Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Swap Shop and Wish Lists => Seen on craigslist, eBay, and elsewhere => Topic started by: moonliner on December 11, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
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Hey all,
Saw this on Ebay and thought some might find it interesting.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alembic-Toma-Hawk-FUNK-Bass-/320812054489?pt=Guitar&hash=item4ab1e377d9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alembic-Toma-Hawk-FUNK-Bass-/320812054489?pt=Guitar&hash=item4ab1e377d9)
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he's also selling his short scale series 1, hmmmm wonder what happened
~Taylor
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I was thinking the same thing.
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Just because it's listed on eBay doesn't necessarily mean it's for sale. After all, this is Hal we're talking about!
Bill, tgo
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Hmm...... It may be simply that he is happier with his own designed and built basses. Which is a view I'm more inclined to take until he comments.
I just had a look at his ebay ad and he does make reference to his own line of Funk basses so I guess I may not be too far off the mark.
Jazzyvee
(Message edited by jazzyvee on December 11, 2011)
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I wonder if Alembic knew they were building a prototype for Hal's own brand instruments?
Graeme
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Interesting point Jacko ,but if Im not mistaken Alembic have always had a consultancy role in the industry so I don't see why they would be concerned as long as there are no copyright issues. They were provided with a body style to produce and apply their craftsmanship and electronics to and for that they got the price they expected.
Its along the the same lines as that UK American Guitar Company asking Alembic to make some Fender Jazz bass body shaped basses. I doubt whether Alembic would copy another manufacturers design unless specifically asked as they would quite rightly want to produce their own body shapes. ( which I prefer anyway)
Jazzyvee
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. . . Alembic have always had a consultancy role in the industry so I don't see why they would be concerned . . .
Well for one thing, most consultants get paid for their efforts.
However,I doubt the good folks at Alembic are going to lose any sleep. I wish Hal nothing but good luck, but starting any small business is difficult, and breaking into a market like this one which is dominated by major international manufacturers and an untold number of hobbyist builders (who would love to make instruments for a living) must be even more difficult. But who knows? Maybe he'll get lucky and secure an endorsement deal from a famous artist. He seems to be advertising only to funk musicians, but sometimes finding a niche market is the best strategy. I'm impressed that he has the guts to give it a shot, wherever it leads.
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He's also selling his small body Series 1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-Alembic-Short-body-Series-/320812083547?pt=Guitar&hash=item4ab1e3e95b).
Keith
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Hal's Funk Basses.
http://thefunkbassdiary.wordpress.com/category/hals-funk-basses/ (http://thefunkbassdiary.wordpress.com/category/hals-funk-basses/)
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maybe Hal suffer of bipolar affective disorder ?
for a few months we have not heard, and then there is a phase of hyperactivity like it was on his FTC ?
just a hypothesis..
someone has already heard playing bass ?
just a question...
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Kevin, Hal did pay Alembic for their consultation, at least indirectly. It would appear that he paid them to build the Toma-Hawk as a prototype. He seemed to be in such constant communication that he probably got pics and info during construction to get an idea of how things were done as well.
Once he got his hands on it and found that it was good, he was in a position to duplicate the construction if his wood-working skills and wood supply are up to the task. I went to the link that Craig posted, and there doesn't seem to be any information there. The best I could find was a picture that looked like he was doing some final sanding on the neck of a completed instrument.
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Bob, I suppose someone could make that argument, although I suspect that if it had been the CEO of Fender in the same situation instead of Hal, there would be more than a few eyebrows raised when they started production on basses inspired by the design.
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As I recall Hal provided the initial drawings and I seem to recall he even made a mock up of the body that went to Alembic. I did notice that he has changed the peg head shape on his bass.
Keith
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Oddly enough, musicians are a pretty traditional bunch of people when it comes to new designs of guitar shapes, as many a builder has found out to their dismay. However, best of luck to him.
Dave
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I have a suspicion that if a manufacturer approached Alembic with the stated purpose of exploring design ideas that would form the basis of a future line of non-Alembic instruments, that Alembic would interact differently with that person than the average customer seeking a personalized instrument. On the other hand, Alembic features have been copied by others for years now, and no one really starts from scratch when building a guitar. It's really of no consequence to me, and as I've said, I wish Hal nothing but luck.
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I'm with Pierreyves. I just can't take this seriously. A bass company on whose website there is not one single picture of a bass they've produced? I looked up Daryl Hayott. He appears to have at least three different websites. On one he states that Hal endorses him, not that he endorses Hal's basses. And there's a pic of Hal's two Alembics, no other instrument. Why am I not surprised?
Bill, tgo
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Clearly, the mere mention of Hal's name elicits strong emotions in some quarters. To each his own, but for cryin' out loud, folks, aren't we just people first and foremost? For bass players and bass manufactures large and small, the success of one is the success of all. I personally wish Hal all the best, no matter what he chooses to pursue.
The legacy of Alembic speaks for itself, unchallenged among the pantheon of bass manufacturers. Let's just enjoy that, shall we? Especially as we approach the end of the past year and prepare to embrace the new and all the wondrous things that await.
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What are Pierre's qualifications for making a psychiatric diagnosis on a fellow club member? There are a lot of 'headstocks' around here that are a little 'off center', that's what I think makes this forum special.
I wish Hal all the best.... I wish I had the time to launch my own instrument line!
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Funk basses / Hal-burgers ?.....the fender jazz & the musicman stingray has got that Funk bass sound cornered. can you imagine marcus miller putting down his Jazz for a Hal-burger? hell no!
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Clearly, the mere mention of Hal's name elicits strong emotions in some quarters.
Well, as they say, you reap what you sow.
/Enough said.
//Except for perhaps to note my best wishes to each and every member of this forum for health, wealth, and happiness. And not necessarily in that order.
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Wow, you can buy both his basses for $2000 less than just the TOMA! That is a bargain right there! LOL!
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I'm thinking if he makes a go of this, he'll probably need to hire someone to handle Customer Service.
J o e y
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Guys,
Seriously.....let it rest. I've been in touch with Hal through other arenas. He has built a number of basses on the Tomahawk body style. He is not fly-by-night and a number of bassists have expressed interest in his instruments.
As far as whether or not he was up front in his intentions with having Alembic build the original....I'll wait for Mica, Susan, Mary, or Ron to complain. Until they do, it is what it is. But remember, the body design is Hal's.
For the record, one of my basses that gets the most comment and questions was designed by a guy named Jon Clarke. He first had Chris Stambaugh build one for him. Then he had Jacob Marchlewski build one for him and was more satisfied with Marchlewski's product, a 4-string fretless. I asked Jon if he would mind if I had Marchlewski make a fretted 5 for me. Jon was not only accommodating, but he set up a website for me to track progress (ala Alembic's FTC). Point is, even though Stambaugh built the first one, it is still Jon's design to have built wherever he wants.
I think Hal is in the same position, provided he doesn't pinch Alembic's headstock designs or electronics designs.
Peace,
James
(Message edited by Malthumb on December 17, 2011)
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Prices seem to keep going up on ebay... I haven't posted my thoughts on this before... but are you F-ing kidding me!?! His bass is a regular Series bass with a modified body shape. The contours, the way the sides are carved, the heel, is all ALEMBIC.
From what I remember reading about the toma hawk and watching the updates as the build went on, Hal was just a normal customer who was excited about his custom instrument.
Seems to me like he regrets paying the ridiculous price (a fault of the economy's, not our beloved Alembic's) that a custom Series II instrument costs and sees this as a way to make back his investment?
From the pics on his site it just looks to me as if hes having a whack at building a hippie sandwich neck through, which up until the point I see it on the site, has just been gluing, cutting and sanding, so who knows how the final product will even turn out... especially considering he probably won't be able to put Series electronics on his basses, which means they likely wont be anything in comparison to an Alembic... which makes me wonder why anyone would pay so much for them....
It all sounds a little crazy to me... just saying.
I built my first A style Mandolin this month, I'm not about to make a blog/website advertising myself as a luthier, talking about the start of a new business, and posting up photos of the build process. If I did I would sell the first few instruments I built for next to nothing. I could imagine if he wants 18,000 for the toma hawk, he probably wants a ridiculous amount for a funk bass
I also wouldn't order a custom build based on my specs, then re sell it as my own.... thats what custom builds are... the customers specs!! It doesn't mean you are the maker!!
Sorry if anyone disagrees with me, that's just my 2 cents.
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just in case, if I would thinking about to buy one of his basses (not the alembic..), where the hell i should ask or look for it?
His webside is just a joke, no basses, no offers, not even something in progress, only bla bla about funk bass and The beginning of a new era for basses, isn?t that a bit too pathetic for something nobody has seen before?
And what makes the phantom so funky like nothing else, the alembic electronics? ( very funky indeed!), the bodystyle, the spirit of the luthier?
Correct me, if I?m wrong but usualy people start there company and the advertisement for it on a real product instead selling a custom bass made from a major company for a ridiculous price.
Sorry, but that drives me crazy.....,
Peter
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Is this going to be the next new (what a joke THAT is - where's the warranty?) Alembic Series that keeps popping on ebay with a high dealer price like the burled Triple-O? All it needs is some pictures taken from the second floor of a Days Inn or Motel 6 balcony and he's all set!
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Hmmmmm...All I can say is that I hope that Hal's product is successful and I will not assinate his character, pass judgement concerning Hal's vision. This is America where vision, creativity and hard work are still valued.....Imagine if FORD, the Wright Brothers succumbed to all of the negative comments,.. let's not forget Leo Fender (RIP),... what if he gave up his vision and courage to build the electric bass because some people said it wasn't plausible or stupid or the bass costs way too much and no one would play it because it's not a real bass like the Double Bass? I say to all, send out the positive vibrations to Hal in hopes that he is successful because his bass will yet be another canvas for all of us to choose upon to paint (so-to-speak) our expression of our love of the Low Frequencies if we so desire!!!! Peace to all!! From Chalie Holmes
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I'm with the good wishes to the guy. I don't know him but I think to imply that he's ripping someone off is a bit much. I have some alembics that look an aweful lot like the cutaways of a Pbass with the lower bout of a J and the headstock of a thunderbird flipped around. I also read somewhere something about Alembics early triple omega was ghost built anyway. I love Alembics and everyone here does too but who can look at an Elan or Europa etcetera body style and not see a fender design? Last time I looked the flying V peghead came out in like what the 60's? but I'm not complaining all of these features that I associate with other manufacturers (businesses that I'm not a fan of) Alembic does better and they have the best designs in the world and they are great people to deal with.
It was his drawings Alembic built from if I'm reading these rants right, and Alembic put their electronics in it. they set a price that he agreed to and that was that. it's his to do whatever he pleases right? he could smash it on stage or change a few things and make his own line....if that's what he wants. He and we know it's going to be pretty tough competition to survive making instruments. What are the chances of userping Alembic? Pretty much every bass player dreams of getting ONE Alembic before they die, how many builders have that kind of street cred? Let's wish him luck.
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As I said in the other thread on this topic....You can like Hal....you can dislike Hal......You cannot question his conviction. Here's some of his in-progress product....
(http://club.alembic.com/Images/395/118715.jpg)
Peace,
James
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OMG!!!!.....
It's a fleet of funk, flying in TomaHawk formation!!!!!
>>>> I also read somewhere something about Alembics early triple omega was ghost built anyway.
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Here are my thoughts on the subject. One I usually avoid. And, ironically, my longest post ever:
Regarding it being unethical (or whatever) for Hal to sell the design that Alembic built, I don't think it remotely is. He dreamed it. They built it. I can't imagine they would care in the slightest if that shape came rolling off every assembly line in Korea. Now I co-designed the first Little Darling with Alembic. It was based on Kevin's original Balance-K. Those have become standard models. I think if we tried to do the same thing, there'd probably be a different response from Santa Rosa!
I doubt very much Hal approached Alembic for the sole purpose of prototyping the instrument he intended to produce and market. There are plenty of Luthiers who could have done that at a fraction of what he must have paid for that monstrosity (forgive me). I speculate, rather, that he had a vision for a bass for himself. Upon realization of that vision, he decided to go much further and start his own revolution.
As for the asking price on ebay. That's just delusional. When you have one of these instruments made, they should come with a towel. Because if you ever decide to sell, you're gonna wind up taking a friggin' bath! And the more heavily customized it is, the bigger that bath will be. Especially if you stray completely from what a traditional Alembic looks like. Let's face it. We're already a very limited market. Make these things too personalized and you'd better plan on keeping it forever.
If the Toma Hawk line ever caught on as the next greatest thing, then the prototype built by Alembic surely would be valuable to someone passionate about Toma Hawk basses. Until then, though, it's simply a used Series II bass without a whole lot of mass appeal.
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Hal spoke of himself one day (FTC thread), about his paranoia: this word I did not invent, I quoted Hal... but what I can say is that, with the ideas of megalomania, he joined the bipolar disorder. I know, tailpiece and headstock disorder, new pathology ?
is to give too much importance to this customer...
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I'd be able to take this whole thing more seriously if Hal had actually built a completed a bass BEFORE he started marketing. Leo Fender didn't start going to music stores selling Broadcasters before he had even completed the first one. There is a LOT more to building instruments than cutting up some wood and gluing it together. If it were that simple, I suspect most of us would never have paid what we did for a new Alembic. I am the current caretaker of #10, a '76 Series I, a '77 Series I 12 string, the #8 Tribute, and my '07 custom Further. In comparing these instruments, I can assure you that Alembic learned a thing or two along the way. Building a great instrument takes a lot more than a different body shape, a bunch of hyperbolic prose, and a website.
Bill, tgo
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The photo shows 19 basses in progress, made from some beautiful woods. Looks like an act of love to me.
An eBay listing is not necessarily a serious attempt to sell something. This one might be intended just to announce that these basses are coming.
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I cannot hate Hal or put down the things he tries to acheive, and also I have rarely come across an individual who takes things on so passionately.
Good Luck to him and his endeavours
If he does not harm the Wickershams, the Alembic brand or anyone else I say Go For It!
slawie
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In considering these posts I think any new member must keep in mind that Hal has offended many members of this forum, from a variety of nationalities and dispositions. In my time I've visited many guitar and bass related forums on the web. I've found this one to contain some of the most polite, intelligent, and thoughtful people I've ever encountered on the internet. However, Hal has personally insulted me on more than one occasion, and accused me of having a viewpoint that I find to be morally deplorable, and untenable. I'll say no more than to argue that those who know me, know better.
Moreover, I know that one of our most esteemed moderators (whom I dare not name), has also suffered accusations of ill behavior. These accusations are ill founded, and baseless.
I have no doubt that Hal is a passionate person, and that he is committed to his goals. I admire him for these qualities. I also hope that he learns how to deal with other human beings who do not share his perspective amicably, as he has so far failed in this context to do so, and as always,I continue to wish him good luck. I would be pleased to know him better, as he seems to be a very unique person. I hope one day we might meet in person, so that we might understand each other better.
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One other thought is that it will take a year or two after the first instrument is completed before anyone knows if they are any good. If there are any flaws in the wood or workmanship, it may take a while for those to show. If there are none, it will take a while for that to be proven. I hear about the occasional custom bass with a twisted neck or some otehr issue because the wood was a bit too green and/or the luthier didn't have those years of experience. I don't know his background with regard to woodworking or if he has a seasoned pro working with him, but it is suprising based on the above taht he would be making so many instruments in parallel this early. If there's a fundamental flaw, that's a lot of dollars in time and wood that may not work out.
As far as Hal's design, the only thing that might make it questionable at all from a copyright perspective would be the way I recall it being described. I may be mistaken here, but I thought his description was that he started with a Small Standard and then cut away a little bit more for better forearm/elbow positioning. If that was the case, then the Toma-Hawk could be argued to be a derivitive work rather than an original design. I wonder what the hardware and electronics will look like. It would be a stretch to expect him to fabricate his own hardware or electronics a la Alembic.
There is a limit to the number of shapes one can make within the space of a guitar body or headstock. It's hard to argue that anything is a copy unless it's pretty accurate. I don't think Alembic is going to start marketing Toma-Hawk bodied basses, so it probably doesn't matter to them. In any case, I think Alembic has better things to do with their time and money than play legal games.
Personally, I don't like the shape, but I haven't played one. While I don't care if he fails or succeeds, the hoopla has me interested to follow along to see what a completed instrument looks like and how they are received.
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I take back most of what I said after seeing that floor full of basses... but I still say it looks like a room full of Stanley clark small bodies...
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By the way, it is VERY important to keep in mind when we all discuss and share our opinions... that there is no hate!!!
Not all comments and opinions can be of a possitive nature, but it doesn't have to imply any annimocity when someone happens to say something negative. Hal I'm sorry if you think I was hating on you, I was just telling my opinion based on what information I had to go on.
Bill you hit the proverbial nail representing my opinion on the head here... There is a LOT more to building instruments than cutting up some wood and gluing it together
This is my whole point here as well.
Hal... I'm not trying to hate or say your efforts aren't great or worthy of respect and admiration... they most certainly are! No one else here at the Alembic Club has a room full a projects such as impressive as that... with such nice quality of woods... but I'm just saying that until one is completely finished, that thats all they are... nice pieces of wood glued together.
I wish you luck, and hope they set up and all play well.
However, I don't think youll ever sell your Alembic built Toma Hawk for 18,000, and unless you have a completely different idea when it comes to hardware, electronics, etc... your basses will be taken as pretty much just Halembics
No hate. Just my opinion, as incorrect as it might be. To each his own.
****But as a note*** Sending me 5 emails of pictures of you with famous bass players and saying stuff like Marcus Miller don't hate me... doesn't really help your cause as a credible luthier... especially since... I dont hate you or anyone else!
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Remember all the Photoshopped pics of Hal's bass? Notice how the grain of the buckeye piece on the bottom left runs through the maple & ebony?
Peter
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Peter, I'd forgotten - stuff like the Mona Lisa, Darth Vader, Jiminy Cricket, Napoleon, and Speed Racer all playing a Tomahawk! rotflmao
Bill, tgo
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This thread has been derailed in regard to the bass on eBay and as James (malthumb) suggested above, let's let it rest. Several moderators have discussed this and we agree that it would be a good resting place.
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agreed
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In the interest of letting it rest ...
One thing left out in this conversation is this - job creation.
If Hal is indeed producing these basses, I'm guessing he's employing people to help him, or at least using parts from other manufacturers (pickups, hardware, etc.). In this sense, Hal may be a job creator (someone has to make the parts, pickups, hardware, etc.). If that is the case, I think it's a good thing regardless of what we may each individually think about Hal's funk bass. He may be creating jobs due to his venture into the world of bass guitar manufacturing. Not to be political here, but I think anyone who creates jobs is doing a good thing given our nation's current economic situation. I hope that's the case with Hal.
Would I buy one? No. I don't care for the body shape (and I'm not much of a slapper/popper in any case), but I can see where it would be a nice instrument for those who do a lot of slapping/popping.
As for selling his Alembics - good luck on that as well. And I mean that in a positive way.
Alan
(Message edited by ajdover on December 18, 2011)
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from his e-bay link:
Brand: Alembic Series I/II Hybrid
Style: Toma_Hawk FUNK Bass
Model: Toma_Hawk FUNK Bass (Designed by Hal).
Body Type: Toma_Hawk FUNK Bass MPN: 0914053
just one more question: Designed by Hal,
does that mean, everybody was ordering an Alembic
custom bass in the history can call himself a designer for alembic,does Alembic mention Hal on there webside as a designer ?
I just remember a handfull of people involved to
that business and I?m talking about heros like Stanley Clarke, Marc King, John Entwistle .....
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Maybe he honing his skills so he can maybe get a job at Alembic one day.
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Stop. Please?
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Yes, I'm willing to make this stop. I think there's been enough attention here.