instrument, though, admittedly, I may be attempting to throw in a little more humor than most.
Under the circumstances, your above post is inaccurate, inappropriate, and uncalled for.
Bill, tgo
(Message edited by lbpesq on October 04, 2008)
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Bill, I am glad you are still amused with the Hendrix guitar sacrifice threads, I left on your mind.
Although you are still reaching to find a stable and suitable foundation to find fault with my position on this thread; attempts to introduce another issue(s) from another thread(s) are weaken when the issues are totally different.
Its silly Dude, and your execution of funniness is also weak, to say the least.
I want to laugh, but I am laughing at how hard you are trying to be funny. LOL!!!
Chill out, go and pick up your Alembic and take your doctor's prescribed med's and be thankful your doctor is also someone you must trust as well.
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Devon, if knowing the rules is helpful, then you should know the rules. The rules that Hal has been espousing are incorrect. I point to my earlier posts and defy any one of you to locate and publish a link to a single airline regulation that says that an instrument the size of an Alembic guitar or bass is within the carry-on size limitations. Writing that they are specifically allowed when they aren't isn't sharing experiences. It isn't helpful knowledge. It is irresponsible drivel. If Hal wants to say that he has experience carrying a bass onto a plane, that's great. If he wants to give tips on sweet-talking flight crews, fine, he'll get no argument from me.
My summary of this entire thread as it relates to general air travel reads as follows:
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The TSA will let you carry a guitar through a security checkpoint. Their published rules confirm this.
The airlines may let you carry your guitar onto the plane, but they may not. Musical instruments in general are on their lists of allowed items, but all Alembic guitars and basses exceed the size limits for every major airline. In spite of this, a guitar or bass in a gig bag will fit in almost every planes overhead compartment. On many planes it could also be stowed in the coat closet. It's up to the gate staff and flight crew to make a final decision.
In addition to crew attitudes, which airport, which airline, what plane, and how full it is can factor into that decision. So can the way you behave when trying to get your guitar onto the plane. One professional musician said that he tries to carry the bag with the neck going up the inside of his arm so that it looks like a briefcase when going through the gate.
If your guitar is not allowed into the cabin, you can either gate check it, or not get on the plane. Reported incidence of damage for gate-checked instruments in gig bags is very high.
Calls to airlines generally confirm all of the above and result in equivocal answers. There are no reports of any such conversation resulting in a guarantee that the guitar would be allowed on board.
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What additional info would be helpful? The best thing I could hope for is an escalation path for the request. One thing is for sure, I wouldn't try any of this at the last minute.
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Bob, here it is, in writing:
http://www.aa.com/aa/pubcontent/en_US/travelInformation/baggage/carryOnAllowance.jsp (http://www.aa.com/aa/pubcontent/en_US/travelInformation/baggage/carryOnAllowance.jsp)
Small musical instruments may be carried onboard the aircraft providing they meet existing carry-on size requirements and fit in the overhead bin or under the seat in front of you. Case dimensions may not exceed 45 linear inches (width + length + height), EXCEPT for guitars which may be brought on board only if they can be safely stowed in an overhead bin or approved stowage location in the cabin.
So, what I have been trying to tell you is that that there *is* a specific size rule, but guitars are an *exception* to this rule. Again, that's the rule for AA: if under size or member of exception (which guitars are explicitly stated as being one) then OK, else not OK. Of course the caveat is the crew has the final say.
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Hal:
I sincerely apologize if I offended you with my post. None was intended. However, I am not reaching to find a stable and suitable foundation to find fault. You flamed me, specifically stating that I had not posted any personal experience with flying with an instrument upon which to base my opinion. You invited me to correct you if you were wrong. You were wrong. I corrected you. I didn't have to reach to do it. It is right there in black and white. Personal attacks are not appropriate on this site.
Bob:
Excellent summary. May I suggest two more points:
First, in my experience a hard guitar shaped case, like a Les Paul or ES335 style case (or a Calton case) will fit in the overhead of many planes. I have carried such cases on board in the past. A rectangular hard case, like a Strat case or standard Alembic case, probably won't fit in the overhead compartment.
Secondly, it seems to me that the coat closet storage you refer to has been dissappearing from planes over the last few years. I remember well being able to sweettalk a compassionate stewardess into letting me put my guitar there in the past. More recently I found that the planes I fly (both short hop and cross-country) no longer have such a closet. I don't know if this is due to 9/11 or economic pressures (more seats?), but it does seem to be the case.
Bill, tgo
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coat closet storage depends on the situation. If you see a person in a wheelchair waiting to get on the plane, then you're screwed. The rest is dependent on the crew since they use it too.
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Bill,
You've notice the same thing I have about the closets. In the 70's I don't recall getting on a plane of any type with out having a coat closet just inside the front door. There also seemed to be another set between upper and lower class. Oops I mean 1st class and coach since we are not supposed to discuss politics. :-) Back in those days it was fairly easy to take my JB on board as it took up less closet space than most suit bags. From what I have seen and heard talking to folks in the industry (mostly my father) the shift has been to remove non-passenger carrying space in order to add more seats and try to make the flights profitable. As far as I know the trend to remove non-passenger space started somewhere in the 80's mostly for economics. I'm not sure of the factors today but up through the 90's a plane usually had to be 50%-75% full to break even.
Keith
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Bill, I am sorry as well for not reading as throughly as I should, this is why I said correct me if I am wrong... No harm done, and yes, I am very aware of the rules here, this is why I like it here.
This site is a classy site with many intelligent people from all walks of life. I mean this whole heartily.
I am always open for corrections, if my ideas fails myself and others especially. I don't mind looking at myself at all.
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Last post for me (in this thread).
I just want to re-iterate one very important point:
There are no objective standards as to whether your guitar will be allowed on any commercial airline in the United States. I can't speak to international, except to say that international flights are more forgiving in general.
The most important thing to understand about flying is that everyone you meet (i.e. TSA, gate attendants, flight attendants) has authority over you and your bags. They can require you to check them. As I mentioned earlier, I saw someone kicked off a flight (you are not getting on this flight!, accompanied by tearing the customer's ticket into pieces) for asking an impertinent question.
If a flight attendant decides that your bag will be checked/that it does not fit in the overhead, you will either check it, or not fly at all. All they have to say is: I don't feel it is safe to allow this, and the airline, TSA, and police will back them completely, regardless of the reality, corporate policy, etc.
Just to establish my bonafides: I'm a frequent flyer, I have in excess of 500,000 lifetime miles, and frankly, have been there and done that.
I may come off as having an attitude, but please understand my thinking: I would not wish to see anyone's precious instrument destroyed, and I consider the risk to be very much in excess of the reward.
Just for additional reference, due to my frequent flyer status, I'm usually one of the first people on the plane, and have a tendency to people watch. I've seen several guitars be forced to be checked (at least gate-checked), and fewer that actually made it on (mostly Martin backpacker type).
If the flight is not full, your chances are better, but there isn't any reliable method of determining whether the flight will be full. If the prior flight gets canceled (which is more and more common due to lax maintenance and wanting to have full flights (i.e. if you have two half full flights within a few hours of each other, you can rest assured that the first flight will be canceled due to mechanical issues or some such)).
I've done risk analysis. Here's a basic formula for analyzing risk:
(probability that something will happen) * (effect of that happening) = actual risk
Let's fill in some samples:
If there is a 10% chance that your $5000 instrument will be destroyed:
.1 * 5000 = $500 risk, every time you get on a plane.
Now, there are strategies to deal with this, like insurance. But your insurance will not pay if the item was improperly packed. The airline will not pay the $2500 (IATA regulated) baggage insurance, because it was improperly packed. (We're assuming gig bag, right?)
The only way to get insurance to work is to make sure the item is properly packed, which means ATA approved flight case.
The other thing that is unstated here are values above dollars, which also work for this equation, but not in the mathematical sense. If for instance, you were traveling with your beloved pet, from whom you could not imagine being parted, the effect could be considered infinite, i.e. there is an infinite amount of actual risk attached, regardless of the chance. In the business world, the effect would typically be we cease to exist.
The other interesting part about risk management is that oftentimes there are no good (or even acceptable) answers. C'est la vie!
I apologize if my earlier responses were emotional, or contained attitude. I'd just hate to see it all end in tears.
Bradley
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Bradley:
I dig your attitude, man!
Bill, tgo
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Strange Times we're living.
Since security issues forbid you to carry on a simple nail clip on your flight (as you could hijack an airplane with such dangerous weapon!), what can you argue?
Sometime ago a Brazilian Paraglider returnig to Brazil from USA was arrested just for being sarcastic about the excessive staff's concerns on the check in.
After making him open all his luggage and after opening the entire parachute on airport's lobby (!), they kept retaining him with lots of questions. Affraid of loosing his flight - and irritated - he simply said:
- Yes, you are right: This bunch of fabric is not what it seems, it's a Bomb!.
He said that expected laughs, funny guy. He kept arrested 3 months and got deported with a warning:
- Don't ever mess with Amerika, boy!.
Sad Times we're living. You must be comprehensive, a terrorist could kill everyone in the Plane with a Bass Solo!
This is why I always use a Flight Case...
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Well, I was considering bringing a flight case, but the size limitations are pretty intense. For Frontier, it's $75 for anything over 62 linear (W+H+L) inches. For AA it's $150! Not even my G&G case for my brown bass is under 62: it's 68.
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I used to use The Clam case (http://www.casextreme.com/madels_pages/custom_made.htm) to fly with my acoustic. Way over the size limits - called for a $100 charge with American. I checked it and the rest of my luggage at curbside with the sidewalk luggage guys and tipped them $20. I was never charged the $100 oversize fee.
Bill, tgo
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is gate checking a way to avoid oversize fees?
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I can't answer that one as all of these fees are fairly new or at least the enforcement of them is.
Keith
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its been mentioned before, i would get insurance, or, as a plan b, have a gig bag and a case, so if you have to put it in the hold, you can go to your car and get the case.(sorry if this sounds stupid, just a idea)
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Yeh, but as per the new fees (as mentioned before), does this mean that I will have to pay $75 every time I gate check it in the case?
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Hmmmm, I wonder if I should unbolt the neck of my Stingray and bring that carry-on
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thats an idea!
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Buy an Ashbory.
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This has been a very interesting thread. The Alembic family is, really that, a family. There are disagreements, arguments, and even insults. But in the end; everyone seems to come together in peace. I am new to this family, but I truly feel the love. I wish the world could be more like this: tolerant, understanding, respectful, and forgiving. Juggernaught were you really ever planning a trip? Or did you just start this thread to generate some lively discussion? You succeeded with the latter. By the way, one individual can make or break your travel plans. Anyone with any authority perceived or real can effectively alter your flight plans. I have experienced this first hand. However, Frontier Airlines gets a good report card from Perseus, LLC their DIP: We are impressed by Frontier's excellent employees and friendly customer service, as well as the numerous product characteristics that distinguish Frontier from its competitors. Industry data supports our conclusion that when given a choice, the majority of coach travelers prefer Frontier over the competitive options, Brian Leitch, Senior Managing Director of Perseus. With that said, maybe they will go out of their way to accommodate their customers. I know that this unsolicited information, maybe someone will find it helpful.
Peace to you all
Uncle Carl
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No, I'm really going on a trip (tomorrow, actually). I've decided to perform an experiment: I'm going to unbolt the neck of my stingray (are there any issues with this?) and put it in my gig bag. I'm going to see if i can get through like that. If not, i will fold the gigbag along with the neck. This was I will have a better reference wrt Frontier without putting any of my basses at risk.
-devon
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Devon:
Cool experiement. Be sure to give us a report on the results. I can imagine one potential problem with this method, unless you are also sending some luggage underneath. If you are only bringing carry on bags, the airline may not let you bring a screwdriver on board, (that you'll need to put it back together). A couple of years ago I was flying with my Hofner Shorty (small travel guitar) and, after putting it through the x-ray machine, they made me pull out the truss rod adjustment tool and leave it behind. I guess they didn't want another of those pesky take this plane to Cuba or I'll adjust your truss rod - by the way, does it go clockwise or counterclockwise? situations.
Bill, tgo
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yeh, i definitely thought about that. that's why i'm going to take it apart before i go to the airport and then pretend that its one piece when i get there.
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I suspect there will be tools at the family homestead when he gets there, Bill.
I appreciate that some airlines do have a we will allow guitars of any size if they fit in the overhead rule, but I'm not sure your experiment will provide you the information you describe. Since so much is left up to the discretion of the gate and flight crews, I wouldn't bet on one or two experiences providing a picture of what will always happen going forward. On top of that, how full the flight is can alter the picture.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're planning to do with the strings or any internal wrapping, but you might want to put a thin foam or bubble wrap on the neck and body inside the bag. I wouldn't want the neck, body and strings moving separately inside the bag to create scratches or worse.
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Bob: what I can do is provide any factors/variables that I find important at the time: airline, airport, mood of the staff, fullness of flight, time, etc.
thanks on the bubble wrap idea. I will certainly do something like that.
-devon
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Marginally 'on topic'. While I was waiting for some glue to dry yesterday I caught 10 minutes of 'Airline US' on the box. in the scene I saw, a lady traveller was deemed by the check in staff to have had 1 too many to drink so she was told she couldn't fly that day. At this point she became very abusive and ended up getting herself arrested (for swearing at the check in girl) and spent the night in a cell. Just goes to prove the comments above regarding the powers of any member of airport staff.
Graeme.
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I think Uncle Carl hit it on the head respect - it is a rare commodity in today's world.
Respect here (this group), respect at the airport, respect on the roads,,, everywhere - we need more of it.
F.Y.I. Uncle Carl - tolerant, understanding, respectful, and forgiving kinda describes what a good bassist is!!! ;-)
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Bill,
While screwdrivers used to be banned (and the liquid variety still are, if they are over 100mL ), they are now allowed by the TSA, provided they are less than 7 inches in length.
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm (http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm)
The airline does not check your bags (but can!), so as long as you're not carrying in the open, you should be good to go once you make it through TSA.
Bradley
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Well, didn't get to try the experiment... the bag wasn't going to fold in the event of having to do so...
I did get to go to planetbass and try some sweet basses though. The MKs were probably the best looking basses I'm ever seen: the layers on the cocobolo one were amazing and the spalted maple topped one was just beautiful. Both sounded superb. The fretless massacar ebony essence was probably the best sounding fretless I've ever played.
Also got to try out a Fodera emperor deluxe (my first Fodera). Very impressive.
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What a great posting! Better than the news or some soap opera. I believe the intensity of those posting will drive the information listed much deeper into those who read it than bland listings at the airlines and TSA sites. I did enjoy reading this thread.
BTW: I use flight cases exclusively, as my basses are worth the added hassle of their weight and bulk to me. To each their own. Flying has changed soooo much in the last decade that I refuse to fly any more. Moo!
Side Note: don't forget to lock the latches
I am sure Keith means to make sure the latches are closed. However, if your latches do have locks on them, do not lock them, unless TSA has pre-checked the case and sealed it. TSA has the right to do so, and they will, take a crow bar and open your case for inspection. No flight case is TSA proof, if TSA wants to open it . . .
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Thomas,
My comment about locking was in regards to the gate check. At that point you have been through TSA checks and the bag goes straight down to the luggage hold. Of course you could just put some strapping tape over the latches without locking them to be sure they don't accidentally pop open.
Keith
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I just got back from Key West where I went for a week to attend the NORML Legal Seminar. Having got my (new to me) '53 D-28 back from the luthier the day before Thanksgiving (after being there for 25 months), I really didn't want to leave it at home, so I brought it with me. No problem carrying it through security to the gate. (I had it in a Calton Deluxe case, so no worries if it had to go underneath). Once on the plane to Miami (767) I discovered it wouldn't fit in the overhead. A flight attendant took it from me and put it in a closet in the 1st class area. I picked it up from there at the end of the flight. Coming back I was also allowed to carry it on where it fit easily in the overhead on a 757. No problems either way. I go and spend a small fortune on the Calton case and it turns out I could have used a mere gig bag! (Of course, if I had tried a gig bag, they undoubtedly would have made me check it - Murphy's Law).
Bill, tgo
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I'm late to a long and interesting thread here, but just in to say what Bill said- 1st class coat rack. Works everytime for me (that's about twice, btw), for basses in hard cases, and longish fishing rods. It is always, of course, a crap shoot. Gotta convince the stewardess you're a rock star.
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Bill!
How did the NORML seminar pan out?
My understanding is that the federal government is starting to let state legislation handle the 'medicinal' use laws and not getting involved as much anymore.
A 1953 Martin D-28! Bet she's a beaut and probably sings like tomorrow will never come. Got any pics?
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Paul:
Key West was, as always, a blast. Classes from 9-2, then free time, playing music, eating, and having a great time!
As for the feds and medical cannabis, I'll believe it when I see it. Obama called for decrim a few years ago. That changed when he ran for president. Early in the campaign, speaking in front of college students, he said that he would have the DEA leave medical cannabis alone in states where it has been legalized. In the latter part of the campaign he seemed to shy away from that position. Now he is appointing longtime drug warriors to key positions. I'm not encouraged, to say the least.
The Martin, on the other hand, is pure joy! When I found it in the summer of 2006, it was quite beat up. Cracks in the top, no pickguard, loose braces, a PLYWOOD!!!! bridgeplate, etc. We had to take the back off, replace the bridgeplate, stabilize the cracks, reglue braces, then replaced the bridge and fingerboard and refinished the back and sides. It was well worth it as this guitar has the straightest, narrow grained Brazilian rosewood you can imagine. It sounded great even when it was beat up. 25 months later, and I'm in love! What a beautiful tone. I didn't think about posting pics as I'd expect only minimal interest in acoustic guitars around these parts, but maybe I'll take some this weekend.
Bill, tgo
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Pictures of that Martin, please! A guitar is a guitar, isn't it? Especially one that's been given a new lease on life....
-JP
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I second JP on the pictures, Bill - the first guy I worked sound for full-time had a '53 D-28, and, while my taste generally runs more to 000s than dreadnaughts, I'd take one of those in a heartbeat - it was one of the amazingly drool-worthy guitars I've ever come across.
Peter
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O.K. I'll take some pics this weekend and post them in the miscellaneous section.
Bill, tgo