Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: basstard on June 22, 2009, 06:58:21 AM
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Hey there fellow Alembicians,
There probably have been threads on this very topic but I couldn't find one. So there goes.
As I've written here once, I recorded an album last year, using 2 Alembic basses: an early Essence 5 (maple-bodied) and an Epic 4 - the latter for only one song (but it was still very useful). Both the studio owner and the sound engineer complimented the sound - they especially praised the evenness of response throughout the fingerboard and string-to-string consistency. They also loved the sound itself. It was one of the best, most renowned studios in Poland. However, last Saturday, during BassDays Warsaw, I came across a sound engineer who said he hated Alembics and only seemed to accept Fender basses as studio tools (he also slacked Music Man and Spector basses which I happen to like too). He mentioned Alembics' (as well as most other hi-end ntb active basses') dead midrange and lack of resonse to articulation. As a proof, he demonstrated his old Jazz Bass which was a lovely sounding bass indeed. OK, I agree with one point - the Jazz Bass is probably the most sensitive to articulation of all basses. However, I've noticed Alembics sit in the mix beautifully while the guy clamed otherwise. He said that Alembic basses are only good for slap solos, and that's all.
I've also heard many stories about producers and recording engineers demanding P- and J-basses to be used during sessions. I'm not saying these are bad basses - I'd love to have a good old P-bass myself, not only is it and icon, it also has a sound that's hard to substitute in specific situations - but there is much much more to the world of beautiful bass tones than just Fenders...
So, the question is: what were your experiences in recording studios? Have you ever heard a producer tell you to put the Alembic back into the case and pull out a Precision or a Jazz? And have you ever met anyone claiming that Alembics suck?
I admit - that guy made me rather nervous as he didn't listen to my arguments (Jimmy Johnson, John Entwistle etc plus my own studio experience)... I'd love to hear about your experiences.
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I've heard that engineers pull the 'must use a fender' card because they're either too lazy or inexperienced to mess around with the EQ enough to get a good sound from anything else. As the artist, you have the right to play your music on the instrument that best captures the idea you have in your head. In my (admittedly)limited recording experience, the engineers have all been very complimentary of the Alembic tone once they've tweaked the desk.
Graeme
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I've been in the studio recently (still am actually, were doing the mixdown now) and the engineers never heard of Alembic. They were extremely surprised when they heard them for the first time and keep complimenting me (one of the best bass sounds they recorded according to the Chief engineer, I brought and used both my Spoilers)
Engineers who keep demanding Fenders should go firetruck themselves and realize they are lazy firetrucks (imho)
In any situation for me it will be either an Alembic or another bass player, Alembics make the band sound better in my humble opinion.
Anyone interested in the recordings can send me an e-mail with Alembic in the subject line and I will send the mp3's (Metallica songs: Sad but true '88 Spoiler and Ride the Lightning '83 Spoiler with heavy distortion)
(Message edited by fc_spoiler on June 22, 2009)
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It totally depends on who is paying who. If it's your band and you are paying the bill, then you decide which bass to use. If you are a hired gun and whoever is paying the bill insists on a Fender, then you play the Fender.
Many times it is simply a matter of economics. Because they see so many, the engineers should know exactly how to set up for a great sound on a Fender and can do so very quickly. It may (probably will) take them longer to get a good sound from your Alembic, simply because they don't do it very often.
If someone values the quality of the Alembic sound, they will pay for the extra set up time. If they don't, then they shouldn't have to pay for it.
Just my opinion...
Loch
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fc_spoiler:
I am 98.9 percent sure that Jason recorded the black album with a Spector Bass and went on tour with the alembics. But I have to confirm, I have an old guitar magazine from September or October 91 were Jason commented on that. That magazine is at my parents house when I have the chance I can make a scan for you. Also A year and a half in the life of metallica seems to confirm this, I saw the whole video looking for images of his alembics and the first half doesn?t show alembics, just the second half :-)
Also, sorry for the off topic
(Message edited by robertodiazj on June 22, 2009)
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I would love to have that scan ;-)
I think he used more basses, there are some huge differences in the sounds (listen to the Guitar Hero tracks)
Sandman and Wherever I may roam must be the Spector bass (distinctive sound) The Unforgiven sounds a lot like Alembic, but I've been told it's a vintage '57 Precision... Hard to tell...
There are Alembics (at least two) in the studio, look closely ;-)
In the vid of Nothing else matters you can see a black cone shaped headstock and the Elan 5 can be seen clearly. At the first line of the lyrics (So close, no matter how far) Jason is playing the Elan, most of the time it's on a stand. In the Year and a Half vid, @ the part where they show the bass recording of Nothing else matters, you can see the Elan 5 clearly on a stand behind Jason with it's original JPJ configuration.
Also remarkable, though possible gear owned by the studio and not used for the Metallica recordings: Huge amount of Trace Elliot bass gear...
Some day I will talk to Jason and tear the info till the last detail out of him :-)
(Sorry for the off topic...) (http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/66555.gif)
(Message edited by fc_spoiler on June 22, 2009)
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I have had a home studio for some time now. The first SEVERAL times I tried to record with an Alembic, it just wasn't happening. I had all of my presets adjusted for my Jazz or Music Man and the tone with the Alembic was HORRIBLE!!! After spending a LOT of time working with my Alembics, I finally came to the realization that I was fighting the nature of the instrument. While I was trying to make it sound like a Jazz or Music Man, the tone of an Alembic is just fundamentally different (to my ears anyway). I should have just let the tone be what it was. But since the tone didn't match the one in my head, it caused me a LOT of frustration. I can only imagine what an engineer might think upon hearing one for the first time... probably a love them or hate them situation. If someone else is paying the bill, there is really no time to reacclimate the engineer's ears. I guess my point is that if you (or whoever) have a specific tone in your head, use the instrument that will get you there with the least amount of muss and fuss. That's why most of us own so freaking many guitars.
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I simply hate when someone says something's crap simply because they don't like it...
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I'm no pro, and what limited studio experience I have is me playing my music, on my dime, my time. To further make the point that I'm talking out of my rear end, I don't think I've recorded on anything but an Alembic (or RT Renaissance) since high school, so I really have no basses (heh) for comparison.
Having said all that, I think Alembics are pretty incredible for an amateur hack like me, because I can go direct into anything and it sounds great, like an Alembic. I go right into the board, or audio interface as the case may be, and I have total control over the bass from the bass. And it always sounds great (the tone, that is. The playing is another story). The less stuff between the bass and the tape the better, for me anyway. The engineers I've worked with have all thanked me for making things easier, giving them more time to make sure the drummer's 18 mics are all in the perfect spot, and the guitar player has the right combination of vintage tube, modern solid-state, mic'ed, direct, dry, wet, whatever.
Same with live- playing in NYC, where you never know what backline you're gonna find, it's so great to have a bass where I can just set everything flat on the head, turn the eq off, whatever, and the bass is gonna be alright. Gives me more time at the bar.
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I would never drive my street bike on roads designed for dirt bikes.
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I just listened to Flip's new mp3's. Very good recorded sound!
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I've used my JPJ several times in various recording studios and always get nothing but high praise for how great it sounds.
Anyone who insists on using nothing but a P or J bass is lazy and/or stupid.
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My story goes like this..
My first recording experience was with my 4001 Rick. The engineer hated it and said it was too hard to get a good sound out of them. (I didn't get into the Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, etc.. argument with him) I knew I needed a good recording bass and that's where the Alembic comes in. I have used this on countless sessions since and it always sounds amazing and needs very little if any EQ'ing. A good tube preamp into the board and the bass controls set flat and wahlah! Sheer Excelence!! I do have an old Jazz and an old Precision that have been used when requested for specific projects because they do have their sound which is cool, but the Alembic sounds good on everything. Our producer Sylvia Massy loves the Alembic and is amazed by the tone and how well it records. Oh yea, and if I know I have to play on someone else's amp at a gig I always take the Distillate. It makes any amp sound better!
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Just listened to Flip's MP3s. What an excellent Bass sound and so obvious that it's not a fender ;-) The whole band sound very tight too. Well worth a listen if you haven't mailed Flip already.
Graeme
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Ha! Rockin' my office at 8 am on a Tuesday. Awesome. Dig this from Flip: Spoiler tuned ADGC (one step below the low strings of a 5-er). Do you use a 5-str set (ie a 130 or whatever B) and tune it down? How does that play, not too floppy?
I'm a Metallica fan from a young age, dug the material, and good playing, you guys nail it. Good work on the vocal harmonies on SBT as well.
If you ever want a couple laughs, check out these guys:
beatallica.org (to hear the tunes search Beatallica at Youtube)
Basically a mash-up of The Beatles and Metallica, a laugh riot. The Thing That Should Not Let It Be and Blackened in the USSR- too funny. And the singer is a dead ringer for Hetfield, in an overstated, parody sort of way.
Ok, sorry to derail the thread (man I have a habit of that. Stream of consciousness over here).
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HI Guys! I have experienced many times when engineers do not want to see an Alembic in the studio. This does not mean that the bass don?t work. In my experience its quite much a psychological thing. Hard core Rockers want to see a beaten up Fender bass. They do listen with their eyes. I have many stories about the subject but here is one;
There was a guitar player who was really old school he insisted passive basses for this session no active bullshit basses because he hates them. The guy was behind the mixing desk and asked me to play my Jazz Bass. He could then make the bass sound the way he did prefer it to sound.
After a few minutes of playing the Jazz Bass he asked me to stop playing and leave it there, now the sound was really good, it was amazing?. It was just what he was looking for! What did you do he asked? Well, I did put the active electronic on??? I did answer! I do not want to embarrass anyone but I really did enjoy this??.
Having active electronics does not mean that you have to boost the high end to the max every time you play. I guess this is what most people think, who hate active electronic in a bass. To me there is a place for everything that is good?..
Alembic basses happen to be one of the few high-end basses or any basses where you really have equally all the frequencies available not only high and low end. The articulation is great on Alembics too the only problem is that if you make a mistake everybody can hear it; with Fenders you might get a way with it.
But yes Jarek with Alembics you can also go wrong the whole way I have experienced that too. You just have to watch out and know your equipment.
But in general Alembics are the basses of all basses that cuts through the best everywhere from studios to live performances, if that is what you are looking for.
Fender basses are good too? nice sound like is Fodera, Ken Smith and many more basses out there.
You also have to remember that for many engineers the bass guitar is not the most important thing in a session. They usually spend one minute for the bass sound at most, so you better be prepared and make it right the first time because you will not get a second chance. In this way Fender is a good choice because everyone knows how it sounds. But if you know your Alembic it kills everything!! OK you know what I mean??..
If you have the time listen to the track New Song on my myspace page www.myspace.com/janolofstrandberg (http://www.myspace.com/janolofstrandberg) its maybe not that special today, it was recorded more than 10 years ago but I think there is enough midrange in the bass sound. It was recorded with an Alembic Signature Bass.
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Jan-Olof! I'm so happy you replied in my thread :-) You're a true virtuoso and it's a great honour for me that you took your time to share your experiences in this thread.
Coming back to my conversation with that Alembic-hating engineer guy, he was trying to explain everything to me using frequencies, wave curves and so on and so forth - I understood nothing of that. He also said that Music Man basses sound dead and are useless most of the time (I regret not asking him what he thought about Tony Levin or Gail Ann Dorsey...) and generally seemed to try to prove his point with all means available. Funny thing - he loves SWR amps which I happen to hate... ;-)
Is there a point to engage into discussion with such people at all?
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most producers only wanna hear 'BASS' not clarity/tone ....................i even had a band leader bring (his) fender Bass & told me to "PLAY ONLY THIS BASS TONIGHT!!!!"
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/66602.gif)
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/66603.gif)
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/66604.gif)
..............Sonofabich!! (Message edited by serialnumber12 on June 23, 2009)
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Insurance companies running Hospitals...
is like Producers, controlling Music...
The people want the best care, and the best sounds possible!
It time for Doctors and Musicians to fight the power!
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Any system that champions mediocre will eventually parish.
By joining this club, and other music groups keep us grounded in producing a culture that is based on quality.
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Most of the time it?s a question of how you use your equipment. I used to play Music Man basses besides of my Fenders in the late -70\s and early -80\s. Music Man is a great bass specially the old ones. This because the pickups and wood was better then (old Rock Maple on necks) but the new ones are OK too not as solid but OK. I did use flatwounds on some of my Music Man basses to get the midrange strong.
Music Man and SWR have the same kind of V shape philosophy for the basic sound. I like them both but do not use either of them today and am not planning to use them either.
Louis Johnson got a great Music Man sound on Michael Jackson?s ?Off The Wall? album, really strong and solid.
What a real engineer really should do is serve you and make the best of what you happen to plug in. A great producer should be getting the best out of the band and musicians in the studio not changing their style or sound too much but help them to sound good and make them relax.
But we have to be realistic too the producer produces and we are listening and trying to do our very best.
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As an interesting side note, this type of situation is what made Victor Wooten switch from Alembic to Fodera:
http://www.fodera.com/artists/wooten/book/bassexc.htm (http://www.fodera.com/artists/wooten/book/bassexc.htm)
Neither good nor bad IMO, but an interesting piece of history.
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In my mind a good producer will want what the player has to offer, however I too have taken both Jazz bass and Alembic on sessions only to find that producers want that 'old Fender sound' I don't think it really stands but I guess they want the security of it sounding like they expect.
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The worst is when the sound guy at the gig comes up to your amp and starts playing with the parametric EQ because the bass isn't boomy enough. What, like I have to change my entire technique so that the bass sounds like what you want? I swear half those guys are deaf as a post.
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In one session I was hired for, the producer wanted a P-bass with flat wounds. Ok so I did that. Then he asked if he could change the tones on the amp which was fine with me because I know where they are and can change them back when I leave. It was an old vintage type sound as you can guess. Weeks later he called me back to re-record my parts because his sound didn't work so well. What ended up on the record was the Alembic and the sound I have set up on my SVT. SWEEET :-)
P.S. Random sound guys DO NOT get to change my amp settings!
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One of the worst of these stories is, of course, a Phil Lesh story. It's in Blair Jackson's Grateful Dead gear book (a must read for any music gearhead).
The producer of Terrapin Station -- Gary Lyon? -- describes the Alembic Phil was using on those album sessions (either Big Brown or Mission Control) as sounding like a piece of clothesline nailed to a board. Makes fun of Phil for saying it's low impedance, then asks if he has a Fender.
(Message edited by llobsterbass on June 23, 2009)
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I have been on both sides of this fence and could write volumes of pages on this topic. If an engineer can't deal with the signal from an active Bass this is usually a sign of lack of experience and/or knowledge or simply lack of the equipment to derive a useable signal.The later being true for a direct in . Some times you just need to experiment with combinations with the right microphone and direct In . We as GOOD Bass players also need to focus on CLEAN studio technique. Most engineers and or producers will be picky when if comes to FRET NOISE and RATTLE from the start. I do not have to tell anyone here about how sensitive our ALEMBICS are, they pick up everything we give them. Then there are of course those producers that have the dictator attitude _____and you can't tell them anything.The bottom line is that with time, a positive artist friendly attitude, thorough knowledge and the right equipment almost anything is possible, and lets not forget talent.
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Wolf, that was exactly what I was thinking...
A good engineer should be-able to take what he has to work with, and make music with everybody on board the ship. S/he must know a variety of sounds, and also been around enough to bring the best from the breed of the basses out there.(if you will...) and if they are not aware of Alembics, WTF had they been doing for the past 30+ years!!!
A good engineer should have the people and social skills required to motivate everyone (including Her/Himself) to a win-win agreement on the sound period. Ray Charles comes to mind... He owned his Masters, smart man with B_lls.
The days are gone for us depending on these yo-yo's. We have a great many resources to create what is right for ourselves, and with the Internet too -- what more can we ask besides a contract that fits your terms and conditions.
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I looked up that Alembic-hating guy - he's got really good credits... http://www.myspace.com/blazejdomanski (http://www.myspace.com/blazejdomanski)
I've found numerous interviews with him, he seems to be highly respected...
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The producer of Terrapin Station ?
Keith Olsen
Bill, tgo
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Mr Domanski also posted a picture entitled My Fender Heaven (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=372349811&albumID=0&imageID=19646907 target=_blank). So he appears to play bass himself, and seems to like Fenders a lot.
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I think the Terrapin bit is from page 175.
As for Phil Lesh, he had this really weird bass that I think was one of the first Alembics, Olsen said. It basically sounded like somebody took a washboard with a broom handle and put one piece of rope on it. But he was really into it: 'It's low impedance'. I said, 'it sounds like crap - got a Fender?' He didn't like that.
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thanks for the correction lbpesq. you're right. Gary (Lyon?) produced Go to Heaven (shudder)
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At least they were both better than Shakedown Street. How such an amazing musician as Lowell George could be such an abysmal producer I will never understand.
Bill, tgo
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Adriaan - yes, he is a very good bassist (he plays in a prog-rock band), I've heard him play. He said he's had experience with many different instruments during his years of studio work...
I don't know what to make of it, what he said kind of shook me, I feel quite uneasy now... You know, if such words came from the mouth of a random guy, of a crappy engineer with little experience, I wound't care. But if a very respected engineer/producer with years of experience (which is kind of weird considering how young he looks - but facts are facts) says Alembics (and most modern active basses, especially neck-thru) are worthless in studio...
I admit it's haunting me now.
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I think this starts to be more a question of taste and how to make things happen in the studio. I know many producers who like to make the bass sound really boomy and ?unclear? they do not want to hear a presence of the bass guitar too much??.. I still like some of their production. I think its fine with people with different taste.
The main thing is still that many musicians/producers are not aware of Alembic and all the possibilities you have with the instrument. If you do not understand something its always best to dislike it??.. That was most people do.
I think a great example of Alembics many sound possibilities are to listen to Stanley Clarke and to Jimmy Johnson both are great but sounds totally different.
The truth is that Jimmy Johnson has one of the greatest bass sounds in the world and sounds so good on James Taylor records. What is wrong with that sound?
You have also to remember that many times someone changes the Alembic to some other bass it maybe an endorsement deal.
But there is room for everyone and some real great classic bass sounds are
P-Bass with Ampeg - it just works
Stanley with his Alembic
Jaco with his Jazz bass
Anthony Jackson with his Fodera (also great with the Jazz bass in the -70\s)
And many many more???
Neck-thru basses are great in the studio if you need to hold down a note for two bars or more neck-thru are the best.
If you want to get rid of some high end, just turn off the high end from the mixer board if you do not like to listen to a big massive low-end sound just turn off the bass from the mixing board. If you think the bass sustains too much then put flatwound strings and a rubber under your strings and the bass will not sustain (this you can control with your hands as well)
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Many of us here are bass players, so of course we want to sound A) as good as possible, and B) the way we want to. But from the point of view of the general public, as well as record companies and producers, bass is probably pretty low down on the list. In the case of Keith Olsen, he probably already has an idea of what kind of bass sound works for him, and that's what he expects - no room for experimentation, why reinvent the wheel when we know a P-Bass will work, etc. I wonder if he listened to any live Dead tapes during the preparation for the album? Bass sounds pretty damn good to me.
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I've had my Alembics in the studio a few times and usually get the same reaction, a roll of the eyes and will you play our bass?. To which I reply, give me 1 take and if you don't like what you hear I'll switch. Hadn't had to switch yet.
OO
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Hey friends,
I've been out of touch but I'll jump in here too. Thanks to Jan-Olaf for the nod.
It's true, our instruments are not for everybody or maybe every situation but most great engineers will at least give it a listen! Of course, if they already know everything then why try anything new? Saying that all active basses are bad is like saying you will only record violins made in Italy...
My experience has been that if an engineer will give it a listen they generally like what they hear. Comments like I'm not doing ANYTHING to your bass, no compressor, no EQ, nothing! Or as Holdsworth tells me Unlike everybody else's bass, on yours if I twist the knob at 6k - there is SIGNAL up there!
But that's just it, the sound of an Alembic is very wide-band compared to say a Fender which is quite narrow. If the music has room for it, then the Alembic (in my opinion) is the greatest. But many engineers simply don't want to give the bass that much space. And you might argue that if a bass tops out at 900hz then you can turn it up louder in the track without effecting the mix...
Open-mindedness applies in both directions. Saying Alembics are the only basses of value is the same as saying all active electronics are bad. An Artist or producer hiring us has the ultimate say about what they want in their track. When hired as a sideman we are not the Artist and need to be open to trying new things just as we expect them to be.
Most people who call me know what they're getting but if the engineer wants to mic a B-15 I'll plug into it and try to give him what he wants (even if he is just trying to make it sound like a Fender). If I get a call for say library music from the 1960's and 70's I'll explain that I only own Alembics so if they want a particular vintage bass sound I would be happy to play whatever bass THEY provide. I've done that and it can be fun. I do a pretty lame McCartney imitation. Ha!
There are ways to make an Alembic sound bad. I think when active onboard electronics were first introduced some of the early users may have gotten a little carried away with the tone controls and shocked and confused some audio engineers. Where is all that clicking coming from? I think this is why some engineers will have an immediate allergic reaction when the SEE the bass come out of the case. Just listen to it, that's all I ask. If you don't like it we'll try something else...
Best to all,
Jimmy J
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Jimmy:
When you do your McCartney imitation, do you play left-handed? lol
Bill, tgo
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Now that's something I'd pay money to see;-) How's about getting JT to slip a beatles medley into the set next Tuesday?
Graeme
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Hello!
Ok - I am this bad guy who ?hates? Alembic and Alembic inspired ?modern? neck thru body sandwich constructions with active low impedance pickups.
After long telephone talk with basstard (this time very friendly because we believe that this discussion can learn us something and open our ears and mind) and reading all of the post I decided to write here my point of view.
Being big fun of them in the beginning of my career as an engineer after more than twelve years of working as an engineer and producer and recording a lot of material from film scoring to heavy metal (acoustic jazz fusion and indie rock and pop also) I must sadly say that those basses are not useful for more than 80% of studio work.
I am not type of lazy engineer. I used to reserve 9 to 12 track for bass guitar I tend to mix signal from different preamps miking a lot of cabinets and even tweeters. Sometimes if music call for it I even record stereo ambient pair for bass guitar. For typical session I usually hire more than ten different amps and speakers to choose from. If somebody comes to me with Alembic and said thats it is his voice I would spend same times to find combinations of recording technicques and setup to make this guitar audible in mix but 90% times it will end up with destroying or at least heavy compromise sound of other instruments...
I am not endorser of anything. I play at least 20 years old Fenders and fender inspired instruments (mostly from 70ties) because wood on those old instruments are simply better and after being played for many years it has changed its molecular structure and became more vibrant. During many years of research I never find a new instrument with tone as resonant, vibrant, sparkle and musically sounding as an old one made from the same or similar materials.
Alembic Basses are very beautiful and extremely well build thats a true. As opposite Fender mid seventies and sixties basses with I consider the ultimate tone basses were build very poor quality. They need to be refretted, sometimes You have to straighten the neck, You have to remove lacquier and papers stamps from the neck and neck pocket. Usually You also change pickups because old ones became to be very microphonic and thin sounding and also change the bridge to baddass II. Thats True. But those beautifully constructed Alembic Basses have only one problem - The Idea is bad. Alembics are constructed to be extremely wide sounding basses. It is Great idea if You play alone but it is also the worst idea if You play with the band. Many says thats Alembic is the ultimate bass for bedroom players. A lot of very experienced players sad to me that during late seventies and early 80ties they buying Alembic basses because those instruments sounded extremely wide in the shop and after some time they stop playing them and came back to fenders because fellow bandmatess and engineers said that the rhythm section lacked punch and feel.
Bass is extremely hard to mix. Every room has a different frequency response in the bass frequencies. Every speaker system also. Your mix have to be car proof and disco smile boom box proof also. It is almost impossible to mix well wide sounding instruments because every instrument need his own sonic space. Please consider in mind that classical acoustical instruments are build to be part of the team like all Orchestra instruments (they do not have extremely wide frequency range) and to be alone instruments like organs. Psycho acustics proofs as that to be well heard on all systems bass guitar need to have a lot of energy in lo mids - about 120Hz - 250 Hz and in Hi mids area 1250 Hz to 4000Hz (note clarity and definition. Our ears has ability to recreate lows when hearing to low mids (think about phone - which frequency starts at 300Hz and You recognize low male voice without a problem). Typical passive Fender Jazz has a peeks in those critical frequencies which makes this instrument easy to mix loud without stepping on anybody's heels. Thats why fenders cut through even densest mixes. Neck thru design tends to accent first fundamental frequency for example 44Hz for low E tone, bolt ons accents the harmonics (88Hz and 176 Hz for low E). In the typical mix bass drum energy is in the 40Hz to 70Hz area - so neck thru bass guitar fights with kick in the most important frequency area for kick and lacks punch and its percussiveness in lo mids area. Of course You can compensate for it playing with heavy attack. Thats why I think that Alembic neck thru are great for slapping. But to be honest I must say that slapping is last think needed for more that 90% percent of music recorded those years...
Active electronics that a bad think. The signal chain is as weak as it weakest element. You have great ears, great hands, great instrument, great pickups, and weak active buffer and great recording pre. Why ruin Your tone and dynamics with buffer amplifier made from cheap op amplifiers or transistors with +-9 volts of power when You connected Your instruments to a extremely high quality studio gear like Millennia Media Neve or Avalon made of military spec tubes resistors and capacitors with power of at least 275 Volt for tubes (with made extremely high headroom) with a great cable. It was good 30 years ago when stage equipment and cables were poor quality but things changed especially in studio... Passive electronics give You more articulation - If You do not believe me connect your instruments to auto wah or distortion pedal and after this connect a passive instrument. It is very hard to drive auto wah with active electronics because of it evenness and lack of articulation. Play line like ?come on come over? with passive every dead note is really dead with rather percussive character and lack of high and low end and not as reach in harmonic structure like ?normal? played note. With active electronics the dead note sound almost the same like normal but it is only quieter.
Typical Fender like single coil have a lot more harmonic distortion and a lot of higher resonant peak than low impedance pickup but it is not a disadvantage - because of this high impedance pickups cut through the mix a lot of better then low impedance. It is also psychoacoustics.
In my opinion Alembic family basses are great tools slappers or for soloist in small assembles who can compromise sound of the other instruments because of his ego and sound (nothing bad with this) but played with fingers they are completely useless in the dense rock or pop mix - they either disappear or made mix dull with lack of punch. Thats my point of view (and also point of view of many session and famous bass players I have pleasure and honor to work with. Of course tone is in our hands and with great player and a lot of work of engineer You can use Your Alembic in any musical situation but typical ?Fender like? bass do the job with less effort and much better results.
If You do not have great dynamics and articulation with passive fender like everybody will notice it with active Alembic You can hide it. Also with fender like bass (or stratocaster guitar) You sound like You (JPJ, Jaco, Marcus Miller, Anthony Jackson Geddy Lee and many more all sound different because passive fender like instruments are very sensitive to articulation. With Alembic it is more a sound of Alembic than the player itself. Even very different players sound similar on those basses.
Best Regards for All of You
Blazej
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I am very interested in Yours opinion in this topic especially in Your experience with using Alembic basses in dense mixes.
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Wow, Blazej, couldn't disagree with your characterization of Alembic more. My Alembics are far more responsive to my playing if I pluck near the bridge or over the end of the board as compared to the tonal variations I get from passively loaded basses. I play 95% fingerstyle rock. Bartolini guts are very good for me, and I have often found EMG stuff to be a little bit sterile, I think EMG was very popular when active stuff was hitting the streets and maybe did an awful lot to create the prejudices people have with active systems.
I don't dislike the passive tone, I just don't think you can knock Alembic. I played for years with a five piece dual guitar group and never had a problem being heard through the mix. I play with one guitarist now and cutting through isn't an issue, though I get great tone when I chord to thicken the sound on occasion while he solos. Similar lines on a passive bass often sound muddied.
Music isn't objective, so if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. Strings are a huge part of the tone as well. Alembics seem to me to be more variable in tone character based upon the strings you use. I have tried some relatively thin round or compressed strings that sound completely anemic on the top strings with awful balance. On the other hand, a string like the Chromes is very versatile and records wonderfully for a lot of styles.
When you have so much sonic range, though, everyone will know it if you suck. Passive basses are much more forgiving of mediocre chops, and maybe this factors into the whole discussion as well.
-bob
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I'm not an engineer and I have only a passing understanding of the science of sound, but I have attended hundreds of live music performances as well as spent thousands of hours playing in bands over the past 40+ years. I do have a clear perception of what I hear. In my experience the claim that passive instruments possess more clarity and punch than Alembics is ludicrous (and I don't mean the rapper). To my ears the whole definition of the Alembic sound is based on the foundation of clarity and presence. My favorite bass players (both to listen to and to play with) are the ones whose notes are clear and distinct, as opposed to those who create a low rumble that I feel more than hear. And guess what? The ones I like the best often play active basses, especially Alembics. Just my $.02
Bill, tgo
(Message edited by lbpesq on June 26, 2009)
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Blazej,
I have to disagree with your statement about active basses hiding poor technique. I have found just the opposite. With active basses and Alembic in particular you have have to excellent technique as the expanded frequency response of the active electronics shows up all of your playing problems. With passive basses the frequency response is much less so it can hide poor technique. I have recorded off and on since the 70's and went active with my Jazz Basses in the late 70's. Not only did the active tone controls open up my sound but it forced me to improve my technique due to the extended range. I can also say during this time I have never had an engineer request that I use a passive bass. Likewise since I have moved to Alembic have I have never been requested to use something different. As a matter of fact I have usually been told that the engineer likes the extended range as all of the tones are there for them to mix with later on. My typical recording setup is a direct box from the bass and a post DI from my Eden Navigator. Keep in mind also that are many recordings out there that used Alembic basses and the bass is not lost in the mix. I'm thinking the Dixie Dregs, Stanley Clarke, The Doobie Bros., etc. By the way my last band was a three guitar front plus keyboards Southern rock band and I have never had issues cutting through the mix with any of my basses. My Alembics in particular.
Many of those Fender players you mention are using active versions of the bass. I think you summed it up when you said there is a natural bump in the mid-bass with Fender's and that this makes it easier to find it's place in the mix. I believe this has been stated by others in this thread as the main reason people request you use a Fender (it can't be the dreaded dead spot at the 4th string, 5th fret :-) ).
Could part of the problem you perceive be an excessive amount of mid range scooping by a slapper. I have run into this when the person is not familiar how their instrument reacts in a group. The end result is a lot of muddy boom and a very weak high end that gets lost. I jut chalk this problem up to inexperience and try to help the person understand how to better use their equipment.
I'd like to close with the fact I do like my Jazz Bass quite a bit. When I bought my long scale Alembics it was very important to me that the necks be very close to the JB neck dimensions and feel. Personally I never have like the feel nor sound of the Precision. Does this invalidate other people liking it? No, it is just a matter of personal taste.
Keith
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IBPSQ
Please listen to the Led Zeppellin concert and records... You can clearly hear every note played on Jazz Bass period even if its tone is rather dark played fingerstyle and when JPJ switched to alembic bass guitar disappear... also compare Marcus and Stanley tone for clarity and presence. IMO Alembics have the clarity and presence when played alone or in small ensemble but it tend to disappear in dense mixes fenders sound thin like a shit when You listen to them solo but begin shine when You play with a band.
Blazej
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Blazej_domanski, If only Tina Turner could say it best... I'd say: Welcome to the Thunder Dome!
let me just say I appreciate your comments for it was extremely laughable.
I almost feel out of my chair laughing when you said:
But those beautifully constructed Alembic Basses have only one problem - The Idea is bad.
That was hilarious to read!!!!!
HA haaa haa haa haa haaha aha h ha aah ah ehh Man, you kill me!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Get him off Stage...!
Somebody call the Apollo Theater's Sand-man to get this guy off the stage... please, because I can't stop laughing LOL!!!!!
Haaa haaa eh!
That's bad, I don't like to laugh at people... I like to laugh with people...
Please for give me.
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I have used Alembics on every gig and recording since 1983. I was never directed to another instrument by an engineer. I have had some who used their usual method and had to adjust because the result was not what they were used to but I still used my basses. I've gone direct, amps, combos of tube di's, amps and direct into tape, protools, protools mixed through vintage tube boards and whatever was the fashion of the day or preference of the engineer.
Maybe I'll come up against a situation were I'm not allowed to use my instrument, but most have been very happy with the sound without doing anything to it beyond compression.
In the end it doesn't really matter what we think if you are getting paid to put your vision and stamp on a product. May you continue in your profession and reap the rewards of your craft.
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Keith H,
Passive pickups connected to the high quality tube high impedance preamplifier give You much more headroom and dynamic response and punch then buffer amplifier or active electronic, also passive instruments arent only alder palisander combination with flats rubber mute and tone control down You can go pretty agressive with maple and hard ash combination ala Marcus and Anthony Jackson.
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Blazej:
As I stated above, I believe I know what I hear. Telling me I'm not hearing what I'm hearing isn't going to convince me, or anyone. And your description of Alembic electronics as buffer amplifier made from cheap op amplifiers or transistors only serves to prove that you have never actually cracked open an Alembic and eyeballed the electronics. Therefore, your opinion is at least partially based on faulty assumptions rather than fact. Enjoy your 70's Fenders - the almost universally recognized worst of all time.
Bill, tgo
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HI Guys! Yes quite interesting to read. I know many different producers like most of us an all of them have different taste. I know producers that do not like to use bass guitars at all. I know producers that loves Fenders then there are guys that likes everything that sounds good. Everyone have their own way to do things. Staring from what recording equipment to use there are so many different choices. Its great with all this discussion about Alembics if they are OK for studio or not. But if I did understand the thing with bolt-on basses right, then upright basses are useless? too much low frequencies and classical music is probably not good at all not to mention acoustic jazz. Upright basses are not bolt-on and they do have a wide tone like neck-through bass guitars.
Metallicas black album is recorded with an active neck-through Spector Bass, the album sound great. Marcus Miller used to use passive Fenders but have been using an active bass for 20 years and sounds now much better now. He also plays a neck through active Fodera fretless and sounds good.
Anthony Jackson plays neck through Fodera and sounds great.
Richard Bona uses neck-through active Fodera and sounds great. Flea did change to passive Fender basses for a few months but then quickly changed back to active basses because he needed more tone and punch.
It has been great to read all this?..
J-O-S
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Ok, I had now collected myself...
I can't speak for Rock as a whole, but Alembic basses were choice basses and guitars for Parliament/Funkadelics during George Clinton's 70's hey-days. Rodney Skeet Curtis (Parliament-Funkadelic) was about the bass and the groove.
Knee Deep, Atomic Dog, One Nation Under A Groove, The Mothership Connection (If you hear any noise, it's just me and the boys..) Duke and Stanley also remixed this jam... Alembics and all...
The group, Rose Royce Car Wash Alembic.
Marven Isley - The Isley Brothers: Who is that Lady..., Alembic bass blasting!
Jamaine Jackson (My God Bless him and his family...) Song Let's get serious Alembic
blasting!
Legendary funk bassist Louis Johnson, Strawberry Letter 23, Brotherman, Q
...and guess who produced and engineered the album... Quincy Jones. It's pretty clear, Alembic was not turned down from his authority....
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/66708.jpg)
Also, above all the facts I presented, I own an Alembic Series I and currently have another one being made so, I speak from my own experiences and recordings that your claims are faceless.
One more thing... The bass is quintessential to Soul, Jazz, Gospel, and R&B. This why you find the best techniques for bass, comes from those genre of music. Alembics will always have a home with me as they did with Quincy Jones production of the the Brother's Johnson, and Stanley Clarke too who would probably be an even stronger authority on basses in general.
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009)
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009)
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WOW, I see a HUGE can of worms opened here. One might as well walk into a biker bar with a Honda T-shirt and yell HARLEY SUX!
Seriously though, I respect your opinion of what you prefer Blazej, but I have to agree with Keith here. I have owned and still do own several different Fenders, Alembics, Warwicks Music Man and other basses and in my 35+ years of playing and recording I find my Alembics to be far more responsive to my articulation and dynamics. I do agree with you that they do have a wider range of sound than your average passive bass but they do have filters to adjust their range.
My only complaint, if you want to call it that, about my Alembics is I can't play sloppy. As for Alembics hiding poor technique, I find the total opposite to be true. I can get away with much more sloppy playing on my Fenders and MM basses (all mid 70's models) than I can on my Alembics.
And I have NO problem what so ever getting a fat bottom end with clear destinct notes.
I am in no way trying to be arguementive here either, as I said I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it but let me add that I would in no way be so rudes as to come into your studio and rag on your gear. Let's not forget whose house we're in.
Peace, Olie Oliver
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Jos
Bass guitar is barely audible on black album. Newsted also played with a pick to cut thru and he is still less audible then Burton or Robert T. mainly fingerstyle players...
also as Jim Roberts say in the book how fender bass changed the world the fender bass changed music because it was more audible than upright.
Also consider that in acoustic jazz and classical You do not have typical huge bass drum (rock or pop) to fight (or mixed with)
IBPSQ
Please compare alembic electronics To Millennia Media Avalon UA SPL Neve or other Hi tech Studio mastering quality gear. I read a lot of Rick Turner articles and I know what is inside... 70' fenders are recognized worst of all time for build quality not for tone... those are different aspects.
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hi basstard about your comment ,two thinGs come to my mind:
your engineer have no idea of a real bass sound
and the second one is:YOU MUST LEARN HOW TO HANDLE YOR ALEMBIC BASS SOUND
REGARDS FROM SPAIN
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Blazej:
First of all, comparing Alembic electronics to a Neve board doesn't result in the Alembic system being made of cheap parts. Where did you read Rick Turner claiming Alembic uses cheap parts? Are you aware that Rick Turner has not been affiliated with Alembic for many years?
Second, your comparison missed the mark. Comparing onboard electronics to a high end studio gear? Well, if I'm playing a gig, the high end studio gear sitting in a studio somewhere is completely useless to me. You are comparing apples and oranges. I admit that an F-16 fighter jet is much faster than my Mazda Miata, but if I want to travel from Oakland to San Francisco, the Miata is infinitely more useful. And I'll match both build, playability, and tone of my '61 Strat against any 70's 3 bolt out there.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I can even understand (though I don't agree with it) your preference for Fenders. But when you make claims like Alembics aren't punchy or articulate, or that Alembics hide sloppy playing, I can only deduce that you have no experience with the instruments. One might reasonably argue that Porches are ugly overpriced cars, (not me), but when you start claiming they are slow and don't handle well, you lose all credibility.
Bill, tgo (LBPESQ)
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I'll beg to differ on the quality of components. I am an Electrical Engineer by training. In the 70's I took my Fenders and made them all active. I designed and built the preamps. For these I used all mil-standard components. These are of much higher quality and lower noise than you will ever find in non-military equipment. The frequency response and clean signal far and away beats any of the passive abilities of the original instrument. If you wish to visit I can clearly show you on a scope.
You keep on bringing up Marcus Miller. He plays active basses and has for a number of years. Stu Hamm plays Fenders but guess what? They are active basses.
You have also said the bass hides in the mix. I have pointed out several bands where the bass is up front that play Alembics. I can add more if you like. The point is it is not the instruments fault if something gets hidden in the mix. It is either the musician or the engineer/producer that is at fault. As I said before I put a lot of it on the musician not knowing how his instrument works. I can also say that the trend for guitars to drop tuning has moved them into the traditional range for bass. This causes a conflict and muddy sound.
As a last thought I expect you remember all of those great Fender bass lines from the 60's and early 70's. Many of those were doubled by an organ as the Fender Bass was not full and loud enough. By doubling on the organ it brought the bass forward into the mix.
I'm glad you like your Fenders. I like the ones I have but they are not the be all, end all of bass guitars. There are many other brands that are as good or better. My take is if you like to play Fenders do so but respect the fact that not everybody wants to. After all why would we have all of the improved Fenders such as Lakland, G&L and Fedora if the Jazz Bass was the ultimate?
Regards, Keith
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Bill
Rick do not sait that it is cheap he only said what is inside and why.
I am only saying that onboard electronic is less sophisticated and much cheaper and therefore worse sounding then high quality studio gear. Therefore to retain whole quality of instrument You should be able to hard bypass it in the studio. I have compared 60ties fenders to 70ties models (both basses and guitars and did not find difference in quality of tone I prefere 70ties models because of hard ash and maple combinations. Punch and articulation from alembics I have had in the studio disappear in the dense mix as opposite to fenders. Mayby it was problem with the examples I have (it is hard to find many alembic basses in europe ( Ive played 5 and recorded 3. But the problem persist also with almost every alembic inspired bass (sandwitch neck thru with active electronics - most of them very expensive) except pedulla pentabuzz and rickenbacker (passive but neck thru) which record well. So please write me which model of alembic is most articulate and punchy. Opinion about hiding sloppy playing is not only mine those alembic players have a lot of problems with huge dynamic range of my jazz and all articulation details and I and other fender players have no articulation problem with alembic bases. All of those alembic players were definitely much better and technically advanced musicians then me but as they said playing fenders reveal for them their articulation problems.
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Keith - but Marcus bass is still bolt on Fender with high impedance passive pickups with bartolini TCT (Bypassable of course) buffer - He have not use sadowsky from many years. If You compare new instruments I can agree that lakland G@L (mailto:G@L) or Mike Lull are far better than fenders but I do not find yet any new instrument with tone quality close to now more than 30 years old fenders. Wood was better those years and after 30 years of being played instrument do sound different. Keith if You made those onboard pre what was the power if it was 9 or even 18 volts it still would be not able to sound like studio gear especially with tube input stage.
There are many great soundings instruments but I think that alembic basses are specific tools not universal one.
Best Regards Blazej
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I find it interesting that blazej has not listed his sound mixing equipment sources, nor does he even realize which Alembic models he'd found problematic.
This is ridicules...
Funny as heck... He writes:
So please write me which model of alembic is most articulate and punchy
How bout tell everyone which Alembic models you worked with...
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009)
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I find particularly troubling that blazej confused authority over what the bass should do in the mix with what is basically a preference or expectation of what the bass should do. He obviously has his preferences, exemplified by his cherry picking of artists i think who fit that bill but ignoring the masses of other successful bassists who don't quite fit his description. I personally find my Alembic fits the role in which I like to contribute to the music almost perfectly (I think I prefer active Foderas a hair more). And I never have had any complaints from any musician about my Alembic, including seasoned professionals, particularly from those who agreed with what type of role I wanted to fill. That's why I play Alembic. Because it fits great with the way I like to mix up with the guitars, drums, etc. And I've had no problems hearing the right thing from the mix. When I switch to other types of basses I feel like I have to tiptoe around to avoid getting the wrong types of sound (too boomy, too much bass).
I think that the types of bass roles/styles that blazej is attracted to are, among other things, descendants or relatives to the beatles, led zep, metallica, maybe r&b and blues, etc. Pop rock. And I can definitely can see the advantage of that since it's pretty much the dominant culture, especially in the states. But the goodness totally subjective. But for the way I like to play the music that I play (salsa, latin jazz, jazz fusion, afro fusion) the role of the bass is fundamentally different. These different types of roles I think encourage a preference of one type of bass over the other. That is not to say that salsa bassists don't use passive, but I honestly think their approach is different (how you place notes, fills, articulation, etc).
One good example is that there are some bassists who have a fit exactly in the mix, maybe blending with the drums or guitar approach while others prefer more of a steamroller (which some consider sloppy) approach. Both can be very successful in their own right, and I'm not sure are inherently better in any particular context (ie dance vs jazz vs whatever). I honestly think that these different roles encourage different instrument usage. Not to say that bass playing is limited to these types of descriptions but i think these are at least two contrastable roles.
I might be wary of you as a producer because you might not understand where I'm coming from on the bass. You might see this as a lack of experience on my part but I really think your preference in bass (type of sound reflecting role) is arbitrary. And your derogatory bedroom players makes me think that you're even prejudiced against types of bass playing...
Another thing that's troubling about the active electronics arguments are assuming that the studio mixer has the same access to frequencies as the onboard electronics before it gets converted to the 1/4 inch signal. I'm not expert, but this sounds false. I know that's not true if you have anniversary electronics unless you have a stereo out.
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Years of solid recording - The tools of Stanley Clarke...
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/66715.jpg)
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If any instrument, be it a state-of-the-art Alembic, an 18th century upright, a pennywhistle, or obsolete technology from the 1950s with lousy build quality from the 1970s, gets lost in the mix, you don't need a different instrument - you need a better engineer.
Peter
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Listen to that bottom, yeah that's a bass.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x75e7c_the-brothers-johnson-strawberry-let_music (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x75e7c_the-brothers-johnson-strawberry-let_music)
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Blazej:
You're still arguing that Porsches are slow and sloppy handling when you try and tell us that Alembics hide sloppy playing. I've been on this site for five years and have read many many posts from people who get their first Alembic and comment that it exposes their sloppy technique. We hear over and over again from people who confess that getting an Alembic forced them to play with better technique, myself included. I do not recall even a single post where someone said the Alembic hid their sloppy technique. Your claim of such is just wrong and everyone here knows it. Please tell us how many Alembics (not other Alembic inspired basses) you've actually played, which models, and for how long. I suspect the answer is none, or almost none and for a VERY short period of time. And as for 60's Fenders, there's a HUGE difference between early 60's pre-CBS and mid to late 60's CBS instruments.
Bill, tgo
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Hi Blazej! Who talks about recording only with a big bass drum or playing with a pick? We are talking about recording Alembic in a studio in general. In studios there are usually different productions going on not only certain kind of Rock music. Its important that you mention if you are talking about a certain song where you feel that the Alembic is the wrong instrument then its OK I do understand that. But otherwise?
J-O-S
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blazej_domanski,
Alembics has its own pure and distinctive acoustics sounds even without electric power.
No other bass can do this for me.
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Well, I have to say I hear a lot of sense in much (not all) of what Blazej has to say. I've definitely had that experience when called to sessions where I'll spend an hour with the engineer trying in vain to get a tone from my Alembic which will sit well in the mix, only to end up plugging in the studio Fender. In fact, I'm sure Blazej is right that the wide-band nature of the Alembic sound makes mixing these instruments far more problematic. I've found this when doing my own home recordings - without the correct tweaking, the Alembic immediately overpowers the mix, which makes everything sound muddy and ironically ends up hiding the Alembic in the mix. Plug in a Stingray and I can just play, no tweaking needed.
But this is the crux of the matter - I'd still rather use my Alembic, now I know how to use it in the studio. I've always been of the opinion that it's better to have those frequencies available and to filter them out if necessary, than not to have them and then to have to try to eq them back into the mix artificially at a later stage. So yes, the 'problem' is that an Alembic isn't really 'just' a bass, it's a full-range instrument. If you want it to do the job of a Fender bass in a mix, you need to be careful to filter out those higher frequencies that Fenders simply don't produce. And if that's too much hassle, then you're free to just plug in your Fender or Musicman . . .
But I'd definitely disagree with Blazej about active electronics hiding sloppy technique: nothing shows up every nuance of my playing like my Alembic - every touch, every slide, a badly trimmed nail - you can hear it all on the Alembic.
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I see 3 scenarios in the studio;
1. The studio hires me to do session work for their clients in which case I would play what ever the person at the console wanted me to.
2. The artist hires me to into the studio with the in which case I would play what ever the artist wanted me to. If they put control of that in the booth then so be it, the cat at the console has control again.
3. I or my band hires the studio to record our music, or demo CD in which case I?d play what ever I wanted to play. I would politely decline any suggestion to use another instrument.
I would NEVER be rude though. I often wonder why the music industry is inundated with such rudeness. Not all but a LOT in the business can be and are very rude.
I guess I must be doing something wrong with my Alembic basses. I've had them in the Studio multiple times and never have I had a problem getting a good sound or making the engineer or producer happy.
OO
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If anyone is truly serious, and very concerned on this topic, I would give the following studios a call:
Electric Ladyland Studios in New York, and/or The Mad Hatter Studios in California. Those organizations lad many Alembic tracks and have a wider scope on sound.
Sorry, I will not be giving my man (Blazej) a call to help me, nor will I recommend him to touch the controls of any Alembic for that matter. To do so, would be disastrous, for he was honest enough to say so.
I love honesty.
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There were so many statements made in that original post by our new friend Blazej that are either: a.) completely incorrect, b.) comparing apples and oranges, or c.) misunderstanding electronics... that I'm not even going to waste my time with this anymore.
Everyone stop feeding the troll.
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Let's put this to a vote Alembicans!
Those who agree, Blazej is a Troll say I...
Those who say Blazej is not a Troll, say Nay...
Hal-
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 27, 2009)
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I agree Briant,
Hal, let's just play some music and forget about it.
I wish I was at the gathering today...oh, that's another thread. : )
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Wow, the torrance here is amazing.
This guy could say: Alembics shouldn't had never been made, and people are cool...
I asked this guy to list his recording equipment for gaining substantive facts with some references, and he produces nothing...
Yeah, I think he's a troll.
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I don't think he's a troll and his comments are certainly legitimate and valuable in their own right. But they're completely based on what I think is his own sense of what the role of the bass is. For his purposes, Fender probably fits the bill really well.
The basis for this hypothesis is my own personal experiences. I play Alembic and I never have problems making it come out in the mix (in a 11 piece Salsa band for that matter) the way I play. But I also recognize that there are bass players that play very different from me (not necessarily better), many of them who play Fenders. And it sounds great. And I'm not terribly convinced it would sound exactly the same type of good on an Alembic.
What is a bit off is the claim that Fenders are somehow more universal basses than Alembic. I know I can get Fender-like sounds from my Alembic, though certainly not perfectly, but the other way around is just not possible. The only way that you can believe in the universality of Fenders is if you have a bias for a certain type of bass player/role.
His preferences certainly are not without merit: they're more or less in line with most popular American music from the last 40 years or so. But from a musical standpoint I cannot see an inherent musical advantage to adhering to that. Only cultural/economic, such as playing with a well established band seeking that type of sound. But if you limit yourself, you limit yourself. It's best to be able to be versatile.
This similar type of thing occurs with jazz/bluegrass/salsa musicians in the old upright vs electric argument. Some people just want/expect what uprights are good at doing, despite the fact that there are innumerable electric bass players in those genres. Cuban purists would claim that the only type of bass is upright, but if Eliades Ochoa (from Buena Vista Social Club) can play with an electric bass player then it must be OK.
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I read this stuff and laugh...
Here's another Alembic Bass run... to extend the the Alembic bass vocabulary...
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN AND LEARN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWqli5cq1E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWqli5cq1E)
Why do I even CARE (sometimes I ask myself)!
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Hal:
The alembic basses I have been recorded during the years were five string series II, 4 string epic and stanley signature. My setup included: Demeter and Aguilar Tube Di SWR SM 900 Ampeg SVP Pro Millennia media Origin, NS2EQ, Alan Smart C1, fatso, LA2A, Twincom, Neve 1073 MM HV3D and focusrite red (and many more) and multi miked aguilar, Eden and SWR 4x10 or 2x10 cabinets. Most of the equipment I have been using is listed on my myspace, but I suppose You were to lazy to check Troll myspace. It was dense film score and heavy prog record. It ended that the bassplayers asked me to give them my old fender or used theirs because they were not happy with sound of their instruments after they hear my bass during direct comparison. I did my best to find great tone of alembic basses but fender still beat them. One of the guys sell his bass shortly after the session. After this I recorded rather pop acoustic ballad stuff with one of those players and alembic sound great in those kind of music.
You have to agree that most of the 70ties and late 60ties funk were recorded with fenders not with alembic basses. Even if it was used for George Clinton it is minority (about 1%) not majority of great sounding bass lines from that period. If Alembic basses were so great every serious player would smash his fender and buy alembic... but the true is that majority of bass players still prefer fender or fender inspired instruments. Also notice that some famous players and a lot of others who uses alembic basses in the 80ties slap era start to play fender those years (I have seen Mark King with a jazz bass ).
Briant misunderstanding electronics? I have been studying electronics and sound engineering for 7 years and have Wroclaw Technical Institute Diploma. Please do not treat me as a Troll because I have different opinion then yours.
I agree that alembic can be great for latin kind of music. I also plan to record basstard alembic using many setups and compare it with different basses in dense mixes. This would be very interesting. I am here because I want to be open minded and I think this discussion widening my horizons.
Bill I have been played five alembic basses 3 mentioned above for rather short period of time but I think enough time for producing an opinion. I have also played my friend 4 string essence for more than two monts, and another one (do not know the name) during music messe in frankfurt. Mayby it is not enough time for learning how to use them correctly but I have not a problem to use or record other basses for example switching from Jazz to Pbass or Pedulla Rapture and even Rick almost immediately after picking them. The main problem with alembic basses were the fact that all of them were less articulate than my maple hard ash jazz with badass II bridge and even basstard notice the difference. They also tend to sound muddy during record and live performance compared directly to my jazz
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hendrix:
If we talking about santana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmVEktTW3a4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmVEktTW3a4)
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN AND LEARN!
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If someone still thinks Alembic basses do not work properly or something I suggest that you go and buy the James Taylor DVD ?At The Beacon Theatre? listen to Jimmy Johnson?s bass sound. He plays together with a drummer with a huge bass drum and everything sounds just great. To be really honest I have never heard a better bass sound for this kind of music and it sounds as good on studio CDs.
I think that Jimmy has proved and showed us that Alembic basses are just amazing and works really well for studio and live jobs.
If somebody in this business thinks that the bass sound on this DVD does not work I think he should go and play football or do something else?
Now we can have peace?
J-O-S
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easy guys,...its good to have diversity.. with anything.. be it music, peoples' opinions or bass sounds,.. personally i am very happy that both Leo Fender and the Wickershams have expressed their ideas of how a bass guitar should sound, look and feel like.. and i am also very happy to listen the music and sound of guys like Stanley or Jaco. Looking at that I think both Alembics and Fenders have their right of existence.
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I can't shake the feeling that you're objectifying something that is fraught with subjective factors. You can't talk about articulation (or indeed muddiness, coming out in the mix, etc) without talking about the bass's role in the context of the other instruments in the mix. I feel that by bass gets better articulation for how I play my bass with the people I play with. So automatically I think that your arguments are not as comprehensive as you would lead us to believe.
Have you thought about the idea that maybe your lack of success with Alembics may have to do with your preference with how the bass, and just as importantly the other instruments, are brought into the mix? I'm not saying that you're not open to different mixing but you may be a victim of your own preferences in some systematic way which you may not be aware of. You may have a quanitifiable set of expectations, which inherently involve a complex relationship between all the instruments, such that Alembics don't fit so well. In this sense, you, as a musical experimenter, are effecting the results of the experiment.
The only reason I say this is I've heard tons of recordings and live stuff where the Alembic came out awesome (off the top of my mind Disco Volante and California from Mr Bungle come to mind). I've had a lot of success playing with others Alembics achieving a sound that we all love. And if it still sounds weak to you, maybe that's just your preference. Maybe you like to hear the bass and the other instruments do other things than I do.
I think the argument that if Alembics were so great, then everyone would be playing them assumes that people play instruments for purely musical reasons. You must admit you know that isn't true. My experience is that most people, whether they know jack about basses or not think Fender is the shit. And I always point them to Sadowsky (also available in passive, ash, etc), which to my ear is just as good at achieving the Fender sound, and you wont have to worry about that neck buckle at the 18th fret in 5 years due to 40 year old construction techniques (if I believe what my guitar tech tells me).
As far as Fenders, you can't just ignore the cultural factors that have led the Fender sound, and indeed the Fender style of playing to be widely accepted. I'm not sure this remotely implies an inherent goodness of Fenders in a mix of any particular type of music, unless you include economic and cultural factors that might increase success (such as playing a certain way with a guitar play who's used to a certain type of bass playing. That might, however, affect people's understanding of what instruments *should* do in relationship to each other.
And once again, I've heard some great jazz bass. But if I was in that person's position I would approach the music in a different way, just based on what I like to hear.
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Fender Basses are simply inferior in construction, wood, paint, electronics, hardware (EVERYTHING).
Unless they are added to extra effects, or pickups were gutted out, those basses are weak, flaccid, and frankly terrible. Everybody I know, with them had changed the original electronics and pickups.
I had never heard anyone in my circles, do this with an Alembic.
Buying a Fender Bass, is the first step toward changing the stock parts. Its almost the natural thing to do...It's even encouraged by most Fender Bassist... Jaco customized his Fender Bass too.
I guess, Fender just can't get it right on the first run...
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I am not pitting Alembic vs Fender, for I already chosen the winner (2) decades ago. The battle is over (far as I am concern...)
However, even feeling the way I do; about my admiration for Alembic basses and the people that make them, I would NERVER go to a Fender club site, and say: Fenders are inferior and here are my reasoning...
In my heart, I think of people at Fender (over there) are happy, and they appear to be happy with their Fenders, LEAVE THEM ALONE!
If I am competing for a bass part, and the other guy uses the Fender, that's different (for I will create sounds yet heard...) GAME ON!
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 27, 2009)
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Hi Blazej, welcome to the board!
Here are a few thoughts about this thread.
In reading through the discussion I've noticed a few posts that appear to fall outside the posting guidelines. I've just reread the posting guidelines and they clearly say to treat all members with respect and kindness. Blazej is a new member here, and while we may disagree with his opinions, that does not mean we should not treat him with respect and kindness. In my view, treating someone derisively is outside of the spirit of this board. Again, it is certainly understandable that we may disagree on various issues, but we can disagree civilly. Derisiveness reflects poorly on our community and does not contribute anything to the discussion.
Blazej; my apologies. While I am sure you expected to find that many of us would disagree with your assessment of Alembic instruments, and almost all of our members here have given their opinions quite civilly, I hope that you have not formed a poor initial impression of our community based on one or two posts. Sometimes people react and post without taking the time to think about what they are saying and how they are saying it. And it's certainly understandable; it's a habitual way of dealing with the world around us that we pick up early on in life. But our community here has found that this board is a much more enjoyable place when we treat each other respectfully, and for the most part, our discussions here are quite civil. We really are a great group of people, sharing a love for music and our instruments. And usually, it's a great place to hang out, no matter what the topic.
If any one of our members is having trouble remembering the posting guidelines, please read them again.
Thanks everyone, and enjoy your day.
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You have to agree that most of the 70ties and late 60ties funk were recorded with fenders not with alembic basses.
TOTALLY FALSE!
Sly and the Family Stone in the 60's, their bass player Larry Gram invented slap and pop, and his main instrument was NOT a Fender bass. It was a Vox Apollo.
Jermaine Jackson (remember him from the Jackson 5) used Gibson EB-0 on every Motown Renaissance Classic Jackson 5 record and in video. After Jermaine went solo, its debut Album was this: This album picture was taken somewhere 1976.
Wow, just imagine the kind of recording equipment was used back in those days, compared to the advances now, and you say your having recording issues in modern times with Alembics?
LOL
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Oh my, I've created a monster...
1. Jan-Olof and Jimmy J - thank you so much for chiming in! An insight from internationally acclaimed musicians with decades of studio and stage experience is invaluable!
2. B?a?ej - siemasz :-)
3. Blazej is NOT a troll. He's a very good recording engineer, highly respected here in Poland (please, no Polish jokes ;-)). However, just like most of you, I disagree with about 90% of his opinions. BUT! I agree that Alembic basses aren't for everything (nor are they for everyone). And yes, his Jazz Bass is a total monster in terms of tone and response to articulation. And yes... it was modified (Badass II bridge, I'm suspecting new pickups, probably new pots) by Blazej himself ;-)
I think that a Fender bass is still a standard worldwide - this basses, especially the Jazz Bass, have a kind of tone that simply fits every kind of music - but, as I've already said, there is much much more to the world of beautiful bass sounds than just the Fenders and Fender-inspired instruments (btw, I've had an opportunity to check out an F-Bass VF5 - this may well be the ultimate modern Jazz Bass derivate!). Everything has its place in the world - thank you Chris (Chrisalembic) for pointing that out :-)
Blazej - one more thing: you've asked about the punchiest Alembic model. While I've never played one, I suspect it might be the Excel, due to its set-in design and ash body. I'd love to check one out. And the Orion EMW (http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_emw.html (http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_emw.html)) would be quite interesting tp try for you, I suspect ;-)
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Yet more pathetic and childish swipes at Fender.
Guys, you paid your money and made your choice ...so why cant you enjoy the finest basses in the world without feeling so insecure as to feel the need to trash other makers? For your information Leo Fender changed modern music, from James Jamerson to Duck Dunn to Jaco Pastorius to Geddy Lee to Eric Clapton to Jimi Hendrix (you reading this Hal?) to Stevie Ray to Buddy Holly to Pete Townsend - the list could easily go on and on and on all day long!
Never underestimate the business sense of factory mass producing a range of affordable instruments with a great, simple design that works great and sounds good. Never understimate the psychological impact on aspiring players seeing their peers making musical history on said instruments!
Alembic ARE the pinnacle of musical electronics, definitely the Rolls Royce of basses in my honest opinion - but most cant afford them. To compare a mostly handmade bass against a mass produced factory one is a ridiculous arguement and it holds no water. Of course it wont be technically as good, but magic can still be made on a simple instrument!
Sure Leo made em cheap and stacked em high to undercut the much more expensive Gibson brand but thank god he did. And who cares if Fender players upgrade their instruments, it makes the instrument more personal to the owner then good luck to them if it gives them pleasure!
This thread displays some very bad examples of musical snobbery imho.
Just remember folks, one mans meat is another mans poison.
Tolerance is a human virtue and would not go amiss here!
John.
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Well said John!!
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You know what Hal,
... you need to upgrade/downgrade your furniture, before I can sitting down and enjoy my tea with you...
Then sit on the oldest thing in my house...
And what is that?
The floor.
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John - these are the words of wisdom. While we all agree that Alembic makes basses and guitars that make us the happiest, Fender (and a good number of other manufacturers) still makes very good instruments which can serve as solid workhorses. I especially agree with the modifying = personalizing bit.
But then I can also see why some of us get so enraged: it's because of the way Blazej states his opinions. He's a knowleadgeable, experienced studio engineer (and a very good bassist too) but he's really opinionated - and it can be hard to bear for some. Just think of Jeff Berlin. Phenomenal bassist? Of course he is. A man of experience? Indeed. But by Jove, the way he expresses his views (which hold some validity more often than not) is a real pain in the a**! ;-)
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I really don't think anyone here begrudges Blazej's right to express his opinion, nor has anyone been rude to him regarding any reasonable opinion he has expressed. The problem, if there is one, stems from his unreasonable, empirically fallacious opinions, and I'm specifically referring to his statements regarding Alembic instruments' lack of articulation and hiding sloppy technique. If I can analogize to the world of sports, it would be reasonable to express an opinion that Shaquille O'Neil is a bad basketball player, but it would be equally unreasonable and empirically inaccurate to express an opinion that he is short. Blazej's comments regarding articulation and sloppy technique fall in the latter category.
Bill, tgo
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Fine.
blazej: you're not a troll.
Feel better?
As for the other statements that you made that are so completely incorrect or just personal bias - well that just like, your opinion, man.
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Yes, Fender Basses (in the heyday) were more expensive than my Sears catalog Fender Copy.
I remember students in my music class (in Jr High) asked before I played a note:
Is that a Fender?... Oh!, that's a copy... ah haaa, man your parents can afford to get you a real bass? haaahaaa haaa!
Some might think those kids were elitist.
I paid for the bass myself, (I wouldn't burden my parents for the money) doing this, gave me a sense of ownership pride.
What they didn't know, I really wanted a Gibson EB-0 with the pickup selector switches. So again, those kids didn't even hit a nerve.
However, after giving my PAN away, my Father bought me Fender P bass (as a birthday gift), and discovered to my surprise my so-called Fender copy (PAN) sounded better, than the original.
HOW is this possible, (I thought as a child).
My cheap Fender Copy, copy sounded better than the original.
Any cheaper Alembic copies out there, sounding better than a real Alembic?
[Crickets chirpings of peace...]
Hal-
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Hal,
Of course there are Fender copies out there better than a Fender - Sadowsky and Lakland make superb Fender copies straight off the shelf that are better than Fenders - but thats missing the whole point.
You cant compare Fenders to Alembics.
I will throw it back to you - are there any other high end, hugely expensive handmade custom basses out there that sound better than an Alembic? You may not think so but there are many Fodera players and Ken Smith players and Zon players etc etc etc who would argue that their axes easily compete with Alembic!
Its easy to trash Leo Fenders basses but wether it sits well with you or not his name is emblazoned into rock, jazz, blues, country history....and very importantly most folk can aspire to the same Fender that their idol uses (think of the Geddy Lee/Marcus Miller models)
Basstard, many thanks for the kind comment but its not really wisdom its simply stating a truth. I agree with you about Jeff Berlin entirely - simply wonderful player but a extremely rebelious and outspoken guy.
Blasej and Hal both state their opinions in their own way and its our right to disagree - but at the end of the day that is their truth.
Who is right and who is wrong? I think that if you hold onto your own truth nobody elses really matters!
John.
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I am not going to choose a bass for it's sounds alone...
The bass can sound like (100) of the top basses rolled into one package; if the bass is uncomfortable on my body, (in any way(s)-shape(s) or form(s)) their creators can keep them.
I want a bass that fits me, and made for me. That company is Alembic PERIOD. Yeah, I am bias. I paid for my bias in cash.
People pay a lot of money for Alembics; and for someone to say Alembics shouldn't had been made, and we still maintain a civil discussion, is a beautiful thing. It shows just how good Alembics are Yeah, I am spending what took me 20 years to save!!!!
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 28, 2009)
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Oh boy, here we go again... Just wanted to sign up for the thread.
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John, those comments can easily be applied to either side of this conflict with slight alteration. Why would owners/proponents of the most numerous basses in the world feel the need to pick on a small boutique maker? No one is blameless here, and as much as some posters may have been aggressive in response, what did Blazej expect with the post he made? Go tell a mother that her baby is ugly. Think you'll get an amicable response? Think if you do that 100 times, you won't get something thrown at you at least a few times? Blazej may not intentionally be a troll, but he did serve that purpose so accurately that I was wondering if he were a real person for a while. The posts were too aggressive to be believable, but sometimes fact is stranger than fiction. There's a world of difference between: Your Alembic basses are almost useless in the studio and I have tried recording Alembics on several occasions and I just can't get the sound I'm looking for from them. Does anyone have experience with the sorts of tricks one needs to apply for a Fender guy to record Alembics well? Part of respecting others is respecting their feelings and opinions and not insulting them any more than you would directly insult the individual.
The two companies are no more in competition than Mercedes and Scion. They both make a product that does the same sort of thing, but the approach and result are so different, there's no comparison or competition between the products. They serve completely different markets.
There's no doubt in my mind that a capable musician working with a capable engineer can get wonderful tone out of either instrument on stage or in the studio. This has been proven over and over. The techniques have to be a little different and the artists need to know their tools, but that's true with anything.
-bob
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When you consider all the endorsement dollars Fender spent on acquiring performers to promote only Fenders guitars and basses (regardless to quality) in the end, consumers are the ones that get played.
They say, you can trust our instruments because this famous person also uses our instruments...
What they don't tell you, is how much money they are paying the performer(s) to keep their mouths closed on quality.
In the end, consumers are the ones that get played.
So, seeing a famous name playing a Fedora, Fender, Music Man, Ricky is appealing to some, but as for me, I look to everyday people, and my research to get the truth -- ruth.
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 28, 2009)
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Well said Bob. It's very easy for us all to rise to someone who appears to being delliberately antagonistic.
IMO, the main reason we see so many Fenders being used in the studio is down to cost and education. I doubt if many of the current crop of 'pop' musicians would know an alembic if it smashed into their face.
on a tangent, if the fender bass was the epitome of bass design, why did Leo bring out the Stingray and the G&L. Cold he perchance have been trying to improve his original design?
graeme (the enigmatic one)
p.s. played 2 huge gigs this week and was complimented on my sound on both occasions. I haven't played my fender live since 1996 ;-)
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Leo Fender created Stingray bass for Louis Johnson.
http://www.videosift.com/video/Louis-Johnson-How-To-Thump-a-Bass (http://www.videosift.com/video/Louis-Johnson-How-To-Thump-a-Bass)
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I've been busy and just got caught up on this thread again.
I think Fenders have their place as has been stated they have a natural low mid bump that is easy to locate in a mix. Many other basses cover this same frequency range but you have to handle it in the mix down. In other words it takes a little work to fit a full range instrument into a mix as opposed to a limited range instrument.
I think Blazej has brought up something several times without realizing it's importance. Especially with this group of people where it is close to everyday discussion. That something is the effect of the body and neck woods on the overall bass sound. To a lesser extent he has also brought up the effect of the bolt on neck. He appears to prefer ash bodies with maple necks. That with a bolt on neck will give you a good low mid range bump. That same combination with a set neck will give you a good low mid bump and better sustain. I know this from experience and comparison since my Fenders are ash bodies with maple neck as is my fretless Orion. This is not the case with my Brown Bass where the tone is much more even across the spectrum. However I can adjust the filters and Q-switches to emphasize this area to pretty good effect. The point I think he is missing is this is not the sound everybody wants nor should we.
My Brown Bass was specifically made with different neck and body woods for a reason. The selection of woods and neck through was intended to provide a certain tone and response. Likewise I picked certain woods in my forth coming Series 1
for their tonal characteristics (others were for their looks). Neither of these basses sound like my Orion nor were they intended to sound all the same. This is why I own more than one bass and have custom ordered two of the three. Here is a link (http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_orionnebula.html) to my Orion if anyone is interested.
As I said above we talk frequently about the type of woods used and how they affect the sound on the basses. We also to a lesser extent discuss bolt vs set neck vs neck through design. Perhaps Blazej doesn't realize these same relationships as we do so assumes Alembics are designed as a one size fits all like Fender basses are.
I think Olie summed it up well above when he said it realy comes down to who is paying who to do what.
As far as the quietness of my preamp goes I'm sure it is quieter than any commercial product out there. Plus they have been hardened to make it through nuclear fallout. :-) The op amps were the same ones used in some military avionics/enemy recognition systems I worked on when I used to work for a government contractor. Not to mention tubes are inherently variable on their quality and tolerances and that can have a significant effect on signal to noise ratios. I think the real reason folks get hung up on tubes is the natural compression that takes place once you start to drive the tube into saturation.
Keith
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I have had Wal, Warwick, Blade, Fender and Alembic (I do still have fender Jazz but with new pups) I'm a little surprised that the main voice against Alembics here has not found an Alembic/Player who can give him exactly what he wants. I can dial all sorts of tones into my MK5 Deluxe. I have used it in studios on a number of occasions, I do understand though, when a producer wants a certain sound for a certain style, sometimes it's sophisticated sometimes it's Fender (not meaning that Fender can't be sophisticated) and sometimes it's upright bass. I try to do them all.
But to my mind here is the most important thing. Of all the instruments I have played over the years I have settled on Alembic because that is the sound that suits my playing so when I hear it back it sounds like me. Other basses have never come close, the point here is that since having an Alembic I have been more encouraged to work on my music (with I think good results) because I'm getting the sound I want. It's exactly the same when amplifying my upright, it's a difficult beast to capture exactly and when the right sound is hard to come by so are the right notes. Somebody said earlier, attempts are being made here to make objective assertions in an otherwise subjective matter. This will make for a circular argument, although I'm enjoying being taken through the various thought processes that result from the matter.
Finally, when employed as a bass player I will do my utmost to give the employer what they want, surely thats a big part of the job, Alembic or no Alembic...
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Blazej's postings also suggest that he has a very specific rig into which he wishes to plug the bass. Even if it is the perfect rig for a Fender, it will simply not be perfect for an instrument with a different character, like an Alembic.
I was also wondering about his preference for vintage gear, which to my mind works best in plug-it-in-and-just-stick-a-decent-mike-in-front-of-the-speaker mode, not with a whole chain of attenuators and the plug-to-jack signal detoriation that comes with it.
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The best records of a great bass sound for me, is capturing the full essence, via open mic to speakers.
I would never in my right mind, pug any bass directly into the a direct line recording channel and depend 100% on the mixing controls.
It works great for the human voice too, being that we are not born with 1/4 input connections
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It's Monday,
The birds will still sing; flowers will still bloom; children will still play; lovers will continue to love; and if you mess around with a bee, you might just get stung.
I am done on this thread... It was fun.
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 29, 2009)
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i thought the way this thread was going we were going to have your theory about humans not being born with 1/4 input connections put to the test.... :-)
This was great reading and a great learning thread.
Jazzyvee
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White_Cloud:
Hal,
Of course there are Fender copies out there better than a Fender - Sadowsky and Lakland make superb Fender copies straight off the shelf that are better than Fenders - but thats missing the whole point.
You cant compare Fenders to Alembics.
I can't compare something I did yet own... I had yet to even understand what an Alembic was -- way back in those days.
Also, there were no elaborate cutting edge Fender copies in 1975-76 in Sears catalogs.
I had a Sears special, for goodness sake, and it was tested better than my real Fender P..
Comparing an Fender to an Alembic? What's an Alembic? (I was only 12 years old...).
The point was... I owned one of those good-old 1970's Fenders and it couldn't compete for my attention, compared to my Sears and Roebuck $78.00 special....
HA hAAAH haaaaah Aaaaah Aaaah AHHaAAAAah eh!!!!
Forgive me for laughing so hard... I hope our new friend laugh with me, for I am not laughing at him, I am laughing at the memory I had as a kid learning a deep lesson where my folks got ripped off by going by going only by a name brand -- They meant well, I assure you... but it happened so long ago, it brought up great memories.
Anyway, like I said, I was mad as heck for giving away my Pan to my cousin. I asked about the bass many years ago, and his mother put it out on the lawn on their garage sale.
It's cool.
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John those comments can easily be applied to either side of the arguement with slight alteration
Bob - that is exactly as I intended! If you look at my thread it is plain to see I am not taking sides at all...merely aplying some perspective as I see it - through my eyes...as I am entitled to as a club member.
Graeme, you have admitted previously here at the club that you have very little experience inside a recording studio...so Im not entirely sure where your concrete opinion on this subject is formed!
Having said that there is an element of truth in your statement, albeit it has not come from your direct personal experience as such.
Hal - all conflicts of all types are at some level based in insecurity and fear. Blasej's comments are rooted in his jealousy/fear of Alembic and you and others react in such a strong way because for some reason you have insecuritys and fear against anyone criticising your favourite brand of bass.
Be confident in your Alembics and rise above such things...after all does it REALLY matter that the whole world doesnt worship Alembic? Really?
And on a final note you may believe that Jaco Pastorius and Jimi Hendrix and all the others may well have been sponsored by Fender to keep their mouths shut and play Fender instruments despite what they really thought of them - but I find it hard to believe that Jaco, for only one example would stick religiously to his seriously beat up old 62 Jazz when Fender AND LOTS OF OTHER COMPANIES actually supplied him with many many shiny new basses!
Keep it real dudes.
John.
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John. If you check my first post on this thread you'll see that I said 'Limited' which is not 'very little'. In point of fact, it may or may not be many hours more than several of our fellow club members but it's obviously not on the same scale as the likes of Jimmy Johnson or John judge, and none of the work I have done has been released, being for my own purposes or as demos for the many bands I've been in. However, the point remains that a good sound engineer should be able to EQ any type of bass regardless. I have recordings from the late 70's where I used my fender and they sound good. I have recordings from the mid 90's using the same bass - different studio and they also sound good. I have recordings from just after I bought my epic made at the same studio which sound good. I have recordings from recent sessions (i.e. in the last 3 years) which also sound good. These all sound great because we've always chosen to spend time with the engineer discussing our requirements. So, just to clear things up, Unless otherwise stated, all the comments I make on any subject on this forum will come from personal experience. And, I have no worries about anyone criticising my favourite brand of bass so long as 'their' comments come from personal experience.
And just so you all know where I stand on this, I'm only commenting on the original post, not hal's ramblings about the merits or otherwise of fenders.
Keeping it as real as I can
Graeme.
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John, I really appreciate what you are saying!! I totally agree.
In a way I dont understand all this agitation about Alembic vs. Fender (or whatever other brand).. I myself really like Alembics and old Fenders.. The are both different for sure, but I really like them for what they each have to offer. A good old Fender for its simplicity, passive tone, sound etc. and the Alembic for its amazing construction, look and sophisticated sound. And I wouldnt think of either superior to the other. Just different. If you know these differences and the qualities of each, you can use it for whatever you want to hear or what is wanted. And though I am a young musician and not yet the most experienced, let me tell you I have recorded with both. And it can be done with both.
Lets face it: great music has been recorded with both, Alembic and Fender. And its a good thing that both behave and sound differently when recorded. Diversity it is. Each one of us is a little different, aint we?
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Chris, you have hit the nail on the head :-)
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My mother had a favorite switch she would use to woop our asses when my brother, and I got into trouble.
Sometimes we would hide it, but she would search all around the house until she found it or replaced it with the same tree origin, and while she was looking for it, we would pray, she received a phone call to interrupt the anger... (sometimes it worked...)
The point I am trying to make, that switch was perfect for her loving hands to hold with out a hitch. There was no fear in her mind of losing her grip while tearing our hides...
Both my brother and I laugh about those days and appreciating her lessons.
Now back to my point... Alembic basses feels good to my hands...
Now, I will add one more thing...
I don't believe Jimi Hendrix or Jaco Pastorius were paid to keep their mouths quiet. Never would my message imply this such a thought.
Also, I don't remember reading where either men ever got paid royalties to endorse Fender or any other instrument.
But like I said, there's a many businesses out there, that plugs the gazillion holes of Fenders quality.
Alembic basses is my switch (Mom would be proud)...
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Mr.Houck, is there a way to selectively block posts based on username?
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Will; I've looked through the settings and I can't see a way to do it.
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If you really need that here, Will, the club would be in poor health.
Anyone who would make contentious or offensive posts often enough for anyone to want to apply a block wouldn't be doing it by accident. That person would have to have nothing of value to add to any conversation, lest you would tolerate the occasional annoyance because there would be enough value to offset it. They would have to have no respect for their fellow members, or they wouldn't intentionally be creating conflict here where it is not welcome. They would have to have no respect for the efforts of our moderator, who gets a bunch of agitation and extra work whenever such a thread arises. By translation, they would have to have no respect for Alembic to risk alienating their customers and making their forums less inviting. I can't believe we have anyone who would maintain such a pattern once they realized what they were doing.
If nothing else, let's try to avoid making too much additional work for our exceptional volunteer moderator.
-bob
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To think that the Alembic forum won't have at least a few zealots is being a bit naive. Try jumping on a Ferrari forum, and stating that they stink because they require premium fuel. See what happens. It will get stuffy real quick I would imagine.
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I joined the Alembic Club not the Bass Club.
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I just briefly skimmed through the last page of this thread, not having been here before, and I only have one question, people, why are you wasting your time? I choose to ignore this guy. I'm off to some other thread.
Peace, JBY
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Graeme, you seem to have taken my comments very personally - which I feel you should understand was not my intention at all.
I have obviously completely misinterpretted your recording experience. I was trying to offer objectivity to this subject (never easy on a Hal thread!)
Anyway, the sky is blue, the grass is green and the sun is shining on sunny Scotland - Im off to catch some rays before the next 10 months of rain...yeeha!
John.
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With all-due-respect White_Cloud, I didn't start this thread.
When reading a book, it's best to start, on the first page, then sequentially to the next.
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bsee: I can't believe we have anyone who would maintain such a pattern once they realized what they were doing.
I respectfully disagree.
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Jacko, you have no idea what you are talking about.
You don't need to trash me, to make your point, or to show your allegiance as a great guy.
But, then again, you might need to do this...
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 30, 2009)
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I think all of the relevant points to the discussion about studio recording have been mentioned (and if they haven't, I'm sure the discussion will come up again). And since at this point the energy of this thread is sucking the life out of the cosmos, perhaps we should move on.