Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: s_wood on August 26, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
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Earlier this week agents of the Federal Fish and Wildlife Service raided Gibson's factories and offices in Nashville and Memphis looking for evidence that Gibson knowingly used illegally imported hardwoods in violation of the CITES treaty. It's the second such raid in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html)
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Why would they risk using illegal woods to build basses that sound like Gibsons do?
It's all about the HEADLINE. if they were interested in justice , they would raid the certified supplier, but then no one would know because it's not a recognizable name.
I guess this means Olympic is safe, huh?
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Yeah, I was reading into this issue some more,and With all the regulations that were specified.... I wouldn't travel with any instruments outside the country, if you want to bring them back in.
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Makes that guitar Taylor built out of a fork lift pallet a few years ago seem like a good idea!
Bill, tgo
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I imagine that older guitar companies, like Alembic or Gibson, have pre-CITES stashes of now-banned woods (like Indian rosewood) laying around. If challenged, how do they prove that the wood is lawfully possessed?
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I think you mean Brazilian rosewood,Steve. It's been controlled for years; everyone uses Indian - if you see a rosewood acoustic these days, it's Indian.
Peter
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In this case it looks like it involves a shipment of rosewood improperly imported from India, so Indian Rosewood it is. From the original WSJ article:
But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.
Unless they're getting Brazilian rosewood from India.....
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The thing that is curious is that USFW seems to be acting independently and using their own interpretation of foreign laws, as from what I understand the country in question has not filed a complaint, and Gibson also has the support of several conservation organizations.
From the sound of it, everything centers around the fact that American workers, and not Indian workers finished the wood??
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Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique B?sendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork?which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.
Situations like this one are the ones that particularly raise my ire. This company made efforts to observe the law correctly, and were penalized as a consequence. The message here seems to be that you are better off violating the laws than trying to work within them. It also gives the impression that regulatory agencies are more concerned with revenue than compliance.
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I just reread the article linked, and it doesn't mention rosewood. It does say the name of the case is United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms. Here (%20http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/world/north-america/top-us-guitar-maker-accused-illegal-indian-wood-imports-559) is another article that clearly states that the wood in question is not rosewood. But my previous post was addressing Steve's statement Indian rosewood was banned under CITES, which is the case of Brazilian, but not, AFIK, Indian, which I believe is controlled but not banned.
Peter
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It also gives the impression that regulatory agencies are more concerned with revenue than compliance.
Surely not! Next you'll be telling me that cops give more speeding tickets to out-of-state plates because they're more likely to just pay rather than come back go to court!
Peter
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Actually, the article you link to in your last post specifically mentions rosewood as one of the woods of concern.
A month later, agents observed Indian ebony and rosewood delivered to a storage facility for Gibson. The raid followed and workers were sent home.
(Message edited by hydrargyrum on August 30, 2011)
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Have no doubt that I'm familiar with dealing with regulatory agencies. I work in the environmental field, and the last thing you want to do is seek guidance from an associated regulatory agency on how to be sure you're properly complying with regulations. It's a sure fire way to receive a inspection on the topic and any number of possibly unrelated fines. It still upsets me that this is the way they prefer to operate.
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I can't get the link to work now, but I'm pretty sure it says they observed the delivery of both, seized the ebony.
Peter
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http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/world/north-america/top-us-guitar-maker-accused-illegal-indian-wood-imports-559
According to legal documents US Customs agents detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India in June. A month later, agents observed Indian ebony and rosewood delivered to a storage facility for Gibson. The raid followed and workers were sent home.
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Peter,
The case United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms is from the raid that happened two years ago.
Paranoid thought:
Gibson is non-union shop and has supported the RNC/GOP. Compare and contrast to other guitar manufacturers, like Martin.
Is Alembic a union-run shop?
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Yeah, those law enforcers and regulatory agencies are always intervening to help their secret buddies, the trade unionists.
As if.
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There is no secret to their Buddies. Just look at what Boeing is going through. They want to create jobs in South Carolina, but the adminstration would rather protect the union and end up seeing those jobs forced abroad instead. Real smart, NOT!
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I just caught a warning from the mods for suggesting that voters could impact the way environmental laws are enforced. I'd tread lightly here guys.
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We're veering close to politics here, guys, so I'll But speaking historically, except for a brief period under FDR the US government & pretty much all state govts have always been hostile to unions - frequently to the point of bayonets & gunfire, and always with the force of law & the courts. Whether you think that's good or bad, it is undeniable fact.
Peter
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Peter,
Well, yeah, of course. But how could you say the current administration is hostile to unions? Seems like it's just the opposite...one of the lessons of history is the way sides change, the oppressed becomes the oppressor, etc.
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Let's not forget that the Lacey Act was signed into law by William McKinley, a Republican!
/Note to all concerned that this post is completely tongue in cheek, and not intended for serious consideration. This in no way reflects my political views (which hold that if aliens cannot be elected to run our government, we should instead create a race of radioactive super vegetables).
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Interview with Gibson CEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9K8IDGUTrQk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9K8IDGUTrQk)
I believe that these guys are out to get us.
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Just watched the above video, unlicensed guitars??
What if I put it in its case? Will I be charged with concealed carry without a permit.
Chuck
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That's right...no public performances without your official artistic license.
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WELCOME, My radioactive super vegetable overloards. I churn dirt as an expression of my servility!!
If all shops were run like the mothership, there would be no need for the U#1()#$.
Cause everyone(but Bill and a few others) would be busy playing Bass
Nick ;
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Peter is right, you're venturing way too close to politics. I've just posted a long response to comments in the similar thread in the Misc. section; and I'm too tired to address the comments here or even finish reading them all. While it is understandable that we are concerned about this issue, we are too easily drawn into seeing this as one side against another. It should be obvious that there are historical and current reasons why we need to be concerned about illegal harvesting of wood. And it should also be understandable that regulating the activities of large corporations can be difficult, and that necessary regulation can be burdensome.
I'm going to bed. Please read my comments to the other thread and consider dropping at the very least the political parts of the discussion, subtle and overt, or dropping the discussion altogether.
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Dave:
Amen.
I didn't begin this thread intending to start a political discussion. There are plenty of other forums where that is best done. FWIW, I thought the story was interesting because of the interplay between ecology and instrument building. There is a popular notion that, as regards to some tone woods, most of the good stuff is gone. I wonder if that's true?
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My Grandfather was a carpenter, and he was of the opinion that the quality of lumber had greatly diminished over his lifespan. I'm not sure if this translates to instrument woods. I am happy to say that I have some particularly large blanks of cherry and walnut he left me that I know are well over 150 years old now that date from the good era, and I plan on making use of them someday when finances allow. I definitely won't be taking them out of the country when that happens.
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Too funny, when you consider that we sell assult rifles to third world countries.
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Sustainable steel, organic aluminum...
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Not sure if this is relevant, but I am a baseball fan and the old-timers often say that today's bats break more often because the ash used these days is not as hard as was the case a generation ago. I wonder if this is something that is actually true or another case of everything was better when I was a kid.
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I don't know, Steve - I just know nothing sounds worse than a hit with an aluminum bat!
Peter
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Use a tree, go to jail! lol
Bill, tgo
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Peter:
Right! Aluminum bats are just wrong.
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BB Core is now the required Aluminum bat used in Youth League and High School at a minimum.
This reduces the B Factor closer to the 1.000 figure which is what a wooden bat performs at. The previous generations of Aluminum/ Hybrid bats were producing B Factors of 1.025 or somewhere around there. The new requirements lower the value of AL bat performance reducing issues with balls being hit towards infielders.... Believe me I know my son is a Varsity pitcher and I\ve seen a few interesting hits fly past some of his teammates while pitching.... skip a beat!
By the way is that steel produced from scrap at the mini-mills or the virgin product produced at the integrated Steel Mills?
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I know in the case of redwood and southern yellow pine the quality is not what it was 100 or so years ago. For redwood the old growth is much more rot resistant than the younger harvested stuff you see today. Likewise for yellow pine the older stuff is much harder than the new growth you can buy today.
Keith
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Alembic, Martin and others don't seem to be having these problems. Sounds like Gibson has been pretty sloppy in their documentation or purchasing practices. Given their QC for the last couple of decades I am not surprised.
A friend of mine shelled out big coin for a Les Paul twenty years ago and it would never tune. Because the bridge studs were drilled 1/8 off of spec! The dealer promptly refunded his cash and returned the guitar to Gibson with an appropriately nasty accompanying letter. My friend bought a US-made Hamer.
And the sound an aluminum bat makes when striking a baseball is right up there with fingernails on a blackboard and styrofoam itch as one of the most annoying sounds on earth.
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Sounds like Gibson has been pretty sloppy in their documentation or purchasing practices. Given their QC for the last couple of decades I am not surprised.
True that.
Peter
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Maybe Bose could develop an aluminum bat that cancels out the tink and replaces it with an appropriate ash bat sound from a small driver hidden in the knob. Its right up their alley!
An Alembic maple/ebony/purpleheart bat would be SICK!!!
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I just watched the interview with the CEO of Gibson and he paints a slightly different and disturbing slant on this story. The issue he mentions has to do more with an Indian law that specifies that all woods sourced in India must be completely finished in India. This applies to ibony fretboards and Indian rosewood tone woods that may be partially finished and then shipped to the USA Gibson factories for final fitting. Since I?m sure, as the CEO mentioned, these woods have to be cleared by Indian customs and US customs something smells kinda fishy about this whole thing. As mentioned in an earlier post, the statute says that if you buy an instrument that was illegally manufactured then once you own it the onus is on you, the buyer, to NOT sell this instrument or it would be a federal crime. Not sure how this whole thing will flesh out but it all sounds very weird. Here?s the link to the interview (hope this is ok to do?) There are some parts that are hard to hear since it sounds like the factory is right next to the Memphis airport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0&feature=player_embedded)
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From the local NASHVILLE SCENE newspaper:
http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/does-gibson-guitars-playing-the-victim-chord-stand-up-to-scrutiny/Content?oid=2656825 (http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/does-gibson-guitars-playing-the-victim-chord-stand-up-to-scrutiny/Content?oid=2656825)
. . . . oh Henry, it's just all Les Paulitics !
J o e y
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As a reminder, the posting guidelines state that discussions of a political nature should be avoided. And over the years, many of our members have expressed satisfaction with this guideline.
It is of course understandable that, because of its direct relation to the building of guitars and basses, and because of the involvement of one of the most well known and popular instrument builders, this particular story would be of interest to many here on this club. And there are of course wider issues beyond musical instruments that are important elements of the story. It is understandable that many here may find the story important.
However, as has been evidenced by the way the media, pundits, politicians, and others have approached this story, it is too easily dragged into the mud of divisive, angry, partisan political rhetoric.
Therefore, as moderator, I respectfully request that adherence to the posting guidelines be observed.
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Music, and Politics quite often go hand in hand.